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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: swordsman on April 26, 2010, 05:10:41 AM
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So we're gearing up for a short adventure set in El Paso, TX in order to try out the system, and I'd like to see if a Highlander style immortal is workable.
It's going to be a low refresh game (6 Refresh, 20 Skill points)
I'm thinking:
* Wizard's Constitution (+0) (Immortal's Constitution?)
* Supernatural Sense (-1) (Senses the presence of other Immortals)
* Inhuman Recovery (-2) (Catch is Beheading?)
* The Catch (-??) <- Help appreciated here... Does beheading work as a catch or is it too narrow?
* The quickening <- This is the biggest problem, I think... How to represent the quickening? I can see how getting the other immortal's knowledge and skills could be unbalanced... My only idea so far is to treat it like a Minor Milestone that gets cashed early and it's also limited to what the other Immortal knew.
* A couple of Weapon or Endurance Stunts if Refresh allows.
So Ideas?
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Wizard's Constitution is unnecessary with Inhuman Recovery, and yeah, beheading as a Catch works (and looks to be about +2 or +3...it uses any melee weapon, and can either be found out by research or not, which being up to the GM).
I'd actually treat Quickening events as Significant Milestones (+1 Skill right there...must be something the other Immortal knew), and even Major Milestones if the individual was important to the PC. It's not like Quickening events are gonna happen more than once a scenario or so, anyway. Not in any game not entirely devoted to immortals anyhow.
The only problem is that I'm not sure if Inhuman Recovery lets you come back from the dead. You might need Supernatural Recovery for that. Or something else entirely. On the bright side, with a +3 Catch and no Inhuman Toughness, Supernatural Recovery is a -1 Refresh power.
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I'd make your sword an Item of Power and put your 'Quickening' ability on it, since you need to decapitate your enemies.
Supernatural Sense (-1) (Immortal Radar)
Mystic Recovery (-6)
*The Catch (+3) (Beheading)
Item of Power (+2)
*Quickening (-3) (1 + Skill Point on Beheading a Highlander)
Total: (-10) (+5) = +1
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Yeah, but you don't need your sword to do it, just any sword you like. And having stunts or powers replace the advancement system seems like a bad idea. Just having it be a milestone makes alot more story sense.
Mythic may be the right level of Recovery though. Immortals do heal damn quick...
Anyway, we're talking about around -2 to -5 Refresh worth of powers here, so it's definitely doable.
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Yeah, but you don't need your sword to do it, just any sword you like. And having stunts or powers replace the advancement system seems like a bad idea. Just having it be a milestone makes alot more story sense.
Mythic may be the right level of Recovery though. Immortals do heal damn quick...
Anyway, we're talking about around -2 to -5 Refresh worth of powers here, so it's definitely doable.
In that version yeah you do need the sword, since that power is tied to it.
Outside of it well, any ideas?
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Yeah, I was talking about the actual Highlander mythos, by way of explaing my problem with having the power bound in the sword. As much as each of them has a sword, that specific sword is clearly not a needed thing, and normal people can't get Quickening from beheading an immortal with the sword of one. It's the immortals who are special, not their weapons.
As for what I'd suggest, well, like I said, the fight with another Immortal shouldn't be a casual thing, it should be a big enough story element to be a Milestone...which neatly covers the gains from doing it. No need for complicated and unbalncing mechanics when the system has a built-in way to do it with basically no modification.
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I hadn't considered it like that. I was just going by 'is a Highlander style immortal possible' ^^;.
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* The quickening <- This is the biggest problem, I think... How to represent the quickening? I can see how getting the other immortal's knowledge and skills could be unbalanced... My only idea so far is to treat it like a Minor Milestone that gets cashed early and it's also limited to what the other Immortal knew.
* A couple of Weapon or Endurance Stunts if Refresh allows.
So Ideas?
The Quickening[-3] composed of
Multi-power[-2]
Any stunt of an immortal you have already killed[-1]
As time goes on, you can add more [-1] stunt slots.
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I would look at Mimic Abilities as a model for the Quickening. Set a side a number of refresh points, these are you Quickening points. When you defeat another immortal you can grab a number of stunts/powers equal to you Quickening points.
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Thanks for the ideas. I think I can combine some of the above to make an Immortal my GM can work with.
Others in my group is attempting a 'Green Lantern' and someone like Ezekiel Stone (From Brimstone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brimstone_(TV_series))). It's actually quite amazing that the game is flexible enough to provide workable answers for these characters.
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I had also considered an immortal like character. One of the issues I was never able to get my head around was how they are often "killed" (but not decapitated) and recover later. Maybe they get killed and left as dead when they offer an Concession and Taken Out is decapitation?
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Others in my group is attempting a 'Green Lantern' and someone like Ezekiel Stone (From Brimstone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brimstone_(TV_series))). It's actually quite amazing that the game is flexible enough to provide workable answers for these characters.
Tell your dude that some dude on the internet says he gets A+++ for going with an Ezekiel Stone character. I've been wanting to do that since I watched the show and saw that this game is coming out.
It's kinda like a Champion of God, only he works for Devil.
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I agree with the comment about using the Mimic Abilities power as a basis for the quickening...though apply it only to stunts, never supernatural powers...and give its function more of a Modular Abilities twist.
Immortals can't just use any old stunt with their Mimic/Modular Abilities, only those acquired through the beheading of other immortals or those they might have gained normally as a mortal might, which makes a little bookkeeping but not too much unless you're on a killing spree. Grouping sets of stunts into "situation packages" would be helpful, and prevent slowing the game from cherry-picking each and every time one gets swap-happy.
I suggest getting at least 1 fate point when an immortal takes another immortal's head...to represent the "power gain" part of it. I justify this with the fact that beheading an immortal is effectively a compel to be a mass murderer (though I'm sure a less provocative aspect can be named for the association)...even if it is often in self-defense.
As for the recovery...Inhuman Recovery is sufficient, except for the death problem. I suggest merely modifying that ability with whatever caveat regarding death you feel appropriate, and an automatic catch regarding beheading.
As pointed out by others...the weapon is largely irrelevant. Immortals have personal preferences, but there's no power associated at all with the weapons themselves (though that's not to say that an Immortal with some extra refresh left couldn't make his sword an item of power anyway, it's simply not obligatory).
Like the book says, Keep it Simple...Silly.
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Would Immortals count against killing in regards to the Laws of Magic?
(I'd say 'no' in my game...)
Also, I agree with the sword not being significant. Immortals have died by non-swords plenty of times. (Xavier, Paul Kincade used dirty tricks and even a hook [as in amputated hand] to kill other immortals.)
I would think that the problem with this is that a character would keep gaining 'power'/'skills'/'knowledge' with each kill. This could unbalance the character unless timed with each advancement. (Which would get old quick.)
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Would Immortals count against killing in regards to the Laws of Magic?
(I'd say 'no' in my game...)
I'd say yes...but only if you killed them permanently via beheading directly with magic. They're closer to Wizards (humans with a cool power) than they are to real monsters.
Also, I agree with the sword not being significant. Immortals have died by non-swords plenty of times. (Xavier, Paul Kincade used dirty tricks and even a hook [as in amputated hand] to kill other immortals.)
Yep. That's more or less what I was saying earlier.
I would think that the problem with this is that a character would keep gaining 'power'/'skills'/'knowledge' with each kill. This could unbalance the character unless timed with each advancement. (Which would get old quick.)
Eh. How many other Immortals are they really gonna kill in a mixed group? Maybe one a scenario? Just treat it as a Milestone (again, I'd only call it Significant unless they were th guy who murdered your mentor or something) and make sure everyone else gets those kind of milestones at around the same rate.
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You could make it a feeding item such as a vampire but the abilities are fed and fueled by beheading other immortals. Since it wouldn't be something you do every day, it could be proportionally more powerful (like maybe temporary refresh to spend for a certain time or number of uses) . I also say, you'd probably have to get some refresh as each time a highlander killed another his permanent power would increase based on how powerful his opponent is. I might think you could balance it out by making this how the character gets refresh rather than the usual manner. He could get skils but to get new power he'd have to off another immortal.
Just another way to think.
CG
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About Immortal Recovery: My GM ruled to treat it as Superhuman Recovery, with the added bonus of coming back within a time frame based on the number of consequences (20 minutes for mild, 40, 60, 80, etc)... assuming my head's still attached to my torso.
About The Quickening: GM ruled it as a 'Mimic' Ability that works only for Stunts obtained through beheading, and once added the stunts are permanent, so no reconfiguration. He's giving the character 1 'Free' Stunt.
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I'd say yes...but only if you killed them permanently via beheading directly with magic. They're closer to Wizards (humans with a cool power) than they are to real monsters.
So, you are thinking that the Laws of Magic and the Rules of Immortals as working together?
My thought was no and having Immortals be a different type of creature. (Yes, I agree with you about them being a human with a cool power.)
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So, you are thinking that the Laws of Magic and the Rules of Immortals as working together?
My thought was no and having Immortals be a different type of creature. (Yes, I agree with you about them being a human with a cool power.)
Well, not exactly. I just think the Laws are clearly metaphysical laws of reality, so killing anything that counts as a human will get you Lawbreaker. Now ripping an Immortal's heart out or burning them to 'death' doesn't kill them, so if you knew it was an Immortal, that wouldn't net you Lawbreaker...but beheading them with magic would.
It doesn't really have anything to do with Immortal's Rules...none of those break the Laws of Magic and vice versa. The two don't really interact.
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Another thought occurs to me now that it's been mentioned. Immortals have their own rules they can't break. And they seem to be as ingrained in their being as the Laws of Magic for Wizards.
Perhaps adapt the Lawbreaker power to suit Immortals and their own set of rules? Breaking the rules gets you an advantage, but at a price, and you risk quickly becoming an NPC since Immortals would have only 2 or 3 more refresh than the average Wizard, at most.
Now that I think of it...what ARE all the rules anyway?
No fighting on Holy Ground.
All fights are one-on-one.
Nothing else springs to mind...anyone have any idea?
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Now that I think of it...what ARE all the rules anyway?
No fighting on Holy Ground.
All fights are one-on-one.
Nothing else springs to mind...anyone have any idea?
There can be only one! (compelled to fight)
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Now that I think of it...what ARE all the rules anyway?
Modern weapons such as guns and tasers to soften up your opponent are clearly unacceptable. Every Immortal we've ever seen use them is a complete bastard.
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I don't know what the opinions are now-a-days, but last I heard the reason for the rule about not fighting on holy ground was a practical one.
When immortals fight, they both release quickening into the surrounding area. If neither die, they both regain their quickening, but if one dies, all the released quickening goes into the winner. However, if the fight is on holy ground, then the holy ground itself draws in all that released energy, regardless of the outcome of the fight, leaving both immortals (or the winner in the case of one immortal losing his head) weaker then when they interned the fight.
As a GM, I would have both immortals put a one or two (the same for both opponents) fate points on the table. If they both live then they get their point or two back, if one dies the other gets all the points. If the fight is on holy ground then the outcome doesn't matter, those two or four fate points are lost completely.
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I don't know what the opinions are now-a-days, but last I heard the reason for the rule about not fighting on holy ground was a practical one.
When immortals fight, they both release quickening into the surrounding area. If neither die, they both regain their quickening, but if one dies, all the released quickening goes into the winner. However, if the fight is on holy ground, then the holy ground itself draws in all that released energy, regardless of the outcome of the fight, leaving both immortals (or the winner in the case of one immortal losing his head) weaker then when they interned the fight.
This was the reason cited in the (very nicely done) Highlander: The Gathering fan-made RPG for White Wolf's WoD. It's not at all official to the show or movies and, indeed, I always had problems with it due to some of the deep personal grudges Holy Ground prevented from being settled. Mere loss of power seems an insufficient reason.
I personally think Rulebreaker stunts for things like this would be fun and thematic. :)
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Didn't Jacob Kell get a Quickening after killing the Immortals in the Sanctuary in Endgame? It's a bit fuzzy... It's been a while.
Plus, I like the lawbreaker idea. Very thematic.
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All I remember is that they killed off Connor McLeod so that Duncan could fail at being as cool as Connor. Poor poor Connor.
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The movies after the first one don't count. No, not even the ones based on the show with Duncan in them. The first movie and the show are all that exists. There should've been only one!
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The movies after the first one don't count. No, not even the ones based on the show with Duncan in them. The first movie and the show are all that exists. There should've been only one!
I understand completely.
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Out of curiosity would this be an original Highlander style immortal or a canon Highlander immortal? I'm partial to Methos from the TV series, myself.
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Out of curiosity would this be an original Highlander style immortal or a canon Highlander immortal? I'm partial to Methos from the TV series, myself.
Well, the TV series and the original movie have more or less the same mythos and metaphysics, the only differences being more-or-less in timeline and number of Immortals. So does it matter?
And I'm partial to Methos myself. :)
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The movies after the first one don't count. No, not even the ones based on the show with Duncan in them. The first movie and the show are all that exists. There should've been only one!
I agree completely. The sequel movies and spin off shows got worse expenentially. I love the first movie and the first LIVE ACTION (not animated) TV series though.
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I agree completely. The sequel movies and spin off shows got worse expenentially. I love the first movie and the first LIVE ACTION (not animated) TV series though.
Exactly. Those are the good ones.
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You COULD make a character based on the second highlander movie. How much bonus refresh do you get for "covered with the stench of failure and lameness"? :'(
Then again nevermind.. It's probably an aspect. What was Sean Connery smoking when he took that job?
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You COULD make a character based on the second highlander movie. How much bonus refresh do you get for "covered with the stench of failure and lameness"? :'(
Then again nevermind.. It's probably an aspect. What was Sean Connery smoking when he took that job?
Well, considering he turned down a shot at being Magneto because he didn't understand the role, and took on Alan Quartermaine when he still didn't understand the role because X-Men did so well...it's fair to say there's not much rhyme or reason to his choices...
I liked Fitzcairn best from the series, he's the sort of guy that makes the centuries FUN! Though, that married couple who gets married every hundred years was pretty interesting. Gotta give him kudos for not taking her head after all that time.
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In the league of extraordinary gentlmen comments he said he was offered roles in The Matrix and LOTR as well and turned them down.
Obviously not a fan if he turned down LOTR. I could see him now as Gandalf, "Just get rid of the d*mn ring Trebek, I mean Frodo.. or whoever you are you little sissy."
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Utterly off-topic, but it just popped into my brain and I have to get it out. Denzel Washington would've been 100 times better in the lead role for The Last Samurai. So much so that when I think about it, I can't watch it anymore. I mean, when you picture him in Tom Cruise's place...everything in the story just makes more sense and is just so much...BETTER.
Anyway, heard about Sean turning those down too. Darn shame.
I think the biggest notion is how flexible are immortals when placed in a world like that in the Dresden Files? Obviously many creatures, even wizards, acquire a variety of powers they're not entitled to inherently over the years. In a world where there are all sorts of nasties, an entire "psuedo-earth" spirit world just to the left of us, and friggin full-blown magic exists...is it possible for Immortals to pick up something "unusual" once in a while over the centuries? That would make for some interesting quickenings later on...and would make the oldest immortals forces to be reckoned with even in the Dresdenverse.
On the subject of Immortals and the laws of magic...I'd chalk them up with WCVs. Like WCVs, they're born, but are not automatically supernatural. If they go their whole life without triggering their true nature (in the case of Immortals, dying), then they simply grow old and die normally, never having realized their potential. So, essentially, while they still possess free will, just like some WCVs, they don't quite count as human. You can nuke even the most human of WCVs til the cows come home and the Council won't even bat an eyelash at you (unless it's somehow directly violating the accords, then you're in trouble). It won't be a violation of the Laws to kill immortals with magic, and they won't get lawbreaker for killing people (though perhaps they could...maybe an immortal rule we haven't heard of before that they're not supposed to go around just cutting up regular folk? The Quickening being related to the force of life, and all?).
Now that I think of it...most of the Council won't like Immortals much in general. While they won't feel compelled to interfere in the Gathering, they probably won't often welcome an Immortal to town when they come calling. I mean, they survive by lopping each others heads off, after all.
Ya know...I wonder how many Immortals actually do just die naturally of old age or whatnot? Wouldn't it be freaky to have some natural disaster destroy a city of millions with no chance of survival, only to see a few hundred walk out of the dusty wreckage without a scratch? I mean...ultimately, that's an incredibly low percentage of the population, but it would make sense. There aren't so few immortals because they aren't born...there are so few because they don't all die correctly.
Also, while there's nothing to support it...I've always personally preferred the notion that immortals CAN have children...before they die. Mostly, that's because I've never been a fan of the notion that they just randomly happen. I prefer inheritance of some sort...even if it skips generations at a time. Plus, it opens up story potential for things like older immortals meeting their mortal descendants. I think since it doesn't directly violate canon, and opens up a lot of opportunities, that it's the way to go. But, that's just me.
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Actually, having them have children pre-death does directly violate at least the show's canon. But if you want to go for it more power to you.
And they really don't have a rule about killing, Duncan was referred to repeatedly as a soldier in more wars than you can count, and kills quite a few people in the show without that ever being portrayed as particularly bad. Also, there are logical problems there.
And the reason I'd count Immortals as human for Lawbreaking reasons, and WCVs as not, is simple: WCVs have a clearly malevolent entity in them, and must prey on humanity to survive. Immortals have no such thing. Immortals are essentially human, and they behave and think like humans (which the White Court definitively do not). They're not even compelled to fight each other, the bastards among them just do it for power, while the others do it to survive. All very human reasons.
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I haven't seen the show in ages, and the only part I remember is when some girl claimed her kid was Ritchie's. I know it wasn't his in the end, but couldn't remember if it was because immortals can NEVER have children, even pre-immortality. But, like I said, I prefer that it's possible anyway, just suits me better.
War and murder are logically the same but thematically different. However, I do agree that there's some logical difficulty in enforcing the difference, since immortals don't have specific powers that could be used to directly kill. For instance, Wizards can kill the hell out of people...just not with magic. Immortals kill everything with tools, not powers...just like regular people. So, that's not really viable, I admit.
I'm sticking with them not causing a violation of the first law though. I don't consider Immortals valid targets for Soulgazing either, personally...but there's no specific reason to disallow it. I'd normally consider them "monsters" only too, except that they do have free will and the game supports them pretty well. Frankly, were they to exist, I'd hunt them down like the renegade watchers. Then again...I'd hunt down everything else, too. I'm one of those, "I say we dust off, nuke the site from orbit...it's the only way to be sure," kind of guys.
Immortals look and act human, and may or may not have souls...but they're not human, not even pre-Immortality. They're "wrong". No mere humanoid should exist that long...except maybe plants, and stars if they're alive...it's just out of balance. Just the way I see it. Then again, when all's said and done, I don't think too highly of humans, either.
Ooh, I think I just found the Trouble for my Wyld Hunt Survivor..."Friggin' Humans!"
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I've been working on a full Immortal Template and here is what I've come up with. Let me know what you guys think.
Musts: A high concept that denotes status as an Immortal (e.g., Honorable Immortal or Immortal With a Death-wish) must be taken. In addition, Immortals are required to take the following supernatural powers:
* Marked by Power [–1]: Immortals are filled with great power. This can be sensed naturally by other Immortals and, with the proper abilities, it can also be perceived by non-Immortals, a Wizard's Sight being one example.
* Supernatural Sense [-2]: Can sense the presence of other Immortals. This is a passive ability that always succeeds at distances closer then thirty to fifty feet on average. The distance can be increased with shifts from an Alertness roll. The sense can not be blocked by non-magical means and any mystical obstruction is contested by an Alertness roll.
* Supernatural Recovery [-4 + 3 = -1]: This applies to the healing of wounds and doesn't include re-growing missing body parts, be it a finger, an ear, or your head.
* The Catch [+3]: Can be bypassed by removal of a body part (+2) and knowledge of the catch is discoverable through research (+1).
* The Quickening [-4]: When an Immortal looses their head, the nearest living Immortal receives a single fate point, one skill rank, and the benefits of a Minor Milestone. All three rewards can be used immediately and have no additional rules or restrictions. Optionally, the GM may limit the use of the skill rank and/or the acquisition of new skills and powers to those appropriate to the decapitated Immortal. Also, at the GM's discretion, certain Immortals may give more then one fate point or skill rank when are defeated, generally relating to how powerful the Immortal is based on the number of points currently in their fate pool.
Options: Every Immortal is unique. There are no specific restrictions on stunts, besides the normal refresh cut-off rules, and Supernatural Powers are possible, with GM approval.
Important Skills: Alertness
Minimum Refresh Cost: -8
It's all pretty obvious, but I will point out a few things.
I raised the cost of Supernatural Sense from -1 to -2 because of the automatic success at close distance.
I thought for awhile about how to do quickening. Off the top I knew that there shouldn't be any new record keeping, the strength of the DFRPG system the way it adds simple numbers to free-form role-playing. No new pools, counters, tracks, stats, or any other numbers that need to be referenced durning play. I like the idea of using the built-in mechanic of Milestones, and Minor Milestones are almost perfect, but don't portray the gain of new knoledge/abilities. The Significant Milestones may give a skill rank, but they limit to one item from the Minor Milestones and that seems to weak. Major Milestones are too good except for maybe finishing a really powerful Immortal, but how often does that happen and when it does GMs are free to use them. So I settled on the rewards mentioned above, 1 fate point, 1 skill rank, and a Minor Milestone.
That leaves me with two questions. First, does the Quickening power seem acceptable? Second, how would one go about adding the ability to breath under water?
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Well, personally, I wouldn't give them Marked By Power. That's specifically for people who have a patron. Just showing up as something scary to The Sight and such isn't a power, and doesn't cost anything.
Second, I'd say that no Power should ever grant Skills or other such things...but that one granting Milestones under certain circumstances is reasonable. I'd stick with Significant Milestones, or possibly call them Quickening Milestones and have them give you a skill point and all the benefits of a Minor Milestone (not a big deal).
However, getting a Fate Point when you kill an Immortal seems reasonable, so I'd make that the power. Make it -1 Refresh, and say that it grants you a Fate Point, and gives you a Quickening Milestone and you're good to go.
Then just note that these should be instead of, not in addition to, the Significant Milestones gained by others, and the cost is only -4 and they work fine.
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I can agree that Marked by Power itself isn't the right choice, since it does require a patron of some sort...something new based on Marked by Power would be ideal. In fact, Marked by Power is perfect except that it requires a patron, which Immortals don't generally have. I'm not sure if that would still make it worth a refresh by then. Ah well.
Supernatural Sense can still be used, but there doesn't really need to be contested rolls or such. There's never been anything in the movies or the shows that indicate they can extend their sense or hide their power. Well...except for that abomination with Mario Van Peebles in it. In general for that, I"d say it works out to 20 yards, and pings any nearby Immortals...guaranteed. However, it does nothing to determine number, position, or power. It's just, "There are one or more Immortals within 20 yards of this point," period. At the GMs discretion, this can be increased or decreased for dramatic potential, since that distance usually works best, but sometimes they'll feel an immortal from the other end of a warehouse or not until they're right on top of each other for no apparent reason. Another consideration is that the sense only seems to go off at the first meeting, and won't trigger again for days, sometimes weeks with that specific immortal. Maybe a scene or something has to pass before they can sense a given Immortal again? Ultimately, I think it works out enough to be worth only -1 refresh as usual.
Supernatural Recovery is the best notion, but there has to be a consideration for things like...surgical removal of the heart. Does the Immortal still live without a heart, or does he regrow one? Nitpicky, maybe...but sure enough someone's gonna try it, trust me. So...something like they can't regrow limbs (especially the head), but they can regrow internal organs. The catch is otherwise fine as is.
Quickening's a tough one. I'm inclined to agree that an Immortal's quickening should replace a particular type of milestone on the rare occasions they occur. Though, honestly, I think slaying another immortal should count as one of the three milestones anyway, depending on how often such fights occur, and how important they are. Like...Connor and Kurgan's final battle was absolutely a Major Milestone. Duncan had several of those in the series as well. Piddly Immortals get you a minor milestone because they're more a nuisance than anything...heavy-hitters get you a significant milestone...and the 1,000+ year old, serious jerk-head, constant pain-in-humanity's-rear, will get you a major milestone. Works out to about the same frequency as anyone else in the group...especially if the Immortal isn't getting their milestones because his quickenings replace them whenever he takes a head. Keeps everyone right on par.
Just what I think. Aside from those details I mentioned, I'd have done it about the same way myself...so kudos.
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Here's a new Power for a proposed "Immortal" template, borrowing from both Marked by Power and Wizard's Constitution.
Immortal [-0]
Description: You are an Immortal, ageless from the time of your first death, and you are not alone... yet. There can be only one.
Note: In terms of game effects, the uses of this ability are so minor and inherently balanced that they’re really almost cosmetic; hence the zero cost.
Skills Affected: Endurance, Lore
Effects:
Ageless. As a side-effect of your supernatural ability to recover from any injury (save decapitation), your lifespan is extended indefinitely. In game terms this will rarely have relevance.
Awareness. You can automatically sense the presence of another Immortal that comes within 2 zones of you, as if you had succeeded on a Lore: Mystic Perception roll. However, the other Immortal becomes aware of you even as you become aware of them, so no advantage is ever gained by either one. Other creatures may perceive this aspect of you through a Lore check, though success is not guaranteed.
Holy Ground. No Immortal knows for certain what would happen if they killed another on holy ground, they only know that they absolutely mustn't. As such, GMs are free to set their own penalties for violating this rule. Suggestions include negating this power entirely, at which point Father Time returns to collect his due, or inflicting an extreme consequence as if the Immortal had broken a magically binding oath (YS 274).
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Not bad Ryan, not bad at all.
The only issue is that Wizard's Constitution doesn't make recovery faster...which, after going down in a hail of bullets and then getting up only a few hours later at most without even a mark says at least Inhuman Recovery to me.
Aside from that, I like it.
Part of the problem is...Immortals get stabbed, cut, and shot quite a bit. Yet they only sometimes scar. They never regrow limbs, but they do apparently regrow major organs (aside from the brain). The severity and location of wounds that scar seem to be completely inconsistent. For all the damage he's taken to the torso and limbs, Duncan should've been completely covered in scars whenever he went shirtless. As near as I can tell, it only scars if it's above the shoulders, and otherwise only when limbs are amputated (except the head). Perhaps immortals should get their own versions of the Recovery Powers? I would imagine also that while they can't grow back a hand, putting the hand back on soon enough and securing it in place would probably allow it to heal normally.
Now I'm just rambling. Ignore that.
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Oh, the Immortal template would get Supernatural Recovery as a separate "Must" power, not as part of the Immortal power. While it makes a degree of sense for them to have a slightly different version of the power (AFAIK, Immortals need sleep just as much as Mortals do), it isn't worth it when the existing version is more than serviceable for the Highlander concept.
The Quickening element is another power entirely, though I'm thinking that much of its effect (if not all of it) should be simply incorporated into the Immortal's high concept, allowing the player to invoke (or the GM to compel) it in just about any situation.
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I would think the Quickening could simply be represented by invoking your character's "Immortal Swordsman" high concept any time the accumulated knowledge and skills would be relevant, which would effectively mean "at will, unless it's absurd."
Obviously, you'd get a fate point for beheading another immortal since you've just lived up to your high concept aspect in the truest way possible.
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That's the easiest and so best way, yes. And killing another immortal makes for a good significant milestone, since the justification for advancement is simply "I killed another immortal and absorbed his quickening". No other rules required.
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I would think the Quickening could simply be represented by invoking your character's "Immortal Swordsman" high concept any time the accumulated knowledge and skills would be relevant, which would effectively mean "at will, unless it's absurd."
Obviously, you'd get a fate point for beheading another immortal since you've just lived up to your high concept aspect in the truest way possible.
Fair enough. I could go with that.
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Just let me say right off that I am neither using, nor allowing myself to remember any aspect of the franchise other then the original movie and the original series, and I'm going to assume everyone else is as well. Let us not speak of the other.. attempts.. at Highlander. ;)
There were a lot of good points and they helped me in general to shift my mind more toward Fate and away from a more numbers specific way of making things. Thanks to all for the suggestions so far and I think this second try is much better.
I like ryanroyce's Immortal power. It handles many aspects of the Immortals that I thought cluttered up the template. However, I would change two things. First, the Ageless text would be, "As a side-effect of your supernatural existence, your lifespan is extended indefinitely. In game terms this will rarely have relevance." Second, I would give it at least a -1 cost because taking Supernatural Sense to sense vampires or were-wolves would cost something, and even just the accumulation of almost useless effects shouldn't be totally free.
I choose Marked by Power and Supernatural Sense because they seemed to complement each other, but I think I was just try to put to many things down with costs and numbers when it just needed to be text and role-play. But in the end, both it and the Supernatural Sense are covered nicely under the Immortal Power.
In my personal opinion, Immortals should get at least one fate point and one skill rank with each Immortal they behead. To me, that is part of what they are, gaining power and skills from each of the fallen. However, I'm not one to think that my style of GMing is the way everyone plays. So, I figure leaving it as a GM decision on which Milestone to give, if any, is the best solution. To that end, I added an effect to the Immortal power, The Quickening, see below.
I also read over the three recovery powers a few times and I changed Supernatural Recovery to Mythic. The power says "You heal faster than anyone should be able to." and that sounds like Immortals to me. As I think was mentioned in an earlier post, I found no mention of sleep benefits on the wikipedia pages or in the WoD fan-rules, so I added a catch that the sleep thing does not apply and that really focuses the power purely around healing. I also fine tuned the text to cover the things I saw mentioned, reattaching limbs and healing of the neck area.
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Here is the updated template.
Musts: A high concept that denotes status as an Immortal (e.g., Honorable Immortal or Immortal With a Death-wish) must be taken. In addition, Immortals are required to take the following supernatural powers:
* Immortal [-1]: Can't be an Immortal without this.
* Mythic Recovery [-6 + 5 = -1]: This only applies to the healing of internal and external wounds. Immortals will not re-grow limbs, though any severed appendage - except for the head - can be held to the original wound and it will reattach with time. Any damage done to the neck gains no benefit from this power and will heal at the normal rate, if it heals at all. It is also important to note that Immortals have the same sleep requirements as mundane mortals, so the Indefatigable effect does not apply.
* The Catch [+5]: Applies to something specific (+2), Can be bypassed by amputation and any neck damage (+2), and knowledge of the catch is discoverable through research (+1).
Options: Every Immortal is unique. There are no specific restrictions on stunts, besides the normal refresh cut-off rules, and Supernatural Powers are possible, with GM approval.
Important Skills: Endurance, Lore
Minimum Refresh Cost: -2
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Here is an Immortal power based on that posted by ryanroyce. I removed mention of the recovery ability, added the quickening effect, raised the cost to -1, and changed some text to reflect the new cost.
Immortal [-1]
Description: You are an Immortal, ageless from the time of your first death, and you are not alone... yet. There can be only one.
Note: In terms of game effects, the uses of this ability are so minor and inherently balanced that they’re really almost cosmetic; hence the zero cost.
Skills Affected: Lore
Effects:
Ageless. As a side-effect of your supernatural existence, your lifespan is extended indefinitely. In game terms this will rarely have relevance.
Awareness. You can automatically sense the presence of another Immortal that comes within 2 zones of you, as if you had succeeded on a Lore: Mystic Perception roll. However, the other Immortal becomes aware of you even as you become aware of them, so no advantage is ever gained by either one. Other creatures may perceive this aspect of you through a Lore check, though success is not guaranteed.
Holy Ground. No Immortal knows for certain what would happen if they killed another on holy ground, they only know that they absolutely mustn't. As such, GMs are free to set their own penalties for violating this rule. Suggestions include negating this power entirely, at which point Father Time returns to collect his due, or inflicting an extreme consequence as if the Immortal had broken a magically binding oath (YS 274).
The Quickening. When an Immortal is beheaded, this passive ability grants the nearest living Immortal with a single fate point. In effect, this is the result of an automatic compel to the receiving Immortal's high concept. In addition, the benefits of either a Minor, Major, or Significant Milestone are received. The choice of which milestone - or is a milestone will be granted at all - is left up to the GM, but will generally reflect the strength of the decapitated Immortal. The milestone takes effect immediately and replaces the very next milestone that would be awarded to that character. In the event that this power is trigger multiple times in a single scene, it is recommended that only the fate point be given after the first activation. Optionally, the GM may limit the use of any milestone effects to those appropriate to the decapitated Immortal.
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So... suggestions, opinions, text that needs to be reworded or added? Is the Quickening effect specific enough while still giving needed options, and is the power to cheap since it can give fate points and a Milestone? Did I do the Recovery Catch wrong, or is that -1 cost correct?
Thanks for all the input, this is coming along nicely. :)
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Looks good to me. Though I'm a little shaky on the "Something Specific" factor in the Catch. I can see where you're coming from...but I'm really not sure if it applies. Still, the worst that would cause would be a reduction to Supernatural Recovery, and it looks good aside from that.
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Looks good to me. Though I'm a little shaky on the "Something Specific" factor in the Catch. I can see where you're coming from...but I'm really not sure if it applies. Still, the worst that would cause would be a reduction to Supernatural Recovery, and it looks good aside from that.
I agree on the something specific too. If it was could only heal from swords, or only heals the hands, that would be specific. This sounds more like a variation of the red vampire belly weak spot. Not sure about cutting the Indefatigable, have we seen an immortal tire(also as a way to do the not drowning), if not, the whole running on the beach scene does at least imply some extra reserves.
Still, -3 mythic recovery, for a -4 package cost.
Plenty of refresh left to take sword stunts in many games.
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Hmm...how about this modified version of Mythic Recovery (needs a new name for Immortals).
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Immortal Healing [-6]
Description: If you don't already know the general idea, go play on the swingset kiddo.
Musts: This power must be attached to a specific catch of "decapitation", worth +4 refresh (+2 reasonably accessible means, +2 well-known or easily discoverable). This power cannot be taken by characters without the Immortal template. Characters with this power may NOT take any other Toughness powers.
The Catch, Decapitation: This catch applies only when the Immortal is Taken Out by physical stress and consequences, and the opponent chooses to specifically behead the Immortal as part of their victory conditions. If the opponent does not choose to do so, the Immortal recovers according to the power's normal function.
Options: None.
Skills Affected: None.
Effects:
Total Recovery: You’re able to recover from physical harm that would leave a normal person permanently damaged. You can recover totally from any consequence (excluding extreme ones) with no other excuse besides time; simply waiting long enough will eventually heal you completely. This has the added benefit that you do not succumb to age, and will effectively live forever, though this will have little to no impact on gameplay.
Really Amazingly Fast Recovery: Out of combat,you may recover from all physical consequences before the beginning of the next scene after you receive them! The exception is extreme consequences, which are not affected by this power.
Ha! You Call That a Hit: Three times per scene, you may clear away a mild physical consequence as a supplemental action. Drowning, starvation, dehydration, and exposure are considered mild physical consequences that occur only once per scene for the purposes of this effect of this power ONLY.
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Now, as you can see, I removed Indefatigable entirely since immortals don't get any real endurance benefits that I've noticed, added a bit here and there, and modified three other parts.
I decided that if it's going to be a separate Toughness power of its own, and would be counterproductively redundant with other toughness powers, that only those who possess the Immortal template may take the power. Also, those who have this power cannot take other toughness powers, or else you'd end up with Immortals who can't die EVEN if you cut their head off, which is not kosher.
Extreme consequences seem like a good blanket problem for Immortals to be stuck with, explaining why they aren't covered in scars and why some injuries never heal right, and why they can't regrow hacked-off limbs. I imagine a hacked off limb HAS to be a pretty extreme consequence.
I took the opportunity to detail a little better just how decapitation relates as a catch to the power, hoping that it would make a little more sense. I'm not totally sure it's really worth +4 refresh as a catch, but honestly, it doesn't stop them from getting the crap beat out of them now and then though. Because of the fact that Really Amazingly Fast Recovery only functions OUT of combat, snotty brats like Ritchie can still get the piss kicked out of em by a small, random group of common thugs.
I adjusted "Ha, you call that a hit," to reflect that immortals seem essentially immune to things like drowning, starvation, dehydration, and exposure. They don't ever drown, they don't starve to "death," they don't "die" of dehydration, and they never "die" of anything like hypothermia, frostbite or any other such environmental condition. It's reasonable though that slapping more than three of those kinds consequences onto an Immortal might be more than they can handle.
Considering what's been taken from Mythic Recovery, is it reasonable to drop its cost by 1 for this "Immortals Only" version? Is the Catch too beneficial point-wise for something that will only occur infrequently since they have to be Taken Out first? Would both possibilities be acceptable? Maybe only +3 refresh for the catch on a power that costs -5?
Assessments, recommendations?
P.S.
I gotta say, I'm impressed how everyone is on the same wavelength with regard to which aspects of the Highlander franchise to draw from and which to ignore completely. lol I'm also impressed no one's brought up "the power that makes their swords appear out of thin air!"
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Yea, I was not to sure about the 'specific' part of the catch, so that is out. I agree, -4 minimum is not bad at all.
Not sure about cutting the Indefatigable, have we seen an immortal tire(also as a way to do the not drowning), if not, the whole running on the beach scene does at least imply some extra reserves.
Both of those are good points. I found no mention of any sleep differences from normal humans, but if someone can provide a source in the first movie or series that could be addressed again. However, with it catched out, it keeps the healing factor high while still keeping the cost low, so I think it works.
...I adjusted "Ha, you call that a hit," to reflect that immortals seem essentially immune to things like drowning, starvation, dehydration, and exposure. They don't ever drown, they don't starve to "death," they don't "die" of dehydration, and they never "die" of anything like hypothermia, frostbite or any other such environmental condition....
The not drowning is another thing I thought hard about. It has loose canon support at best, but in fanon it is pretty standard. So I think leaving it unmentioned and allowing players to buy that on their own, or GMs to rule that the recovery power handles it since it isn't excluded, is an acceptable solution.
As for the hypothermia, etc, I can't remember any source supporting that, though I do think I remember an Immortal in the series that was stranded on a desert island or something that kept dieing over and over from something like that and it drove him crazy. From a mechanics stand-point I would handle them like I suggested for drowning and just not mention them.
Hmm...how about this modified version of Mythic Recovery
I like it. Assuming there are no objections to more then one custom powers, I think it would make a good addition. :)
I would suggest the name 'Immortal Recovery'. Keep it simple and descriptive, while at the same time clearly placing in the Recovery branch of the power tree.
I especially dig the mention that only Immortal Templates can take the power. I think that would be good to add to the Immortal power.
The catch should probably stick with +3. Everyone seems to agree that is a resonable refund. Personally, I can see some reasons for the second +2, that part describes how hard it is to find out what the catch is, and that would require some research beyound the equivalent of a world-famous novel. So, change the second part of the catch to 'knowledge discoverable through research (+1)' and I would say it works. Also, the catch needs to mention that damage to the neck is uneffected by the power and, at best, heals at the noraml rate.
Characters with this power may NOT take any other Toughness powers. This I don't know about. I see your point, but it could be handle by stating something about Immortal Recovery replacing all other Recovery powers (and maybe Physical Immunity, either in general or specificly to death). That should stop the problem of headless Immortals still being alive, while not restricting super strong or uber tough Immortals.
I would also tend to agree that almost any amputation would count as an extreme consequence, but I'm curious if others also agree. Either way, it is a very elegant way to handle it mechanics-wise.
Total Recovery. Probably just a typo, but I'm assuming it should be "any consequence (excluding extreme physical ones)", the word physical being what I added. Also, I don't think the non-aging part should be tied to the recovery ability. Short of putting the Immortal power and the Immortal Healing power together as one, I think the end of aging effect should stay on the Immortal power.
EDIT: My bad, I reread Inhuman Recovery's Total Recovery Effect and it does say "(excluding extreme ones)" so, what was there is fine and it was me that was messed up. :)
Ha! You Call That a Hit. As I said above, remove the part about 'Drowning, starvation, dehydration, and exposure' being mild consequences and I'm on board.
Other then the things covered and refunded by the catch, the only thing remove from Mythic Recovery is the sleep thing (which like not ageing probably won't come up much) and the Endurance doesn't restrict part (which arguably has some mechanical relevance). Overall, I think -6 with a +3 catch balances well and what was taken away doesn't really need a reduction in cost, but I would like to hear what other who know the whole system better then me think.
And yea, it is cool how everyone is together on the good stuff of the franchise. The same people that would fight to the death over Star Trek or Star Wars prequels would all agree that Highlander sequals are iffy at best and horrible most of the time. But movies aside, taking all the franchise into account would lead to a very bloated template with most of the bloat having maybe one or two vague references in the canon. For those reasons and many more that may be personal and irrational, 99% of the movie and show seqeals aren't worth considering for what we want to make and it rocks that we're all on board with that. :)
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Below is the text I've been working on for the Template. I'm am not a great writer unless a rare moment of inspiration strikes me, but its better to have something then it is to have nothing. If anyone wants to make it better or write up one of their own, that would be sweet.
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Immortal
Immortals are a breed apart. Their power flows from the Quickening, healing their wounds, halting passage of years, and raising them from the dead. Only with the removal of their head will they know the eternal sleep of the grave and pass their power and knowledge on to the victor.
Unless a person destined to be an Immortal is killed by non-natural means, they will live and die a normal life, never manifesting any abilities. However, after the person meets that first death - usually a violent and bloody one - their Immortal powers will be awakened. Indeed, it is believed by many learned scholars that hundreds, if not thousands, of "Immortals" may live completely normal lives and die of old-age without a single soul ever knowing of their potential power.
To speak of 'Immortals' as a cohesive group is no less misleading then lumping all 'Humans' together in one general category. Immortals come from every conceivable background, rich to poor, young to old, royalty to peasant, soldier to scientist, and individuals are as unique as any given mortal human. Though Immortals are each unique, most tend to keep to themselves and avoid other supernaturals when possible. However, the circumstances of their lives, and the driving force of The Game, offer opportunities for many interesting and dangerous situations.
While an Immortal doesn't bring much direct supernatural strength to the table, a knack for the long-haul, and their relative ease at interacting with everyday society, give them an edge that few other non-mundane beings possess. Add in the accumulation of skills and stunts - as well as the possibility of other powers - and Immortals become a force that can hold their own in the world of supernaturals.
Musts: ... and then the rules stuff goes from here.
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I was thinking some more, and decided to rearrange things a tad more.
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Immortal Recovery [-6]
Description: If you don't already know the general idea, go play on the swingset kiddo.
Musts: This power always supersedes and replaces all other Recovery powers. This power cannot be taken by characters without the Immortal template. This power must be attached to a specific catch of "decapitation", worth +3 refresh (+2 reasonably accessible means, +1 well-known or easily discoverable).
The Catch, Decapitation: This catch applies when the Immortal is Taken Out by physical stress and consequences, and the opponent chooses to specifically behead the Immortal as part of their victory conditions. If the opponent does not choose to do so, the Immortal recovers according to the power's normal function. Physical consequences taken that involve the neck area are also subject to the catch and do not benefit from Immortal Recovery.
Options: None.
Skills Affected: Endurance, possibly other physical skills.
Effects:
Total Recovery: You’re able to recover from physical harm that would leave a normal person permanently damaged. You can recover totally from any consequence (excluding extreme ones) with no other excuse besides time; simply waiting long enough will eventually heal you completely.
Really Amazingly Fast Recovery: Out of combat,you may recover from all physical consequences before the beginning of the next scene after you receive them! The exception is extreme consequences, which are not affected by this power.
Vigorous: Endurance never restricts other skills due to a lack of rest.
Shrug It Off: In combat, once per scene, you may clear away a mild physical consequence as a supplemental action.
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After giving it some consideration, I made the following changes.
I took the suggestion about the name, the aging, the bonus Refresh from the Catch, the drowning and such. Personally, I still think the aging fits better with the recovery, but oh well.
I reworded the must regarding taking this power compared to other recovery powers. It's now possible to take the actual toughness powers, but the recovery powers are always overwritten by this one, with regard to Immortals only (who are still the only ones who can take this power anyway).
I added back in the bit about Endurance not restricting other skills, but left it at that. No going without sleep and such. I figure that alone should make them nigh-superhuman athletes, facilitating scenes like the one on the beach with ease and not much extra ruling.
Immortals never really seem to blow off up to 3 mild consequences DURING combat. Mostly it seems like they're only slightly more enduring than a pro fighter, if that. Considering that the only reason Duncan doesn't get beat to crap is because he's a martial arts master with over 100 years experience rather than his ability to recover quickly, while others get their noses busted and don't usually heal til later...seems to justify this. So, they can blow off 1 mild consequence during combat.
One final thing is occurring to me while I post this though. Would it be reasonable to just make Immortal versions of all three recovery and even toughness powers? Different Immortals do seem to recover more swiftly or be harder to hurt sometimes. Meh, just a thought.
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I added back in the bit about Endurance not restricting other skills, but left it at that. No going without sleep and such. I figure that alone should make them nigh-superhuman athletes, facilitating scenes like the one on the beach with ease and not much extra ruling.
I've never really saw a need to remove the Endurance benefit specifically, it was always the lack of need for sleep thing that struck me wrong. I think the Endurance part just kinda got taken away with the sleep. All in all, I don't have a problem with Immortals getting it.
Immortals never really seem to blow off up to 3 mild consequences DURING combat. Mostly it seems like they're only slightly more enduring than a pro fighter, if that. Considering that the only reason Duncan doesn't get beat to crap is because he's a martial arts master with over 100 years experience rather than his ability to recover quickly, while others get their noses busted and don't usually heal til later...seems to justify this. So, they can blow off 1 mild consequence during combat.
I agree that three seemed a bit high, but one also seems a bit low. Two might be a good compromise, but see my comments at the bottom of the post.
One final thing is occurring to me while I post this though. Would it be reasonable to just make Immortal versions of all three recovery and even toughness powers? Different Immortals do seem to recover more swiftly or be harder to hurt sometimes. Meh, just a thought.
If this was any other system, Wod, ADnD, GURPS, whatever, I would agree to a point, but DFRPG being less number/rules heavy, I think keeping the template light on non-fundamentals would be a good thing. Beyond covering the cosmetics, the quickening, and the healing, the template doesn't restrict what else a character could take, so I think the necessary variety is handled without us having to explicitly define it.
All that said, I'm starting to have second thoughts about the new power. The differences between Mythic and Immortal Recovery were small and have now shrunk by one more, the missing Endurance benefit. As it stands, there are three differences, the required Catch, the removal of no sleeping, and the lowering of the consequence soaking.
I think this could be handled in a simpler, and more dynamic, way.
1: Use the custom Decapitation Catch as a template must to cover that part.
2: To me, if the Endurance benefit isn't scrubbed out, then the no sleep stuff is just cosmetic and some simple text in either the musts part or in a 'Note' under the musts part would handle its exclusion just fine.
3: Add a template must that the character must choose one of, Inhuman, Supernatural, or Mythic Recovery. This will allow players and GMs to decide how resilient their Immortals are.
Does this seem a reasonable way to handle it, or is a new power necessary?
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I'm going to tinker with your original power Ryan, based on Jeckel's suggestions.
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Immortal [-1]
Description: You are an Immortal, ageless from the time of your first death, and you are not alone... yet. Now is the time of the Gathering, and there can be only one.
Skills Affected: None.
Effects:
Ageless: As a side-effect of your supernatural ability to recover from any injury, your lifespan is extended indefinitely. You also may not reproduce in any fashion. In game terms these will rarely have relevance.
Awareness: You automatically sense the presence of other immortals within 2 to 4 zones, determined by the GM in whatever manner best suits the story. However, those Immortals become aware of you even as you become aware of them, so no advantage is ever gained by either. This ability does not determine direction, distance, or number, only that one or more Immortals are in the area. This effect occurs each time a new Immortal is encountered, but only once per scene for any Immortal.
Holy Ground: No Immortal knows for certain what would happen if they killed another on holy ground, they only know that they absolutely mustn't. As such, GMs are free to set their own penalties for violating this rule. Suggestions include negating this power entirely, at which point Father Time returns to collect his due, or inflicting an extreme consequence as if the Immortal had broken a magically binding oath (YS 274).
The Quickening: For taking the head of another Immortal, you are immediately granted a Fate point, which you always receive no matter how often you take a head. Taking an Immortal's head also counts as a milestone, the degree of which to be determined by the GM according to the scope of the battle on the story. When achieved, this milestone replaces any milestone the Immortal would've normally received with the rest of the group for completing that part of the story. If you've already received a milestone for taking a head in a specific part of the story, you do not gain one at the conclusion of that part with the rest of the group.
The Catch, Decapitation: This power sets an automatic catch of decapitation for all toughness powers acquired by an Immortal, and no other catch may be defined for those powers. It is worth either +1 for Inhuman level toughness powers, or +3 for all others. This catch applies when the Immortal is Taken Out by physical stress and consequences, and the opponent chooses to specifically behead the Immortal as part of their victory conditions. If the opponent does not choose to do so, the Immortal recovers according to the power's normal function. Physical consequences taken that involve the neck area are also subject to the catch and do not benefit from toughness powers.
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I'm going to give it some more thought to try and streamline the wording. I made the power a -1 refresh because it seemed like a good idea at the time, but it's mostly irrelevant since that can be changed on a whim at any point in development.
After thinking about it, should the must of the template give the OPTION of Inhuman or better Recovery or Toughness? Either would serve as well, and both can fit, and it would open one more door to having a greater variety of Immortals right out of the gate. By adding the catch to Immortal instead, it's a blanket coverage of all toughness powers an Immortal might EVER take, even Physical Immunity...giving powerful immortals extreme potential, without nullifying their defining weakness.
I added the Quickening to it simply because aside from the Fate point, it doesn't do anything more than normal gameplay eventually would, not really worth a power on its own.
I was wondering, would a pair of Lawbreaker-style powers, one for Holy Ground and one for Dueling, really be too much? Rather than having them be the sorts of concrete penalties other games would impose, that would make them more story-oriented, just like the standard Lawbreaker powers. The more you break em, the more it taints you, but it makes it reasonable that the cheaters take more heads for it. Perhaps a Dark Quickening power with musts regarding a certain number of the Lawbreaker-style powers.
That might be a little out there, but I think they're as viable in potential as the Lawbreakers for magic, especially since we don't know for sure what either specifically does...but we DO know Dark Quickenings happen, and why.
Like I said, perhaps the most important thing now is streamlining the wording. I think so far things have gotten about as refined as they're going to get for now.
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I'm going to tinker with your original power Ryan, based on Jeckel's suggestions.
Ok, looks good all being in the one custom power.
I'm going to give it some more thought to try and streamline the wording. I made the power a -1 refresh because it seemed like a good idea at the time, but it's mostly irrelevant since that can be changed on a whim at any point in development.
True, but as long as the effects are mostly, but not fully, cosmetic a -1 cost seems fair.
After thinking about it, should the must of the template give the OPTION of Inhuman or better Recovery or Toughness? Either would serve as well, and both can fit, and it would open one more door to having a greater variety of Immortals right out of the gate.
I reread the Toughness powers, and while I agree that mechanically they and the Recoveries would accomplish the same thing, the thematics of Recovery just seem to jive better, and the both canon and fanon seem to accept it as a healing ability as opposed to a defense from damage ability. So I would suggest keeping it a requirement of one of the Recovery powers.
By adding the catch to Immortal instead, it's a blanket coverage of all toughness powers an Immortal might EVER take, even Physical Immunity...giving powerful immortals extreme potential, without nullifying their defining weakness.
That is a stroke of genius. I've been a little leery about possible combinations with Toughness and/or Physical Immunity, but that fixes that.
I added the Quickening to it simply because aside from the Fate point, it doesn't do anything more than normal gameplay eventually would, not really worth a power on its own.
As long as it is somewhere, that will work, and being on the Immortal power gives a little more validity to the -1 cost.
I was wondering, would a pair of Lawbreaker-style powers, one for Holy Ground and one for Dueling, really be too much? Rather than having them be the sorts of concrete penalties other games would impose, that would make them more story-oriented, just like the standard Lawbreaker powers. The more you break em, the more it taints you, but it makes it reasonable that the cheaters take more heads for it. Perhaps a Dark Quickening power with musts regarding a certain number of the Lawbreaker-style powers.
That might be a little out there, but I think they're as viable in potential as the Lawbreakers for magic, especially since we don't know for sure what either specifically does...but we DO know Dark Quickenings happen, and why.
I like the idea of a Lawbreakerish power for Holy Ground and don't think it would be excessive. Not about the Dueling one, are you meaning about it being one-on-one fights and the Lawbreaking power is for two Immortals fighting a single one? If it is, then yea, I also think that would be cool.
Like I said, perhaps the most important thing now is streamlining the wording. I think so far things have gotten about as refined as they're going to get for now.
I concur, this is looking really good. Besides the text streamlining you mention, I see only one thing that I think needs rewording. Its prob just copy/paste from the original Immortal power post, but the Ageless effect needs the 'recover' part changed to attribute the effect to their quickening energy, something more general, or really anything except tyeing it to their healing ability. My reasoning is that the lack of aging and the ability to heal both stem from the same cause, but neither causes the other. One could heal perfectly but still age, or not age and heal normally. Neither is mutually exclusive or mutually required. Like I said, I'm guessing that it was just copy/paste, but I wanted to put my thoughts on the subject out there so it isn't like I'm just irrationally opposed to agelessness being connected with healing real well. ;)
All in all, I think that works out perfect and will update the template accordingly. When you get the rewording done, post it on up here and I'll get everything polished up into some HTML and BBCode formats. :)
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Two other small things popped out at me in the Awareness effect.
I think it would be good to work the "as if you had succeeded on a Lore: Mystic Perception roll" part back in, and I like the change to 2 to 4 zones. Secondly, I also suggest including something similar to the original sentence "Other creatures may perceive this aspect of you through a Lore check, though success is not guaranteed." as well. The sense part is the only thing I can think of that isn't already covered by the system from the other Supernaturals' perspective.
But, aside from the few small things I mentioned, I think mechanically it absolutely rocks. Looking forward to hearing your ideas on the Lawbreakeresk powers. :)
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Might be a few days or so, but I'm on it.
Sticking with the Recovery power as the must is a good idea.
Oh, and you were correct about the one-on-one fight rule being the inspiration for the second Lawbreaker-style power. Immortals ganging up on another Immortal is a no-no, and goes against their very nature...even though neither the movie nor the series make much of a consequence of it other than it corrupts them, much like the standard Lawbreaker powers.
We'll see how it goes.
Anyone else got any canon Immortal combat etiquette besides those two? Has a list of canon "rules" for Immortal battles ever been fan-published anywhere? Don't wanna pile on too much, but only two rules just seems...thin. Otherwise, still totally doable as-is.
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Rules:
1. No use of modern or ranged weaponry (guns, tasers, etc.). We've seen Immortals do it...but never anyone sympathetic.
2. Never on Holy Ground. Never broken.
3. No ganging up (or accepting mortal help). Again, seen, but never by anyone laudable.
Those are all I can think of off the top of my head, actually.
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Rules:
1. No use of modern or ranged weaponry (guns, tasers, etc.). We've seen Immortals do it...but never anyone sympathetic.
2. Never on Holy Ground. Never broken.
3. No ganging up (or accepting mortal help). Again, seen, but never by anyone laudable.
Those are all I can think of off the top of my head, actually.
Still helpful. Honestly, even three is good enough...two just seemed, wrong.
Considering the nature of an Immortal's existence, I can definitely see that certain "dishonorable" melee tactics...such as shooting your opponent to "death"...would constitute a Lawbreaker-worthy offense. Their very existence is defined by single melee combat to the death, shooting or gassing someone to take their head while they're helpless would go against their very essence. As you pointed out...only the jerk-off Immortals like Xavier St.Cloud ever do it, and they're the most likely to have these Immortal-only Lawbreaker powers.
I don't personally think there are any others, but if anyone else comes up with any, feel free.
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Nice, I also think three sounds like a good number and I can't think of any others anyway, so that sounds like it will work out. I haven't read over the Lawbreaker stuff yet, so I won't bother making any comment on mechanics, but I'm assuming we need some kind of new name for them. 'Rulebreaker' pops to mind as an obvious option, but something a little more connected to Immortals would be cool, does anyone have any ideas?
Also, I'm planning to run a test campaign using the Immortal template over the next few months, so I'll post how it works out as the game progresses. :)
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Well, here's the first shot at the "Lawbreaker" style powers. Still no good ideas on names yet, so I'm going with Rulebreaker as a place holder. I'm modeling them almost directly off of the Lawbreaker powers, strictly for simplicity's sake at this time. It's their thematic effect that's most important, not the mechanics, after all.
I'm including the Dark Quickening as both a Rulebreaker power and an effect. Their relationship and use will be evident in the power's entry.
Also, an interpretive rundown of the nature of the rules and breaking them will be included at a later time.
Rulebreaker [-Varies]
Musts: This ability must be taken immediately upon violating one of the Rules of the Gathering. You must specify the rule broken at the time you take this ability. This ability must be taken separately for each rule broken - noted like so: Rulebreaker (first), Rulebreaker (third), etc.
Description: As an Immortal participating in the Gathering, you have violated one of the rules meant to restrain the impact of the Gathering on mortal society and ensure fair and impartial combat among Immortals.
- First: You have utilized ranged or area effect weapons such as guns or grenades, or you have used magic to incapacitate and/or kill another Immortal.
- Second: You have enlisted the help of one or more other beings, including non-sentient types such as beasts and ghosts, to kill another Immortal.
- Third: You have killed another Immortal on consecrated ground, or within the boundaries of a threshold augmented by true faith.
- Fourth: You have killed an Immortal that was under the influence of a Dark Quickening and did not spend the required fate point.
Skills Affected:
- First: Any. As stunts and powers, especially magic, allow for a very wide variety of skills to potentially violate this rule.
- Second: Most social skills, as well as any skills useful in ambushing an already engaged opponent.
- Third: Conviction.
- Fourth: Any. Whichever skill is used to deal the final blow is the one affected by this violation.
Effects:
Time's Taint: Gain a +1 to rolls involving the skill used to violate this rule each time you use the same skill in combat with another immortal to violate the specific Rule again. Increase the bonus to +2 if you've used the same skill to break the specific Rule three or more times; additionally, the the refresh cost of this ability increases from –1 to –2 and requires that you change one of your existing aspects into a version twisted by the violation of the rule. Every three times that you break this law past that point, another (different) aspect must be changed, though the refresh cost and skill bonus do not further increase. You cannot stack bonuses if you break multiple Rules in one battle—use the highest bonus.
Three-fold taint: Increase all skill bonuses from Rulebreaker abilities by one if you have three or more Rulebreaker abilities in any combination (i.e., if you’ve broken three or more Rules, sporting a Rulebreaker ability for each one), making the maximum possible bonus +3.
Dark Quickening: If you have three or more Rulebreaker abilities in any combination (i.e., if you’ve broken three or more Rules, sporting a Rulebreaker ability for each one), your Quickening becomes so tainted that for another Immortal to absorb it is harmful to them. An Immortal who takes your head must either spend a fate point and suffer a ___ stress mental attack that cannot be blocked or reduced, or immediately acquire Rulebreaker (fourth) as a power and suffer the same attack.
I considered keeping the Dark Quickening as its own thing, but I think it works better by incorporating it with the Rulebreaker powers.
Any suggestions on how much stress it should inflict? I'm thinking by the end of such a battle it should be awfully close to being enough to render an Immortal taken out after picking up some big consequences. Granted though, I suppose by the end of that it wouldn't take much. Under no circumstances should this ever result in something "good." Fun maybe, but never good.
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Well, here's the first shot at the "Lawbreaker" style powers.
Wow, for a first shot I think you hit the mark. 8)
I have a question though. Does the order of the rules matter? If it doesn't then I would suggest making holy ground the first rule. It seems to be the most metaphysical of the rules and canonly it seems to be the most important.
I especially like the way you worked Dark Quickening in such a straight forward way. Would a Light Quickening have any mechanical effect or warrant mention in the text?
As for the stress inflicted by the Dark Quickening. If the stress can not be blocked or reduced then couldn't you just cut out the middle-man and directly assign an appropriate consequence(s)? If that isn't mechanically sound, or is just plain crazy talk, then I can't really say a stress number, but maybe some kind of contested roll between the victim and attacker to determine the amount of stress might be a good way to handle it.
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I also got a few things done.
I renamed the Immortal power to Immortal Nature as it can get ambiguous when the power and template are both being discussed in the same block of text and always appending the words 'template' or 'power' isn't very practical. Any ideas for alternative names are welcome.
Did some rewording on the now Immortal Nature power. Mainly I combined ryanroyce's original version and Tharios's latest version. Best of both worlds and all that.
In order to run the test campaign I mentioned in my previous post, I needed a simi-finalized version to use, and seeing as the mechanics of the template and power are pretty stable (I've also made it clear that breaking the rules are outside this test game) I think it will work for now. Should better wordings, additional powers such as the Rulebreakers, or new stunts come along it can be further updated at that point.
Lastly, because of the mentioned test game and core stability, I have put the content in their own web-pages at the links below.
Immortal Template (http://www.vinlandsolutions.site11.com/Products/DFRPG/SampleTemplates/Immortal.html)
Immortal Nature Power (http://www.vinlandsolutions.site11.com/Products/DFRPG/SamplePowers/ImmortalNature.html)
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Wow, for a first shot I think you hit the mark. 8)
I have a question though. Does the order of the rules matter? If it doesn't then I would suggest making holy ground the first rule. It seems to be the most metaphysical of the rules and canonly it seems to be the most important.
I especially like the way you worked Dark Quickening in such a straight forward way. Would a Light Quickening have any mechanical effect or warrant mention in the text?
They're sort of in a specific order...a reversed order of severity. Which, was actually accidental. lol I hadn't intended any order at all, only that the Dark Quickening should be the final one in the list, owing to the fact the others have to be committed before you develop one. I guess then that I decided to just build up to the worst from the least. If you'd rather rearrange them, go right ahead, it doesn't actually matter to me. Like I said, it was mostly unintentional.
Generally, unless you chop Quickening out of the Immortal Nature power, there's no reason to make a more specific distinction between the two. Even then, there's no real need to further distinguish them. Perhaps add to the Dark Quickening effect, "For purposes of gaining a milestone, this effect otherwise functions as normal Quickening." Since obviously if it COSTS a fate point to avoid getting the Rulebreaker power of the same name, you can't EARN a fate point for it instead. However, another line might be helpful, "If the victor chooses to acquire the Rulebreaker (fourth) power, they gain a fate point as with the normal Quickening rules as well." It ends up being exactly like accepting or buying out of a compel. The only real difference between a normal or dark quickenings is the potential for being harmed or "marked" by the dark and that you can't buy out of a normal one...because, why would you really want to?
That all makes the whole thing a much less certain proposition. It could be a good idea, or just plain necessary NOT to spend that fate point even though it'll darken your soul a little.
One other thing that occurred to me. Considering how the game is already set up to deal with it, perhaps both types of Quickening can lay down a blanket hex on all devices within a few zones. The "lightning" is mostly a visual effect, but what it does to the surroundings seems a lot like a big-league wizard turning loose an uber-hex on a big area. Maybe add the following line to both, "Each piece of technology within 2 - 4 zones is affected as if by a 3 shift hex."
If you do decide to split the Quickening from from Immortal Nature, it won't actually take much to do so. Just remove the whole section from the power and use exactly that entry for the Quickening stand alone power. Then adjust costs as needed. Admittedly, the list of things Immortals can do will look a little sparse compared to other characters, which kinda sucks because let's face it...we all like to see a nice pretty list of kick-ass on our character sheets...just a little. lol
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Thanx for the answer about the order. I've been learning the mechanics of the game as the need arises, and since my players and I have agreed that the books sufficiently covered wizards, we want to try the other parts of the universe. As a result, wizards and their related material are my weakest point in the rules.
I see a lot of good ideas in the rest of what you said for things to add to a Quickening power and will put them on the list of possibles. But, for now I think normal and Dark Quickenings are enough and we can leave Light and Double Quickenings unmentioned.
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I've got a lot of work to do for school, so I won't be offering much in the way of revisions or new items. I don't know how long that will be the case, but I don't expect to being doing much else very often.
If I can, I'll offer up whatever happens to occur to me over time.
Good luck.
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I've got a lot of work to do for school...
No worries mate. I've been out of school for a decade and am now going back in August, so I know how it is. Your work to this point has be wonderful and totally appreciated. :)
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I considered keeping the Dark Quickening as its own thing, but I think it works better by incorporating it with the Rulebreaker powers.
Any suggestions on how much stress it should inflict?
I'm working on the Rulebreaker power and I think it is about done, besides some extra fluff info about the Rules of the Gathering. The one part left to finish though is the "___" part of the Dark Quickening effect. After reading through the Lawbreaker stuff and doing a search on the word 'stress' in the pdf, I came up with a few ideas.
I think 4 stress would be acceptable. It might take the character out, but they will come back and any consequences would heal quickly enough.
An option that popped to mind. The beheaded Immortal's Discipline could be used to roll an attack, the surviving Immortal also using Discipline to defend, and the stress/consequences would work themselves out according to the normal rules.
Either of those sound like acceptable solutions?
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Since I heard it mentioned else-thread, let it be know that this thread is Immortal. So fear not, raising it from the depths of the nether-pages requires not an ounce of necromatic power. I'm a slow poster, so a thread falling to page two or three doesn't mean much to me. Heck, if I have something to say, I'll happily pull a thread back to life from the bowels of the fabled last page. ;)
Either of those sound like acceptable solutions?
If there are no opinions either way or suggestions of how else to handle it, I'm going to default to something like:
Dark Quickening: If you have three or more Rulebreaker abilities in any combination (i.e., if you’ve broken three or more Rules, sporting a Rulebreaker ability for each one), your Quickening becomes so tainted that for another Immortal to absorb it is harmful to them. When an Immortal takes your head, roll your Discipline to make a mental attack that cannot be blocked or reduced. The Immortal victor must also spend a fate point or immediately acquire Rulebreaker (fourth) as a power.
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Since I heard it mentioned else-thread, let it be know that this thread is Immortal. So fear not, raising it from the depths of the nether-pages requires not an ounce of necromatic power. I'm a slow poster, so a thread falling to page two or three doesn't mean much to me. Heck, if I have something to say, I'll happily pull a thread back to life from the bowels of the fabled last page. ;)
If there are no opinions either way or suggestions of how else to handle it, I'm going to default to something like:
Dark Quickening: If you have three or more Rulebreaker abilities in any combination (i.e., if you’ve broken three or more Rules, sporting a Rulebreaker ability for each one), your Quickening becomes so tainted that for another Immortal to absorb it is harmful to them. When an Immortal takes your head, roll your Discipline to make a mental attack that cannot be blocked or reduced. The Immortal victor must also spend a fate point or immediately acquire Rulebreaker (fourth) as a power.
You looked at my Soul Reaper thread, I'm so happy! lol
The only question on that power that I'd have is...what's the stress of the attack? Is it the shifts of the dice, or what? Is it the number of the skill's level plus shifts, like fair being 4, I think? Just confused is all, otherwise sounds perfectly fine to me.
You and Tharios have seemed to put together a lot of awesome ideas for immortals, I'd be thrilled to have you make some suggestions on my own project.
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Heh, put the words 'Soul' and 'Reaper' in a tread title and I'm sure to happen through at some point. ;)
Good point about the amount of stress. Heading to bed now, will think about it tomorrow and post a rewording when I get home. Off the top of my head, and in need of sleep mind you, I think the part about "cannot be blocked or reduced" should be changed so it is a normal mental attack of Discipline vs. Discipline with the shifts of stress being decided normally. Is Discipline even the skill that should be used to make a mental attack? I think about it tomorrow and do some research in the book, but any suggestions or ideas are welcome, mental combat is still kinda outside my experience.
Thanx, I'm glad you like what we've put together, I know I'm going to use the crap out of this template and I hope others enjoy it as much. :)
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Ok, did some looking in the book and decided to make it a normal mental attack using Discipline to attack and defend. That seems to be the simplest way, stress and consequences being handled like any other attack, and doesn't require any new rules.
Dark Quickening: If you have three or more Rulebreaker abilities in any combination (i.e., if you've broken three or more Rules, sporting a Rulebreaker ability for each one), your Quickening becomes so tainted that for another Immortal to absorb it is harmful to them. When an Immortal takes your head, roll your Discipline skill as a mental attack that the victor may defend with his own Discipline. The Immortal victor must also spend a fate point or immediately acquire Rulebreaker (fourth) as a power.
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Alright, I've taken the silence as an affirmative to the acceptability of what I've posted and have proceeded accordingly... *takes deep breaths* that many big words.. :D
Anyway, I updated the Template and added a page for Rulebreaker. Immortal Nature link is listed again for completeness. Unless any major issues have been missed and pop up in the future, I'm considering this the final version, excluding some possible rewording of non-mechanical text.
Immortal Template (http://www.vinlandsolutions.site11.com/Products/DFRPG/SampleTemplates/Immortal.html)
Immortal Nature Power (http://www.vinlandsolutions.site11.com/Products/DFRPG/SamplePowers/ImmortalNature.html)
Rulebreaker Power (http://www.vinlandsolutions.site11.com/Products/DFRPG/SamplePowers/Rulebreaker.html)
If anyone gets creative and wants to put some text together that breaks down the Rules of the Game, similar to the part of the book discussing the Laws of Magic, that would be awesome and make a good addition to what we got. But I hope people find this stuff as fun to play as one of my players currently does. :)
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But I hope people find this stuff as fun to play as one of my players currently does. :)
Yep... some of us are still lurking this thread. Thanks for the effort.
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To be honest, I don't think the Quickening would be a big deal unless the beheaded in question had some kind of special power or stunt. You would just find yourself with the knowledge of a centuries old swordsman, which by definition, you already are. Maybe after experiencing the Quickening two or three times you could get some kind of ability, but that should be up to the GM.
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I am lurking as well - did you guys get to playtest it by chance? If so, what did you use and / or change?
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I thought I would see if anyone had given this anymore thought or playtested any variations?