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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: rickayelm on April 29, 2010, 01:10:13 AM

Title: Rune Magic
Post by: rickayelm on April 29, 2010, 01:10:13 AM
Under Gards write up in Our World she has sponsored magic runes. But I can't seam to find this anywhere.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: KOFFEYKID on April 29, 2010, 01:15:37 AM
Thats because her writeup is almost completely speculation, so we (including the game designers) dont really have any info on it. It would be nice to have more detail on it though, if only because it seems like it could be a really cool sponsored magic.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: iago on April 29, 2010, 01:29:56 AM
I would have liked to get into it more, but Jim has been pretty cagey about the details of how it works. I get the sense that the "sponsor" of the runes -- if that's really the right way to model it -- is
(click to show/hide)
(Changes spoiler.)
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Sygyrd on January 22, 2011, 06:31:11 AM
Well, I can't tell you what Jim would say, but as for the employ of runes in Norse and Germanic magic...  The oldest futhark inscriptions were often very much like modern tagging... with a magical twist.  They'd often say something like "I, Thorvald, wrote/made this."  But here's where the archaeology gets interesting for our purposes... sometimes they'd say something tantamount to "I Thorvald made this, and if you destroy it you'll be cursed."  Sometimes the curses were fairly detailed.  This archaeological record meshes very well with the Norse literature left to us from much later times (writ Dark Ages.)  Take the Icelandic sagas which are replete with examples of runes being written upon things to enchant them in one way or another.

So... my son is playing a character with sponsored rune magic in my campaign.  His sponsor is Hel (cool living-dead Elric-like background story there), so basically there's little difference from Unseelie magic as far as the kind/flavor of effects he can achieve.  Every spell has a thaumaturgical element in that he must write, in runes, the effect he wants to achieve upon the thing he wants to use to do it.  So basically he can enchant or even curse items quick and dirty (so long as he keeps Hel appeased.) 

For Einherjar belonging to Freya (she got half of them,) instead of rune magic (if they practice magic) they would probably practice seithr... although it was considered effeminate, even if men did practice it. (Look it up on wikipedia.)  The flavor of the results of her magic would be almost identical to that of Seelie magic.  For Einherjar belonging to Odin, I'd let them choose between rune magic and seithr (Odin practiced both.)  Odin sponsored magic would be a bit more involved.  I'd allow any enchantment of war materiel, things involving leadership, divination, healing and ectomancy (and maybe even necromancy outright.)

Things I consider necessary for any Einherjar (I don't know if Jim has addressed them as I'm only on Dead Beat right now) are: Feeding Dependency (YS 190) as  the Einherjar restored themselves nightly by feasting; Supernatural Recovery (YS 186), the catch being you have to eat to repair yourself (I might even go Mythic Recovery here); and Living Dead (YS 164) because that's what they are after all... I'd have them appear more human-like the less hungry they are and more corpse-like the hungrier they are.

My question, having not read all the books, is... would an Einherjar practitioner of sponsored magic be subject to the White Council's Laws of Magic, since they aren't really human?  I'd think not.

And if Jim does read this, he should know that I found the Dresden Files (and love them) after having learned of it from playing SotC... AND I've bought all of his books since then.  So the DFRPG is helping his books' sales as well as the other way around. :)
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on January 22, 2011, 07:15:13 AM
   There aren't any gamerule write ups for it, but the power itself is illustrated in the short story Heorot Where
(click to show/hide)
This is the WoJ effect of it, but in my games I'd go more with the traditional Rune magic approach.
    The user scrawls a mystic rune in his own blood to invoke the effect of that Rune. With limitations such as, cannot be used to break the 4th law (The Norsemen and their gods where very much about freedom and bowing to noone. Norsemen didn't even bow to their gods, insted considering them equals. Even Odin himself could not outright order others around.), Cannot be used to thwart fate (Narrators call on what is or is not fated to happen).
    And such compels as, must kill Giants or trolls, cannot back down from a fight or show cowardice of any kind, must seek revenge for fallen friends and family no matter the cost, etc.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Peteman on January 22, 2011, 07:19:03 AM
   Cannot be used to thwart fate (Narrators call on what is or is not fated to happen).
    And such compels as, must kill Giants or trolls, cannot back down from a fight or show cowardice of any kind, must seek revenge for fallen friends and family no matter the cost, etc.

From what I remember, Harry was fated to die in that alleyway when Miss Gard intervened.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Mal_Luck on January 22, 2011, 07:28:47 AM
I did a write up for Rune Magic with with some others users (Luminos, KOFFEYKID, and Tsunami) shortly after Even Hand came out.


Rune Magic [-4]: Standard Sponsor Benefits, 12 Rune Item Slots (equivalent of Enchanted Item Slots) if paying at -4 (A -1 cost discount for is given if the player has Thaumaturgy, though it looses two rune item slots due to the reduced cost. There is no discount for Evocation). These slots can be used to emulate any Evocation or Thaumaturgy effect, but may only be used for Rune Magic Items or Consumable Runes (although Enchanted Item Slots may also to pay for Rune Magic Items or Consumable Runes). A Rune Magic Item works and functions the same as an Enchanted Item (pre-prepared items) and a Consumable Rune works and functions the same as Potions or other Consumables (one-use runes). No channeling (all magical effects are done by using the Rune Item Slots). Others may use Rune Magic Items without using an extra slot to make it usable by others. Refinement may be bought for additional slots.

Rune Item Slot = Enchanted Item Slot
Rune Magic Item = Enchanted Item
Consumable Runes = Potions/Consumables

I just felt the distinction needed to be made if a magic user took the power, so they can't be wily nily and use the slots for their own magic items.

Effectively, this is Ritual (Rune Crafting) + 2 Refinement and a couple bells and whistles.

It probably needs some work, but it was a good enough that a couple people outside my own group liked it enough to use it.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Richard_Chilton on January 22, 2011, 08:30:29 AM
If I recall correctly, Gard talks about certain runes taking days to fashion, and for at least one of them she required an exotic component.

Richard
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Tsunami on January 22, 2011, 10:25:31 AM
If I recall correctly, Gard talks about certain runes taking days to fashion, and for at least one of them she required an exotic component.

Richard

That was the (Even Hand Spoiler)
(click to show/hide)

Anyways, i think it's an extreme example. More common rune magic would be a lot simpler.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: vultur on January 22, 2011, 10:34:00 AM
All the rune magics we've seen (lightning-bolt in Small Favor,
(click to show/hide)
in 'Heorot', and
(click to show/hide)
in 'Even Hand') have instant effects. So I think Rune Magic is (in game terms) a way to pre-prepare evocations and store them as physical runes.

The
(click to show/hide)
is probably some sort of thaumaturgy-style cost (like inflicting consequences on yourself, or taking time...) Gard paid to boost her effective Lore for that rune magic.

I would not actually treat it mechanically like other sponsored magic; it's not something boosting spells you're casting like Hellfire or Soulfire, nor is it cast more-or-less like regular magic like Seelie/Unseelie Magic given to a Knight who's not previously a spellcaster.

Instead, I'd think it'd be something like
Rune Magic [-2???]
You can prepare Runes. Preparing a Rune is mechanically identical to preparing a thaumaturgic spell; the Complexity of the Rune is equal to the number of shifts of effect stored + 2 if it must be actively used, or shifts of effect + 4 if it is set to trigger on a pre-determined condition. The Rune stores a Spirit Evocation of the appropriate number of shifts; a character can incorporate a number of shifts equal to their Conviction with no extra cost - above that, the character takes a Mental Stress hit equal to the number of shifts above their Conviction.

 The type of Evocation (block, attack, maneuver, counterspell) must be decided while the Rune is being crafted. If the Rune is to be set to trigger on a pre-determined conditions, all decisions (number of targets to affect with an attack, whether to use a shield as a block or Armor) must also be set at time of casting; if the Rune will be actively used, this is unnecessary.

The Rune must be inscribed on a physical object. If a Rune is set to trigger on its own, the trigger must be an obvious action performed within line of sight of where the rune is placed. If the Rune is used actively, it does not cost Mental Stress as casting a normal Evocation would. When the Rune is activated, it needs no control roll and (for attacks or maneuvers) uses the rune-maker's Discipline.

A character can have up to (what's an appropriate number?) in runes stored at any one time. Others may use Runes prepared by a character, but they still count against this total until used.
 
Example: Sigrun Gard (Great Lore) seeks to make a Rune that will launch a Weapon:8 magical bolt when anyone opens the locker the Rune is placed in. This is a Complexity 12 Rune, so she must make up 8 points of Complexity. When she has performed the appropriate preparation, her Fair Conviction means she takes a 6-stress Mental hit, requiring her to take a moderate consequence.

Gard attempts to make a Rune that the bearer can activate to provide a 4-shift veil against Awareness; the Complexity is 6. When she has made up 2 points by preparation, her Fair Conviction gives her a 2-stress Mental hit.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Mal_Luck on January 22, 2011, 11:36:56 AM
I think mine does more or less everything you just described in a much simpler fashion.  ;)
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on January 22, 2011, 04:33:23 PM
From what I remember, Harry was fated to die in that alleyway when Miss Gard intervened.

   That was in Dead Beat and if you'll recall, she intervened with a battle axe, not magic, and even then she said there would be consequences.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Mal_Luck on January 22, 2011, 04:41:42 PM
From what I remember, Harry was fated to die in that alleyway when Miss Gard intervened.

This is covered by Gard's Supernatural Senses and probably unrelated to her Rune Magic.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Sygyrd on January 22, 2011, 05:09:57 PM
Mal_Luck I really like your system.  I would allow Consumable Runes to be written on the go... this is sponsored magic after all.  Writing down your spell effect in runes on the fly can be a pain in the rear in combat, but given you have a god for a sponsor, it should be possible.

That sponsor thing is still very important.  WHO your sponsor is would greatly effect what kind of spells you were throwing around.  (I see very little fire effects coming from Hel.  Surtr on the other hand well...)  AND I don't see this being done without a sponsor.  Odin payed a very high price for rune magic.  If any mortal went around dabbling in it without a sponsor, I can see Odin squashing him real quick (that is if he just didn't disallow the magic to work in the first place.)
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: sinker on January 22, 2011, 08:29:35 PM
In heorot didn't Gard also have runes inscribed on her axe? Wouldn't that imply that she's also capable of creating actual enchanted items, other than the potion-like effects we predominately see?
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Mal_Luck on January 22, 2011, 08:31:48 PM
In heorot didn't Gard also have runes inscribed on her axe? Wouldn't that imply that she's also capable of creating actual enchanted items, other than the potion-like effects we predominately see?

Covered by my rendition of Rune Magic ;D
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Tsunami on January 23, 2011, 01:18:50 AM
Mal_Luck I really like your system.  I would allow Consumable Runes to be written on the go... this is sponsored magic after all.  Writing down your spell effect in runes on the fly can be a pain in the rear in combat, but given you have a god for a sponsor, it should be possible.
Given that consumable runes are basically potions, you can simply declare them in the same way. No need to be able to write them on the fly.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Drachasor on January 23, 2011, 05:11:56 AM
Frankly, I am not sure Rune Magic is something that needs to be sponsored.  It doesn't seem much different from Thaumaturgy, with refinements taken for more focus and enchanted item slots.  Ms. Gard does put up wards and the like around Marcone's home does like anyone with Thaumaturgy could do.  Did everyone forget that?  Her consumable runes are just potions, and so it isn't hard for her to have them be quite powerful.

Seems to me she has something like Thaumaturgy, with Refinement x 2 for more item slots, possibly more refinement than that for a focus item to make her better at creating runes so she doesn't have to invoke as many aspects to buff them up.  With Lore 5 she can make 12 one-time effects with 10 power, and that's pretty darn potent.  One could argue her lore might be 6 or so though.

Anyhow, there's no particular need for her to have sponsored magic, I don't think, though I suppose being able to grab some debt to invoke an aspect wouldn't hurt.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: toturi on January 23, 2011, 07:35:11 AM
Anyhow, there's no particular need for her to have sponsored magic, I don't think, though I suppose being able to grab some debt to invoke an aspect wouldn't hurt.
Maybe there's something about runes that make it more effective in certain ways, perhaps bypassing catches.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Drachasor on January 23, 2011, 08:20:56 AM
Maybe there's something about runes that make it more effective in certain ways, perhaps bypassing catches.

One could perhaps write up something like that.  Traditionally, from what I've read, runes have been used for divinations and placed on weapons and such.  That tracks quite well with being used as thaumaturgy overall.  If one wanted to go beyond that, one certainly could, but I am not sure there's a lot of lore regarding that (and there's nothing indicated in the books for what it is worth...not that I recall, though I am reading them again right now).

Any sort of rune magic would definitely need to be able to do wards and the like, since we know Ms. Gard did that.  She also did some divinations in Dead Beat (it's referenced when Harry is picked up initially by Marcone).  Given that it also has traditionally been used for magical items, I think starting off with full access to thaumaturgical effects makes sense.  Pick the right specializations and flavor, and away you go.

I am interested in this too, since I am make a norse-themed character (a son of Thor, in fact, though he uses some magic and isn't meant to be a clone of Thor).  Right now I am leaning towards writing up some sort of sponsored magic (though its source would be internal) kind of like Soulfire, but for Lightning (probably weaker since I don't have 5 points to spare...Lesser Soullightning or something).  Though I might just go with pure thaumaturgy.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Tsunami on January 23, 2011, 01:24:02 PM
Frankly, I am not sure Rune Magic is something that needs to be sponsored.  It doesn't seem much different from Thaumaturgy, with refinements taken for more focus and enchanted item slots.

Agreed, it doesn't need to be. But depending on how you construct your character, and how you interpret rune magic in your game, it fits sponsored magic quite nicely.

If you want some form of divine component, like Sygyrd mentioned, and have the magic be connected to Odin or others in the north pantheon, then sponsored magic makes a lot of sense. And in the case of Ms. Gard it fits very well, with her being a Valkyrie and all.

On the other hand, Rune magic could simply be an expression of mortal magic. Carving and casting runes, just like maybe some Asian wizards would use calligraphy in their magic. In that case it really is nothing else than Thaumaturgy and item crafting.

Both ideas have merit.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Tbora on January 23, 2011, 01:42:01 PM
What I would consider is this providing your GM permits.

You can take Ritual: Runes (Basically its crafting + precreated thamaturgy effects so like potions but can be way more potent)

And then with that you can take Sponsored Rune Magic, at a -1 discount as if it were full thaumaturgy, the reasoning being one is just an extension of the other, and its not like its providing anything new besides extra potion slots, a boost in complexity, and the ability to take Sponsor Debt.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: sinker on January 23, 2011, 06:34:26 PM
Anyhow, there's no particular need for her to have sponsored magic, I don't think, though I suppose being able to grab some debt to invoke an aspect wouldn't hurt.

I think the reason why we got on this track is because her character write-up in Our World lists her as having sponsored magic (runes), but you're right, there's no real reason why it couldn't be interpreted in a number of other ways.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on January 23, 2011, 09:57:28 PM
   Also, it would be Sponsored Magic because of where Runes come from. Odin learned the Runes by sacrificing himself to himself for power and wisdom. He then taught what runes he saw fit to the other gods and chosen followers (By the Lore he kept one Rune to himself). So all Rune magic is really sponsored magic from Odin.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Drachasor on January 23, 2011, 10:15:14 PM
   Also, it would be Sponsored Magic because of where Runes come from. Odin learned the Runes by sacrificing himself to himself for power and wisdom. He then taught what runes he saw fit to the other gods and chosen followers (By the Lore he kept one Rune to himself). So all Rune magic is really sponsored magic from Odin.

That's NOT the lore on it at all.  You are right that this is how Odin learned runes (the lore is a bit inconsistent regarding him vs. other gods and mortals, but he at least believed you needed an element of self-sacrifice and perhaps to die to learn magic, and so that's what he did).   He didn't go around teaching the other gods.  It's why he, an Aesir, knew runes.  The Vanir were all well versed in runes, and there were mortals versed in magic as well.  There's nothing that supports the idea that such magic came from Odin (in fact, he was somewhat mocked because magic was believed to be unmanly) and I don't think there's any lore indicating he taught anyone magic (none that I am aware of anyhow).

As best I remember, the books give no indication that Gard has Rune Magic because Odin bequeathed it to her.  I know Our World has her having sponsored Rune Magic, but I'm of the firm opinion that this was the wrong way to handle it.  She should have instead have 7 refresh spent on Thaumaturgy and Refinements and a Lore of 5.  That easily lets her have a focus that provides +4 power (with a specialization for crafted item power or perhaps a special specialization on runes if one could define the scope of that right) and 12 magical items.  One could downgrade this to 5 Refresh and then she has to invoke aspects to power up her runes (probably saner).  Or go with 6 refresh and that lets her have her axe be a little magical and some other utility beyond just a box of runes.  It also lets her setup wards and do divinations as mentioned in the books.  Anyhow, she has no evocation and seems to have full access to all aspects of thaumaturgy (I suppose she might not have conjuration and summoning, but there's no real reason to think she can't do that if she wanted....and we'd be stating people pretty odd if we insisted they can't do something just because we haven't seen it).
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Sygyrd on January 24, 2011, 03:37:02 AM
Any einherjar is, by definition, going to bear the mark (to use a game mechanic term) of Odin or Freya at the very least.  If any of them are casting, it only makes sense that they do so at their deity's sufferance.  There's no way that the dead would be allowed to walk the world without the deity they owe fealty to sending them out... sponsoring them.  Norse dead might have a conversation with you (especially if you're Odin) but they don't escape... just ask Baldur. 
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Drachasor on January 24, 2011, 06:02:50 AM
Any einherjar is, by definition, going to bear the mark (to use a game mechanic term) of Odin or Freya at the very least.  If any of them are casting, it only makes sense that they do so at their deity's sufferance.  There's no way that the dead would be allowed to walk the world without the deity they owe fealty to sending them out... sponsoring them.  Norse dead might have a conversation with you (especially if you're Odin) but they don't escape... just ask Baldur. 

That's a very different thing from sponsored magic.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on January 24, 2011, 07:35:55 AM
That's NOT the lore on it at all.  You are right that this is how Odin learned runes (the lore is a bit inconsistent regarding him vs. other gods and mortals, but he at least believed you needed an element of self-sacrifice and perhaps to die to learn magic, and so that's what he did).   He didn't go around teaching the other gods.  It's why he, an Aesir, knew runes.  The Vanir were all well versed in runes, and there were mortals versed in magic as well.  There's nothing that supports the idea that such magic came from Odin (in fact, he was somewhat mocked because magic was believed to be unmanly) and I don't think there's any lore indicating he taught anyone magic (none that I am aware of anyhow).
Quote
   The lore does imply that Odin taught the runes to men gods. And it flat out say that he taught it to humanity. Runelore comes from the Havamal, which, is infact, the words of Odin (its later paraphrased in the Sigdrifumal where the runes where taught by a fallen Valkyrie formerly in service to Odin).
   Your assessment that magic was considered unmanly is also flat out false. The Runes where never considered unmanly. and, in fact, almost every man, woman and child knew some runelore. Seidr is seen as somewhat unmanly by modern heathens, but that is in Inference based on the fact that the lore only shows women using it (nowhere does it say its an exclusively female art). And the Lore says that priests of Freyr act in an unmanly fashion, but thats a different point.
 
As best I remember, the books give no indication that Gard has Rune Magic because Odin bequeathed it to her. 
   Actually, they give a pretty good indication of exactly this. In Heorot
(click to show/hide)
    Then in Changes
(click to show/hide)
     Then, as an aside, in Aftermath, we learn
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: sinker on January 24, 2011, 08:17:59 PM
The important thing about whether this is sponsored magic or not is really where the power comes from. It doesn't matter who taught her, because mortals can teach each other "sponsored magic" (like in white night
(click to show/hide)
). What really matters is the question is she getting it directly from another source (like odin), or is she using knowledge taught to her to use her own power. And honestly it works fine either way, pick the one you like and go with it.

The original topic of this post however is "What does Sponsored Magic: Runes look (and feel) like?" so perhaps we should think about that.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: vultur on January 24, 2011, 11:38:00 PM
Quote from: Nyarlathotep5150
Your assessment that magic was considered unmanly is also flat out false. The Runes where never considered unmanly. and, in fact, almost every man, woman and child knew some runelore. Seidr is seen as somewhat unmanly by modern heathens, but that is in Inference based on the fact that the lore only shows women using it (nowhere does it say its an exclusively female art). And the Lore says that priests of Freyr act in an unmanly fashion, but thats a different point.

I think Drachasor is talking about this bit from Lokasenna [old public domain translation, so take it for what it's worth] -
(Loki is replying to Odin's mocking him for being effeminate)

"They say that with spells in Samsey once
Like witches with charms didst thou work;
And in witch's guise among men didst thou go;
Unmanly thy soul must seem."

But, yes, this is seiğr and not rune-lore. Runes were indeed used on (or as?) charms / amulets, and probably in divination, but this kind of magic doesn't have the effeminate association seid has (which does seem to have been pretty strong even in the Viking Age, though it's really hard to find anything reliable...)
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: jadecourtflunky on January 26, 2011, 12:06:05 AM
(like in white night
(click to show/hide)
).
Sorry to go off topic, but that happened in blood rites.
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: sinker on January 26, 2011, 12:42:59 AM
Ahh. I can never remember which book that was and always pick one at random. Thanks
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: Richard_Chilton on January 26, 2011, 05:02:27 AM
It's understandable.  Both books have scenes set in the same location.

Richard
Title: Re: Rune Magic
Post by: newtinmpls on February 18, 2011, 08:15:44 AM
Another thing to think about is that while Gard's magics are being called "runes"; when I think runes, I'm usually thinking the futhark 'alphabet' that is the same batch o symbols you see on zillions of new age plastic "rune sets". And I don't think that the runes that have been used in the books/stories actually appear there.

All that being said, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to use them, I'm saying this is an excuse to open up the idea of runes/symbols - sponsored or not. There is a Polish & Ukranian tradition of decorating eggs at easter, and a lot of the symbols have symbolic meaning. That could be a type of runes used by a PC or NPC too.

Dian