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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: luminos on April 27, 2010, 04:14:40 PM
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I'm in a debate about some of the effects about sponsored magic and I'm looking for opinions. The debate is on what it means to cast spells that would normally be thaumaturgy, but due to sponsorship, can be cast at evocation speeds and methods. One side interprets this to mean that the spell still counts as thaumaturgy, is cast as quickly as an evocation, and uses complexity bonuses from that field of thaumaturgy to increase the amount of power that can safely be used. The other side interprets this to mean that the spell has the effects from that field of thaumaturgy (including duration), but is effectively treated as an evocation and uses power bonuses to help cast it but not complexity bonuses. Both sides agree on the issue of duration and letting control bonuses for that kind of thaumaturgy helping the spell casting.
Looking for opinions, arguments and so on.
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The other portion of the debate deals with whether or not a thaumaturgy spell cast with the speeds and methods of evocation follow the thaumaturgy rules about shifts of power up to your conviction not incurring mental stress.
I argue that bonuses to complexity apply because otherwise it penalizes sponsored magic users by requiring them to take refinement for both power and complexity. None of the Kemmlerian Necromancers in OW have bonuses to Control, Complexity, and Power for necromancy, and you think that they would if specializations in complexity did not aid in casting K. Necromancy with the "Speeds and Methods" of evocation.
I argue that if the duration of thaumaturgy spells remains intact (ie, the ability to create wards as mentioned in the side bar on page 288 would be quite useless if you had to pay for each exchange and not base it off the duration of thaumaturgy wards in general), then the mental stress = 0 (if complexity is below your conviction + control) should also remain intact.
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One side interprets this to mean that the spell still counts as thaumaturgy, is cast as quickly as an evocation, and uses complexity bonuses from that field of thaumaturgy to increase the amount of power that can safely be used.
Thats my reading of the rules.
then the mental stress = 0 (if complexity is below your conviction + control) should also remain intact.
And thats my explanation, why Harry is able to use so much magic (the quantity) in the later books.
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Yeah, Thaumaturgy isn't an Element, so there's no real way to get power bonuses to it. And I'd personally say that Complexity does for Thaumaturgy-as-Evocation exactly what it does for other Thaumaturgy...allow higher Complexity effects without prep-work or Aspects. Heck, that's even more useful if you're doing it as Evocation.
Yes, this does mean that the Mental Stress may get a little high from exceeding your Conviction from doing this too much (especially if you're good at the variety of Thaumaturgy you're using and going all out), but that seems fairly appropriate. On the other hand, since there are no indications of a base cost ala Evocation, it won't be likely to be as bad as all that.
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Yeah, Thaumaturgy isn't an Element, so there's no real way to get power bonuses to it. And I'd personally say that Complexity does for Thaumaturgy-as-Evocation exactly what it does for other Thaumaturgy...allow higher Complexity effects without prep-work or Aspects. Heck, that's even more useful if you're doing it as Evocation.
Yes, this does mean that the Mental Stress may get a little high from exceeding your Conviction from doing this too much (especially if you're good at the variety of Thaumaturgy you're using and going all out), but that seems fairly appropriate. On the other hand, since there are no indications of a base cost ala Evocation, it won't be likely to be as bad as all that.
So you would be okay with allowing an unlimited number of these thaumaturgy at evocation speed spells that are below conviction never causing stress?
I'm basing most of my argument on the specific wording of part of the orange box on YS 288. The part I'm latching onto says "With the power source, you get access to the listed set of thaumaturgic effects (often a thematic grouping of some sort) as a viable effect of an evocation spell."
I'm interpreting this to mean that you are still using evocation, but that the things you do with it have the effects of the thaumaturgical spell. The element being used would be the element granted (or supercharged) by the sponsored magic.
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Yeah, Thaumaturgy isn't an Element, so there's no real way to get power bonuses to it. And I'd personally say that Complexity does for Thaumaturgy-as-Evocation exactly what it does for other Thaumaturgy...allow higher Complexity effects without prep-work or Aspects. Heck, that's even more useful if you're doing it as Evocation.
Yes, this does mean that the Mental Stress may get a little high from exceeding your Conviction from doing this too much (especially if you're good at the variety of Thaumaturgy you're using and going all out), but that seems fairly appropriate. On the other hand, since there are no indications of a base cost ala Evocation, it won't be likely to be as bad as all that.
except that the book gives you examples that say you can use your sponsored magic as an element in and of it self, in addition to supercharging an element.
In addition, Summer magic may be used as an element for evocation, allowing evocation spell effects that encourage wildness, birth, growth, renewal, and warmth.
In addition, Winter magic may be used as an element for evocation, allowing evocation spell effects that encourage wildness, decay, slumber, death, and cold.
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So you would be okay with allowing an unlimited number of these thaumaturgy at evocation speed spells that are below conviction never causing stress?
Absolutely. 5 shift (or lower) Thaumaturgy is nice and all, but except for duration, in combat it's usually less useful than, say, 6 shift Evocation (available casually with Focus items and specialties). Warding is a notable exception, but 5 shift Wards, while cool, are hardly unbeatable.
except that the book gives you examples that say you can use your sponsored magic as an element in and of it self, in addition to supercharging an element.
True, but it specifically refers to "an Element for Evocation" so any bonuses to the Sponsored Magic Element are going to be explicitly Evocation only bonuses. Thaumaturgy cast via Evocation's methods still strikes me as a very different thing from Evocation itself.
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Absolutely. 5 shift (or lower) Thaumaturgy is nice and all, but except for duration, in combat it's usually less useful than, say, 6 shift Evocation (available casually with Focus items and specialties). Warding is a notable exception, but 5 shift Wards, while cool, are hardly unbeatable.
5 shift wards are like super versions of 5 shift blocks. They let you stop incoming damage, and reflect it back. And yet an evocation speed ward is cheaper and easier than an evocation block?
How about thaumaturgic veils at evocation speed? You can cast low grade veils that cover a huge area, but if you make a personal veil its more expensive?
What about direct attacks using thaumaturgic effects, like a super-low grade version of the exploding heart spell, and at evocation speeds? Its okay to have an infinite number of free casts of these?
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Sure. As Sponsored Magic, so your sponsor better approve of what you're doing. And which will likely give you one of the effects you just listed at most (Hellfire, Seelie and Unseelie Magic can grant attacks but not either of the other effects you mention, while Soulfire can grant it all...but only if God wills it...and costs extra over mosr Sponsored Magic anyway). And if you keep doing it again and again I'd say you probably start racking up some serious debt to your sponsor, which you'll need to pay off eventually.
Sponsored Magic is potent and deadly, but there are definite long term costs.
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It's not really Evocation methods if you're dodging the mental stress that's part of the evocation method. It would just be at evocation speed.
Warding is a notable exception, but 5 shift Wards, while cool, are hardly unbeatable.
Yeah, they don't have to be unbeatable. They just have to be lots better than a normal block. Since they don't spend shifts for duration - pretty essential IMO if you want to do anything besides maintain the shield - a 5 power Ward is more equivalent to 7 power block that gets 2 extra exchanges. Plus it comes with the reflecting bonus. And it shouldn't take stress to do it?
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It's not really Evocation methods if you're dodging the mental stress that's part of the evocation method. It would just be at evocation speed.
Yeah, they don't have to be unbeatable. They just have to be lots better than a normal block. Since they don't spend shifts for duration - pretty essential IMO if you want to do anything besides maintain the shield - a 5 power Ward is more equivalent to 7 power block that gets 2 extra exchanges. Plus it comes with the reflecting bonus. And it shouldn't take stress to do it?
If you look on the sidebar that explains what exactly "with evocations methods and speed" you'll see exactly what methods are applied to a thaumaturgy spell. The Mental Stress issue isn't even mentioned in the text there. So it stands to reason that part is not different from when you cast a thaumaturgy spell normally.
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It's not really Evocation methods if you're dodging the mental stress that's part of the evocation method. It would just be at evocation speed.
Hmm. Possibly true. Maybe we need to get an official word on this part.
Yeah, they don't have to be unbeatable. They just have to be lots better than a normal block. Since they don't spend shifts for duration - pretty essential IMO if you want to do anything besides maintain the shield - a 5 power Ward is more equivalent to 7 power block that gets 2 extra exchanges. Plus it comes with the reflecting bonus. And it shouldn't take stress to do it?
It's not as unbalancing as you're suggesting. To even do a 5 shift Ward you need Superb Conviction, and an effective Superb Lore for Warding. You also need an effective Superb Discipline to do it at all reliably, and can't make it a Rote, but items can grant the second two, I suppose. And you need Sponsored Magic of a type that doesn't even exist (none give Warding except, maybe, Soulfire).
Those requirements are probably more stringent than getting 7 shift blocks (Superb in Conviction, Great in Discipline, Evocation and Refinement in a chosen element, 2 item slots), and a 7 shift block is alot more flexible in what it does. It's a bit more expensive, sure, but not to an unwieldy degree. For example, you should bear in mind that Wards are stationary, and cast on a location, not a person, and that restricts them significantly.
It's powerful, sure, but it's not like Sponsored Magic doesn't already grant you the ability to not pay the Mental stress under some circumstances.
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Also Its not like you can attack through your own wards. Im pretty sure you aren't allowed to do that unless you are willing to pay extra shifts to allow maybe bullets to pass through or certain types of magic. For the most part you are going to be stationary while the ward is up, its merely a way to get some breathing room IF you have all of the above as deadmawalking mentioned.
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It's powerful, sure, but it's not like Sponsored Magic doesn't already grant you the ability to not pay the Mental stress under some circumstances.
Which circumstances are these?
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If you look on the sidebar that explains what exactly "with evocations methods and speed" you'll see exactly what methods are applied to a thaumaturgy spell. The Mental Stress issue isn't even mentioned in the text there. So it stands to reason that part is not different from when you cast a thaumaturgy spell normally.
It might be redundant with "The spell is cast like an evocation:" Taking stress is part of the gathering power step of evocation, which is referenced in the sidebar, as opposed to being its own step.
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Nothing explicitly references wards. However, if you can evoke a shield made of summer fire, why not a longer ward? Or create lasting plant growth (with super thorns) to do it? The domains of sponsored magic are more thematic than strictly mechanical categories.
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Which circumstances are these?
You're allowed to incur Sponsor Debt instead of Mental Stress if you desire. It's not in the current pre-release PDF, but iago has mentioned it a whole bunch of times.
Nothing explicitly references wards. However, if you can evoke a shield made of summer fire, why not a longer ward? Or create lasting plant growth (with super thorns) to do it? The domains of sponsored magic are more thematic than strictly mechanical categories.
Because that's blatantly against the rules. What Evocation and Thaumaturgy effects Sponsored Magic can access are thematic and unspecified, but what Thaumaturgy effects can be used as Evocation are clearly stated, as are what creatures take additional damage. Saying you can use Warding with Seelie Magic is like saying you can suddenly use Biomancy with Unseelie Magic, or that Kemmlerian Necromancy suddenly reduces all vampires defensive abilities by one level...it just doesn't work that way, and is as much of a rules breach as suddenly having a new Evocation element for no reason.
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"Like" does not mean "exactly the same as", also, it goes on to tell you exactly "Like" an evocation it is, and what changes must be made to the casting process.
Maroon is like red, only darker.
Nothing explicitly references wards. However, if you can evoke a shield made of summer fire, why not a longer ward? Or create lasting plant growth (with super thorns) to do it? The domains of sponsored magic are more thematic than strictly mechanical categories.
With the power source, you get access to the listed set of thaumaturgic effects (often a thematic grouping of some sort) as a viable effect of an evocation spell. So you might be able to throw together a small ward quickly, summon a minor creature extra-quick, or cast a curse of decay with the flick of a wrist.
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Uh, yeah. That's in the general section. Nobody's saying that some variety of Sponsored Magic couldn't do Wards...just that none of the listed ones (except Soulfire) can.
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Btw. Soulfire.
To be honest I dont like it as Sponsored Magic.
Because per the books, you use your own soul. So you would get a Dept to your Soul? How much dept do you need, to be empty of your Soul?
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So you would get a Dept to your Soul? How much dept do you need, to be empty of your Soul?
Part of the dept Compels are your own soul, remember how harry is exhasuted after using soulfire? dept cash in. There are also personality depts (the book mentions you hunting a demon when you really should be resting as an example) and Sponsor compels (the angels come giving you a job to do)
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How I rule soulfire i think is kinda cool(now watch me post it and you all take it to shreds lol) Okay so you all know how you can use sponsored magic to power up your magic by incuring debts? Well i play that when you use soulfire to make those you are actually causing consequences to your aspects(since for this game the best way to define soul is through them) At a rate of one mild consequence for every three shifts(i do three because soulfire is a little more limiting than regular consequences) of power gained. How i Rule it is it works like this...
Example one.
Soulfire User
Aspects: Chosen of God, Power of Soul, Soulfire is My Weapon.
Okay now this soulfire user hurls an attack and tosses in an extra 3 shifts of power from soulfire, this would be a mild consequence. So he looks at his aspects and says Hmm Well i dont think i will need my "Chosen of God" aspect. So he makes a mark on it. That aspect is no longer usuable for the duration of a mild consequence(one scene after its gained) that means no invokes or compels from it.
Example 2
Soulfire User
Aspects: Chosen of God, Power of Soul, Soulfire is My Weapon.
Okay so say he tosses in a huge amount of soul fire into a single attack which would be 9 shifts(a severe consequence's worth plus the 1.5x bonus for it being soulfire) Okay so he looks at his aspects and says well i almost never use my "Power of Soul" So he picks that and puts a mark on it. Now that aspect is gone like a severe consequence(so no invoke compels or anything like that) which means it could be gone for a very, very long time.
Example 3
Soulfire User
Aspects: Chosen of God, Power of Soul, Soulfire is My Weapon.
So he uses the same number of shifts as last example(9) which could be a severe consequence on one aspect. but that aspect will be gone for a quite a while(and thus he will lose lots of power) so maybe he decides instead of making it a severe on one of his aspects he divides it up into 3 different mild consequences and places them on his 3 aspects and they will only be gone for a Mild's duration.
This is just a house rule of mine and probably stupid but hey i like it. And after having played several sessions with a soulfire user i have yet to find any brokenness in it or Over Poweredness. Plus this represents how overuse can be fatal(if you sacrafice your high concept you die) Still tweaking it though. Right now one of the things im trying to decide is if your trouble counts as a sacrificable one(right now i'm ruling you cant.) Also i'm ruling that you can use whatever form of thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation you want with soulfire as long as you can justify it with your aspects.
So what you guys think? And please dont be too harsh ;D
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Part of the dept Compels are your own soul, remember how harry is exhasuted after using soulfire? dept cash in.
There are also personality depts (the book mentions you hunting a demon when you really should be resting as an example)
Can see that.
and Sponsor compels (the angels come giving you a job to do)
But there is no sponsor per se.
Harry got help with the first access to Soul-Fire. But the source is only his soul.
And as is, there is no chance of using to much Soulfire. No danger of emtying your Soul.
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Sure there is, what if you get taken out by casting a really powerful soulfire spell?
The answer is: You used up your soul, now you DAIIE!
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@Archmage
First look is good. If I use it, I think I use the standard Consequense shifts...
Can one Aspect have multiple Consequenses?
Need to think a little about it...
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Can one Aspect have multiple Consequenses?
I would rule nope because the part of your soul that represents that aspect is gone. The consequence you're connecting it to just represents how long it takes to grow/heal back. But thats just how ive been looking at it. I could definately see other ways being done. and thanks for the comment ;D
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But there is no sponsor per se.
Harry got help with the first access to Soul-Fire. But the source is only his soul.
Harry may have to buy the ammo himself but someone issued him the weapon. There is a sponsor, hence why harry can continue to use Soulfire. Ever heard the phrase "I serve at the pleasure of the president" ? this is "I burn at the pleasure of the Almighty" yes Harry is using his soul to fuel the soulfire but he only has access to it as long as the sponsor deems him worthy. If he ever does something to royally irritate said sponsor he may reach for soulfire only to find himself incapable of channeling it.
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So what you guys think? And please dont be too harsh ;D
I think you've been reading my mind. I've been thinking about doing soulfire just about the same way for a few days and needing time to write it up (Yes, the same take consequences to aspects that limit them thing).
I was thinking of making you have to spend a fate point to invoke it (you need free will in action), and add the note that if you experience and True Emotion (see WCVs) you reduce a recovery time by one. Emotion is good for the soul.
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I was thinking of making you have to spend a fate point to invoke it (you need free will in action), and add the note that if you experience and True Emotion (see WCVs) you reduce a recovery time by one. Emotion is good for the soul.
You my good sir are awesome. I love this idea ;D In fact i have a session tomorrow and i'll test it out then.
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You my good sir are awesome. I love this idea ;D In fact i have a session tomorrow and i'll test it out then.
The other thing I would make clear is that it only applies as a modifier to True Magic. No stacking with other sponsored styles of magic. Even an archangel would be channeling force/spirit + soulfire.