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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: KOFFEYKID on April 28, 2010, 06:24:22 PM
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Do you actually think lawbreakers (the stunts) are actually needed? Ive been thinking that they are a crutch of the system, and shouldn't be modeled the way that they are. I think a social impact, and a aspect impact should be enough for most lawbreakers (the people, not the stunt).
What do you guys think? Can you punish a player adequately enough without having to also force a power on them?
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If trying to run game in the Dresden Files universe I find them very helpful. If you're off doing your own take on urban fantasy and wizards I suppose you could pretty easily drop them.
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Was posting this in the other thread
I'm thinking about scratching the Lawbreaker stunt and keeping the political ramifications (ie Warden will want to kill you).
Need to ponder it more...
Deleted it there and copied it here, after seeing the new thread...
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One of the major issues I have with them is that from a purely role playing standpoint, a player who wants to have a shady past (maybe a 3rd lawbreaker like Molly), has to start off with this penalty to their character's mechanical power. This can cause difficulty within the party balance, Players A, B and C are going to have more points to put towards their goals than Player D who has the lawbreaker. That means if Player C and D are both spell casters player C will invariably be stronger than Player D. Also, I hate that you get a "bonus" that you are discouraged from using.
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Sure, if you like.
The Lawbreaker stunts have te great and sigular advantage of actually portraying how breaking the Laws more than once or twice directly leads to inevitable Warlockdom.
But if you want to reflect that with mandatory Aspect changes instead, that should work out fine, though for most games you'll need something in the way of guidelines to decide when a character has gone so far they need to be made an NPC, but those aren't especially hard to come up with.
One of the major issues I have with them is that from a purely role playing standpoint, a player who wants to have a shady past (maybe a 3rd lawbreaker like Molly), has to start off with this penalty to their character's mechanical power. This can cause difficulty within the party balance, Players A, B and C are going to have more points to put towards their goals than Player D who has the lawbreaker. That means if Player C and D are both spell casters player C will invariably be stronger than Player D. Also, I hate that you get a "bonus" that you are discouraged from using.
Ah! I actually have an alternate way to handle this issue: I allow the Lawbreaker bonus to apply to two things other than breaking the Law (and in both cases the character in no way suffers for it):
1. I apply it to doing things that would break the Law but don't due to a technicality. I'd give Harry his Lawbreaker bonus to killing Ghouls and vampires with magic, for instance, or a reformed necromancer his bonus to raising an animal zombie.
2. I also apply the bonus to figuring out what other people with the same Lawbreaker stunt are likely to do. There's an incident in Turn Coat that sums this up best...
In both cases, you're that kind of person, and that means something.
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I'm going to go with Dead here. You can do away with them if you want to and use other means, but it's really a mechanic that is indicative of how the world works. If you break the Laws, you, more likely than not, will end up being a warlock. The slide from being a more-or-less self-controlled character to becoming basically a monster is represented by the refresh. If you do away with that, then there's little reason not to go full bore warlock route trying to redeem himself. However, if you play the game as written, he'll basically be compelled more and more to act along his nature which will end up with him sliding.
Basically, it takes a lot of punch out the Free Will vs. Nature slider that is, to me, one of the greatest things about how the system imitates the world of Dresden.
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What if we have a morality score, sort of like World of Darkness's humanity. If it drops to 0 you become an NPC. Its equal to Half your refresh level, and every time you do something undeniably good, a purely Good act, you can remove one point of Morality Damage.
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What if we have a morality score, sort of like World of Darkness's humanity. If it drops to 0 you become an NPC. Its equal to Half your refresh level, and every time you do something undeniably good, a purely Good act, you can remove one point of Morality Damage.
Seems overly mechanistic and kinda tacked on. I'd just go with you becoming an NPC when more than half your Aspects reflect Lawbreaking. You can avoid this almost indefinitely by changing those Aspects back to more normal ones at every Milestone...but it'll need to be justified.
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Power corrupts, but as it is you are discouraged to misuse your power...
Need to rephrase that.
If in the RPG you (the PC) misuses your power (break one of the 7 laws) you get an penalty/get from an power standpoint weaker.
Basically there is an counterweight against the corruption of power.
So the players arent as much lured to the dark side.
If you want that, you should keep the Lawbreaker stunt (if I keep the stunts, that would be the reason).
What are the consequences of scratching the stunts?
You will probably get more law violations.
The Wardens will still kill the lawbreaker if they catch them (but the PC can try to argue with them [self defense])
The law violations will still show in Soulgazes. (Aspect changes)
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What if we have a morality score, sort of like World of Darkness's humanity. If it drops to 0 you become an NPC. Its equal to Half your refresh level, and every time you do something undeniably good, a purely Good act, you can remove one point of Morality Damage.
Sounds like something you could try out and let us know how it goes.
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Do you actually think lawbreakers (the stunts) are actually needed?
I've had the same concern you did: punishing someone for a choice that otherwise creates good RP. I had two solutions in my head:
1) Extend the bonus to related actions to "tempt" the player. (Just as others have come up with)
OR
2) For characters coming into play with it, Skip the Refresh cost and have them take an Aspect. They get punished in game, but get Fate points as their reward, the equal of other characters. They can exercise a bonus by invoking it (representing the temptation and slippery slope). Break the Law again and they get the Stunt.
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I like the idea of extending them to things that would otherwise be breaches of the Laws.
Honestly, I mostly see them as something for NPCs. That sorcerer who doesn't have the ability to keep growing in skill can still be dangerous by getting a +1 or +2 to all acts of magic to blow you up or control your mind.
If a player wants to take the things, that player is choosing to play with fire. That fire has a lot of power, but it can definitely burn the hands of someone using it.
Gaining such a thing after char-gen seems to me not to be a punishment so much as the result of a choice the player made knowingly. I mean, to break the Law against killing, the player must choose to kill someone as part of taking them out.
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Some points why I don't like the stunts:
1. If I use Char Building resourses I expect to use those abillities in the game, but if I do that I get harrased/killed by wardens.
2. If I build the PC with lawbreaking in mind, I don't have a problem with free will (buy the Stunt for -2).
But if I use an Aspect for Lawbreaking...
Let's use the juvenile Warlock from Proven Guilty as an example:
He brocke the Law many times so he has the aspect: My wish is your Order.
So he wakes up --> compel: get someone to bring you breakfast to the bed.
Afterwards he wents to school --> compel: borrow the new car from the neighbor, even if you have no driving licence.
In the school: compel the chearleader to go with you...
etc.
So if the warlock does those things he get many fatepoints, but if he wants to change? How long can he get by without running dry?
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Some points why I don't like the stunts:
1. If I use Char Building resourses I expect to use those abillities in the game, but if I do that I get harrased/killed by wardens.
2. If I build the PC with lawbreaking in mind, I don't have a problem with free will (buy the Stunt for -2).
Uh, not to disagree with the possibility of using Aspects, but, well, I really think my solution helps:
Ah! I actually have an alternate way to handle this issue: I allow the Lawbreaker bonus to apply to two things other than breaking the Law (and in both cases the character in no way suffers for it):
1. I apply it to doing things that would break the Law but don't due to a technicality. I'd give Harry his Lawbreaker bonus to killing Ghouls and vampires with magic, for instance, or a reformed necromancer his bonus to raising an animal zombie.
2. I also apply the bonus to figuring out what other people with the same Lawbreaker stunt are likely to do. There's an incident in Turn Coat that sums this up best...
In both cases, you're that kind of person, and that means something.
As for the Free Will thing, bear in mind that by the official rules every three times you break a Law you need to change an Aspect to reflect that Broken Law.
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Honestly, I mostly see them as something for NPCs. That sorcerer who doesn't have the ability to keep growing in skill can still be dangerous by getting a +1 or +2 to all acts of magic to blow you up or control your mind.
An aspect would do the same. First the aspect get compelled, then the aspect invoked to better kill.
Gaining such a thing after char-gen seems to me not to be a punishment so much as the result of a choice the player made knowingly. I mean, to break the Law against killing, the player must choose to kill someone as part of taking them out.
Or the GM concedes...
[/quote]
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Ah! I actually have an alternate way to handle this issue: I allow the Lawbreaker bonus to apply to two things other than breaking the Law (and in both cases the character in no way suffers for it):
I like this. A character could walk a fine line, fighting the good fight but still drawing up their shady past.
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I like this. A character could walk a fine line, fighting the good fight but still drawing up their shady past.
Yeah, if you're a killer, well, you should be good at killing things and at understanding killers (both things Harry is demonstably good at, BTW). Those can both definitely be used for good even if you never actually break the Law again.
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Basically, it takes a lot of punch out the Free Will vs. Nature slider that is, to me, one of the greatest things about how the system imitates the world of Dresden.
This. We had very clear design goals -- canonical, setting-driven design goals, based on information from Jim -- which informed their implementation. Do away with them if that suits you for your play, but if you do I doubt you could credibly consider your game to be a Dresden Files game despite the other cosmetic similarities. :)
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But if I use an Aspect for Lawbreaking...
He brocke the Law many times so he has the aspect: My wish is your Order.
Note I'm recommending Aspect ONLY for creation, and ONLY for characters that "slipped". (See Title Character of Game :)) Basically you're giving them the Stunt without reducing their refresh, with the proviso that breaking the law again WILL reduce their refresh. Pro story, minus balance penalty, maintaining ongoing rules.
Playing someone that will happily break the law again doesn't bring up any desire from me to shelter them from the costs.
Playing someone that has a problem but is trying to get over it sounds awesomely like an Aspect. (Expecting to fail is a different problem). As far as getting rid of the Stunt, see the Redemption discussion in the book. In terms of Aspects, that's character evolution, but I'd expect it to be a rare thing regardless. The Aspect may alter, but the stigma should remain.
(How many times does an NPC mention that Harry has the stain of Dark Magic? like, twice per book)
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Do away with them if that suits you for your play, but if you do I doubt you could credibly consider your game to be a Dresden Files game despite the other cosmetic similarities. :)
Does this apply to all variations, or just the ones that remove penalties for being a Lawbreaker?
I ask because I remember reading the creation and seeing Harry get Lawbreaker and thinking "Cool concept, but very few players are going to elect to hurt their character strength out of the gate like that when they can hurt their characters in other, more interesting ways with Aspects that DON'T cost them 1 refresh for no real benefit at all".
I love Lawbreaker as a rule of the universe. I expect it will encourage players to avoid the easy-but-destructive paths and PCs to behave more...human. I don't like the cost at creation, so I expect if someone ACTUALLY expresses interest in playing a character like Harry (not talking about a casual killer) that I'll not dock their refresh...unless they cross that line again once play begins. To me that seems like a meta-game mechanic to encourage players to have "flawed" characters rather than a departure from the core concept. Am I off-base?
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An aspect would do the same. First the aspect get compelled, then the aspect invoked to better kill.
They both work in tandem. Remember, giving up the 2 refresh gives you a blanket +2 to break the law yet another time without spending fate points. The Aspect gives you fate points for killing, and it lets you spend them to be even more capable. Casual killing accrues fate points with a bonus if you're taking out helpless characters, and those points can go a ways toward making you really damned dangerous against people who can defend themselves.
Or the GM concedes...
Which, again, you need to accept.
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I ask because I remember reading the creation and seeing Harry get Lawbreaker and thinking "Cool concept, but very few players are going to elect to hurt their character strength out of the gate like that when they can hurt their characters in other, more interesting ways with Aspects that DON'T cost them 1 refresh for no real benefit at all".
I love Lawbreaker as a rule of the universe. I expect it will encourage players to avoid the easy-but-destructive paths and PCs to behave more...human. I don't like the cost at creation, so I expect if someone ACTUALLY expresses interest in playing a character like Harry (not talking about a casual killer) that I'll not dock their refresh...unless they cross that line again once play begins. To me that seems like a meta-game mechanic to encourage players to have "flawed" characters rather than a departure from the core concept. Am I off-base?
This is why I like my own House Rule...no inconsistency (since the benefits apply to everyone), but a PC who has it won't feel they wasted their point of Refresh.
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Does this apply to all variations, or just the ones that remove penalties for being a Lawbreaker?
Well... Specifically the erosion of your refresh, pushing you closer to being a monster that follows the dictates of its nature, is what makes the Lawbreaker stunts work in a way that maximally reinforces the themes and setting details that need reinforcing. The fact that they provide benefits for breaking that law again is the side-effect, not the main point.
Eroding refresh constrains fate point supply which gives the "darkened" aspects more teeth because it's harder to resist their compels, and you get even more juice when you give in, getting the bonuses from the ability beyond just the fate point.
To deconstruct this, I'd say alternative implementations that still have a goal of keeping things as true to the setting as possible should try to achieve these aims:
- Gradually turn the character into more of a monster (the aspect alteration effect in the current implementation does this, as does the erosion of refresh)
- Increase the power of the character in ways that enforce the breaking of the law in question (the bonuses provided by the Lawbreaker abilities achieve this)
One alternative I could see would be, maybe, to treat the Lawbreaker benefit like a point of Refinement that the character must take (but which the GM decides how is spent, maybe). Or imposing the acquisition of some kind of Sponsored Magic: by breaking the Law in question, you've "let in" something dark and malevolent that's starting to express itself through that power -- if you went that route, you'd get to model the side-effects through the sponsor debt mechanic instead. Both methods would require the "darkened aspect" thing to happen at some point. So that's where my brain goes.
But the Lawbreaker implementation that exists felt like the right fit based on what we learned. ;)
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When I have time I'll try to min/max the bonus from lawbreaker.
DFRPG hasnt many boni to increase the range.
If nobody does the work before me, I'll post an Focused Practioner Mindcontroller.
Uh, not to disagree with the possibility of using Aspects, but, well, I really think my solution helps:
I'm still listing pro and contras...
As for the Free Will thing, bear in mind that by the official rules every three times you break a Law you need to change an Aspect to reflect that Broken Law.
thats for real? So Cowl and Co all have only lawbreaker aspects?
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They both work in tandem. Remember, giving up the 2 refresh gives you a blanket +2 to break the law yet another time without spending fate points. The Aspect gives you fate points for killing, and it lets you spend them to be even more capable. Casual killing accrues fate points with a bonus if you're taking out helpless characters, and those points can go a ways toward making you really damned dangerous against people who can defend themselves.
At this Point I'm not so shure if we don't get a little to much boni here...
Which, again, you need to accept.
I was thinking, the GM tells you. "Looks like you blasted that human per accident into the afterlife. Take the Lawbreaker stunt."
Where you thinking the same?
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I'm still listing pro and contras...thats for real? So Cowl and Co all have only lawbreaker aspects?
Well, remember, it twists the Aspects not necesarily changes them utterly, but yeah, every one of their Aspects is tainted by their Lawbreaking.
Here are Cowl's listed Aspects (aside from his High concept: Dark Wizard, Darker Agenda, which seemed redundant to discuss), and what Laws could've Tainted them off the top of my head:
Plans Within Plans (Third or Fourth Law, easily. Maybe Seventh depending.)
Nigh Invincible (First Law, at least potentially.)
Allies of Convenience (Any, really. It's a lack of empathy Aspect.)
Cautious, Not Timid (Probably Third, Fourth, or Seventh.)
Magic From Beyond (Seventh, obviously.)
Deliberate and Methodical (Could be either First or Third or Fourth or Seventh depending on context.)
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More importantly, Cowl's aspects don't talk about any other part of his life. They are all about how he is a master villain planner type who treats people as expendable resources. Because that's all he is at this point.
EDIT: I'd also add that the whole twisting of your aspects, the erosion of free will, all of that stuff -- that's most important as a *player character* experience. I wouldn't hold too strong to the idea that every NPC who breaks Laws aplenty must be 100% by the book as far as those side effects go. They're already well past the pale, well into being a confirmed and unrepentant monster. The whole erosion/twisting thing has the most bite -- in terms of storytelling, in terms of at the table experience -- when it's happening to someone who hasn't entirely gone over to the Dark Side yet. :)
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At this Point I'm not so shure if we don't get a little to much boni here...I was thinking, the GM tells you. "Looks like you blasted that human per accident into the afterlife. Take the Lawbreaker stunt."
Where you thinking the same?
You still need to accept the concession or decide to take the person out that way. The player does get to choose whether their character kills someone or not.
Besides which, concessions aren't what was going to happen but worse. They're someone giving up some of what they would have lost in a way that is more convenient to the person taking it than taking the time to beat them senseless.
The GM just saying, "Oh, and you accidentally killed someone even though your roll doesn't indicate it, nor has any part of the fate point economy pushed you to making this decision," doesn't fly. That's not how that works.
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When I have time I'll try to min/max the bonus from lawbreaker.
DFRPG hasnt many boni to increase the range.
If nobody does the work before me, I'll post an Focused Practioner Mindcontroller.
I'm still listing pro and contras...thats for real? So Cowl and Co all have only lawbreaker aspects?
Here is the best I could do for optimizing a lawbreaker, note that this guy is going to most likely be an NPC in most games, unless you slowly accrue lawbreakers.
COST ABILITIES
-3 Evocation (Spirit, Water, Earth)
-3 Thaumaturgy
-2 Kemmlerian Necromancy
-2 Lawbreaker (First)
-1 Lawbreaker (Third)
-2 Lawbreaker (Fourth)
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-13
Evocation Specializations:
Spirit (Power +1)
Thaumaturgy Specializations:
Necromancy (Control +2, Complexity +1)
Focus Items:
Necromancer's Staff (Necromancy Control +2, Spirit O. Power +2)
Rank Skills
5 Conviction
4 Lore, Discipline, Endurance
3 Presence, Alertness, Athletics
2 Deceit, Rapport, Intimidation
1 Guns, Melee, Fists
Necromancy Evocations (Using Spirit as the Base Element) +11 Control, 8 Shifts of Power for a Necromancy evocation aimed at killing somebody.
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Though, to be more rounded it would be a refresh 16 character
COST ABILITIES
-3 Evocation (Spirit, Water, Earth)
-3 Thaumaturgy
-1 The Sight
-0 Soulgaze
-2 Kemmlerian Necromancy
-2 Lawbreaker (First)
-2 Lawbreaker (Third)
-2 Lawbreaker (Fourth)
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-15
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I've said before and i still stand by it that the mechanical aspects of the lawbreaker stunt are mostly redundant. Other then the bonuses it gives you , which more or less equal out refresh wise, What it dose is every x times you break the law change one of your aspects to in some way reflect that law. If a player is responsibly managing there character then if there repeatedly breaking a law they will be useing there minor milestones to change there aspects to reflect this, and if there not, its fully in your rights as st to "insist" so we don't need a thing on there character sheet enforcing this. Now do we need lawbreaker as a negative refresh mechanic to tell us when a pc has gone to far? Personally i would say no. the hellfire using pyromancer with full lawbreaker first is a playable charecter mathematically [-8] , but i don't think anyone would say hes "less far gone" then a wizard pc who maxed out on refinement and made "one mistake" it may be a bit more challenging with out any numbers to say when a character is to far gone. but with responsible, honest players and storytellers all of the current affects of the lawbreaker stunts can be [and probably should be] simulated with out ever putting a single lawbreaker stunt on a character sheet.
I know my voice doesn't count for much but i strongly disagree with Iago on this point. if it applies to pcs, it should apply universally to npcs as well. I also cant think of a npc who this should apply to that it doesn't conceptually seem to, i would probably add a bit of a house rule that once you have changed all of your aspects to reflect your lawbreaking you dont have to change them anymore. and i might allow them to eventually be changed to be something else. but even then they'd likely have to in some way reflect the law violations that are now a part of your nature. . Ive even argued that all of morgans aspects probably reflect the first law. This is obviously just my interpretation and opinion though.
EDIT: I'd also add that the whole twisting of your aspects, the erosion of free will, all of that stuff -- that's most important as a *player character* experience. I wouldn't hold too strong to the idea that every NPC who breaks Laws aplenty must be 100% by the book as far as those side effects go. They're already well past the pale, well into being a confirmed and unrepentant monster. The whole erosion/twisting thing has the most bite -- in terms of storytelling, in terms of at the table experience -- when it's happening to someone who hasn't entirely gone over to the Dark Side yet. Smiley
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Aaaand, I'm out. Make the game what you will, folks. :)
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Do you actually think lawbreakers (the stunts) are actually needed?
I just can't resist the Star Wars quote for this:
Beware the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will
Personally, I like the stunts. They force the player to consider the implications of the character's actions (i.e. possibility of the character becoming an evil NPC). They also give a bonus to make future law breaking easier. The more times you break a law, the easier it becomes to do so (a great temptation). Like the Dark Side of the Force, the law breaking (i.e. gaining stunts) becomes easy and seductive.
As a GM, if a player ever did lose his character due to law breaking and managed to evade the Wardens, I would definitely bring the character back as a bad guy.
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I'm away from the pdf, but here my focused lawbreaker pc...
-2 Channeling (Spirit)
-2 lawbreaker killing
-2 lawbreaker thrall
-2 lawbreaker mindreading
-1 refinement + 2 Focus items
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-9
Superb Conviction and discipline
Great Lore
+ 4 Focus Offensive Spirit
Does lawbreaker add to conviction and discipline?
If yes, that would be an +11 mental attack with an +15 to hit.
Without using aspects...
Start without the lawbreaker Stunts and the GM may even let you play that thing.
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I'm away from the pdf, but here my focused lawbreaker pc...
-2 Channeling (Spirit)
-2 lawbreaker killing
-2 lawbreaker thrall
-2 lawbreaker mindreading
-1 refinement + 2 Focus items
----
-9
Superb Conviction and discipline
Great Lore
+ 4 Focus Offensive Spirit
Does lawbreaker add to conviction and discipline?
If yes, that would be an +11 mental attack with an +15 to hit.
Without using aspects...
Start without the lawbreaker Stunts and the GM may even let you play that thing.
Your numbers are off. First of all, your focus gives you a bonus to either control or power with offensive spirit, not both. Next, the max bonus you get from a lawbreaker gives a +3 to the roll, so there is no way that you can get a +15 to hit out of that combination (well, unless you get a +4 on the dice roll, which has 1/81 chance of happening).
To answer your question about what lawbreaker adds to. Lawbreaker only adds in when you roll the dice to perform that lawbreaking activity, so since you don't roll to summon the power, it won't increase what you can normally handle by conviction. It does add to the discipline roll if the roll is used to control a spell that is intended to break one of the laws you have stunts for.
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Yeah, I got the impression the Lawbreaker stunts are cumulative (if more than one Law is broken with it at once). I'm with the PDF's now and only the highest counts...
So I'll revise the build
-2 Channeling (Spirit)
-2 Lawbreaker Forth
-5 Refinement + 10 Focus items
----
-9
Superb Lore and Conviction
Great Discipline
+ 5 Offensive Spirit Controll Focus
+ 5 Defensive Spirit Power Focus
+ 2 Defensive Spirit Controll Focus
He uses Veils and Illusion by manipulating the Mind of the opponent (Law Violation).
In an fight, he uses his magic to put the enemies to sleep (Law Violation? Gatekeeper did it...)
An Block/Veil would be +10 with an +8 Controll roll (+2 Lawbreaker, +2 Focus)
An attack would be +5 Power and +11 Control roll (+2 Lawbreaker, +5 Focus)
Not as overpowered as the first (incorrect) version, but not bad...
And the Power comes mainly from the Foci not from the Lawbreaker.
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yeah, not bad at all. Of course, with all that lawbreaking, the GM is going to start going compel crazy on the twisted aspects of the character. ;D
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Not as overpowered as the first (incorrect) version, but not bad...
And the Power comes mainly from the Foci not from the Lawbreaker.
Yeah, any Channeler with tons of refinement is going to be pretty brutal. I mean, you spent all of your refresh AND 2 Superbs +1 Great skill on one trick (granted Spirit is pretty broad). You could achieve a similar effect by dropping lawbreaker and either buying more Refinement (for Defensive Control, so you can have a full effect Rote and Offensive Power) or just taking some more Fate Points. The FP route lets you create a maneuver with your spells, and then spend your points to Compel that new aspect. So you make an enemy dish out some 'friendly fire' instead of just tagging for a bonus.
You could do a lot with Veils without going directly into somebody's mind, after all. Or with kinetics/fields to use the other side of spirit.
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Unfortunately you cant take refinement with channeling, you have to have either full evocation or full thaumaturgy to do it, unless you houserule otherwise.
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Unfortunately you cant take refinement with channeling, you have to have either full evocation or full thaumaturgy to do it, unless you houserule otherwise.
You can, but only to get items.
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If you have Lawbreaker (First law), does the bonus automatically apply to your Weapon:x evocations or do you have to choose to use it?
If it is automatic then I prefer Lawbreaker as a stunt. Otherwise I think I prefer Lawbreaker as an aspect because it is compellable.
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If you have Lawbreaker (First law), does the bonus automatically apply to your Weapon:x evocations or do you have to choose to use it?
If it is automatic then I prefer Lawbreaker as a stunt. Otherwise I think I prefer Lawbreaker as an aspect because it is compellable.
You have to be doing something that would break the law to get the bonus from the stunt.
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The answer is, if you are shooting spells intending to incapacitate your target, the No, a 1st lawbreaker wont give you a bonus, if you are shooting spells to kill, then Yes, it will give you a bonus.
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The answer is, if you are shooting spells intending to incapacitate your target, the No, a 1st lawbreaker wont give you a bonus, if you are shooting spells to kill, then Yes, it will give you a bonus.
Depends what you mean by incapacitate. I'm not talking about casting a Block or a Manoeuvre. When you cast a Weapon:X evocation your intent is to harm them. Even if you don't do it with the intent to kill them, death is still a possible outcome. It depends upon the targets current stress/consequences.
If the Lawbreaker bonus applies because you intend to harm them and death is possible then that feels grittier to me. Otherwise you can take Lawbreaker(First Law) just because it fits your character concept and then during play you throw evocations around but never intend to kill anyone. That seems gritless. :)
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I'd say Lawbreaker (First) only applies when you intend to kill someone.
Now, because of my house rule, I count Red Court vampires as someone for that bonus, but you still have to be trying to kill, not just capture or injure.
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I'd say Lawbreaker (First) only applies when you intend to kill someone.
Now, because of my house rule, I count Red Court vampires as someone for that bonus, but you still have to be trying to kill, not just capture or injure.
Kind of like First Degree Murder vs Manslaughter?
I guess whatever power is behind Lawbreaker is more in tune with the spirit of the law; as opposed to the Wardens who are all about the letter of the law.
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Kind of like First Degree Murder vs Manslaughter?
I guess whatever power is behind Lawbreaker is more in tune with the spirit of the law; as opposed to the Wardens who are all about the letter of the law.
Yeah. Don't get me wrong, if you kill a guy directly by hitting him with your magic you're getting Lawbreaker, even if it was an accident...but the bonus doesn't apply unless you've decided to kill.
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I think I'm going to go with the advice in the book on violations of the Laws. It's intent that's most important. For my campaign, a situation like in Grave Peril where Harry sets the ballroom on fire wouldn't force a character to take the Lawbreaker stunt. The fall to darkness should, in my opinion, be a matter of choice. Becoming an evil, twisted warlock should be about the conscious decisions to carry out certain acts, not stumbling into it accidentally.
Of course, that doesn't mean the Wardens will see things the same way ;)
As for losing Refresh, I always keep in mind that running to 0 Refresh doesn't mean you're "unplayable" or evil. It just means your character has become so driven by his nature that he longer has free will in the same sense. A character can be the purest good in the world, then lost his last Refresh point, and then dedicate his life to wiping out evil, or to quiet meditation.
A wizard with a lot of refinement who has a slip and starts a fire that kills someone accidentally shouldn't have to take Lawbreaker, and the rules do allow for groups to decide how to handle that themselves.
Now, a wizard with a lot of refinement, having dedicated so much of himself already to perfecting his craft, and then in a fit of rage summons fire to burn a murderer to death, well, he doesn't necessarily become a black-cloak-wearing evil warlock. The player might decide that the character gets a taste for killing and realises how potent a killer his years of study have made him. Alternatively, he might be repulsed by what he has done in violating all of the teachings he has learned, to the extent that he goes to live in seclusion where he can't be tempted anymore.
It all should depend on the character's Aspects and how the player wants their character's time as a PC to end.