So they're basically being penalized for having a concept of what they want to play.
Two things to note:
First, I do not know enough about the system to feel certain about any of my opinions regarding balance issues.
Second, it seems to me that Claws add several non-combat abilities (climbing, scratching open\damaging objects, and scaring the bejesus out of mundanes) plus they open up a number of maneuvers that allow you to add a number of different Aspects to the target (most of which would be incredibly easy to Tag or Invoke).
The balance issues for FATE are difficult to identify given the amorphous nature of Aspects. The ability to add aspects like "MAIMED" or "BLEEDING" or things like that which easily add to the power of everyone else, as well as your own character on subsequent attacks. Claws also allow you to Invoke certain aspects on targets, off the top of my head, you more easily tear off "Flesh Masks" and can take advantage of things like the Chlorofiend (which I would give the Aspect of "MADE OF PLANTS").
I strongly agree that claws should be -0 refresh, there not concealable and there nearly if ever more beneficial then equivalent mundane items, so theirs no logical reason why you should have to pay for them, it should simply be if it makes sense then you get them, if it doesn't then you don't.
Or they should be better. I'd be more inclined to jack up their damage than drop their Refresh, just because having claws strikes me as something that SHOULD be really nice and worth Refresh, but either solution would work.
All Aspects are created equal, at least, if they're the same type of Aspect (peronal, scene, consequence, etc.), the precise special effects (while relevant) are not any better than another special effect, at least not generally. Certainly not for claws.
And "Maimed" and "Bleeding" are both almost certainly consequences, and ones almost anybody can get if they're brutal enough. I can think of several ways to get them with a high Fists pure mortal, actually.
As for using Claws as an easy expression for other attributes (like horns) why don't you just make up a different power? As is pretty specifically stated, nothing in Your Story, or Our World is a shopping list, it is not comprehensive, and it is not the end all be all. You want a different power, make a different power, talk to your GM, and if it's reasonable you will almost certainly be allowed to take it.
Whether they're aspects or consequences doesn't matter much, and as a GM you're going to have to be incredibly convincing for me to allow you to inflict "BLEEDING" without having a weapon that can make someone bleed.Do some research into martial arts. its trivially easy to make a person bleed with bare hands. not to mention far more crippling aspects such as, plucked out your eye
All Aspects generate equal effects, this does not make them all equal. For example, the aspect of "BROKEN FINGER": I can invoke it, maybe, during any grapple, but not a whole lot else (without getting really creative). The aspect of "BLINDED" on the other hand, I can invoke on any defense roll that I take for as long as the Aspect (or consequence) lasts.
Whether they're aspects or consequences doesn't matter much, and as a GM you're going to have to be incredibly convincing for me to allow you to inflict "BLEEDING" without having a weapon that can make someone bleed.
The strength of this system is just how flexible and abstract it is, the weakness is just how flexible and abstract it is.
As for using Claws as an easy expression for other attributes (like horns) why don't you just make up a different power? As is pretty specifically stated, nothing in Your Story, or Our World is a shopping list, it is not comprehensive, and it is not the end all be all. You want a different power, make a different power, talk to your GM, and if it's reasonable you will almost certainly be allowed to take it.
Powers are not mechanics, if you want to do something cool, do it. Instead of changing the powers that you don't think are perfect, make one that you think is.
Some story tellers will view any attempt to make custom powers or change power as "cheese wheasily attempts to power game" regardless of weather or not such is intended to be part of the system.
Do some research into martial arts. its trivially easy to make a person bleed with bare hands. not to mention far more crippling aspects such as, plucked out your eye
Finally, there is no reason to take Claws the power over Cat's Claws the item. This seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Why are we assuming that powers are supposed to be more powerful than stunts?
Supernatural powers are very much the same as stunts, although they tend to pack more of a wallop. However, they often have more requirements before they can be taken—usually, at the very least, a high concept aspect indicating that the abilities represented by the supernatural powers are appropriate to the character.-Your Story, 146
They're built much like several mortal stunts all smashed together, getting two shifts (and maybe a little extra) of shift for every one refresh point they cost.-Your Story 158, emphasis mine
Taking a look at the power before Claws, Breath Weapon, you'll note that it is 2 refresh for a Ranged, Weapon:2 that is automatically concealed. On the other side, Claws is a Weapon:1. Period. You can't use it at ranged, it's by default seen. If you get it to Weapon:2, it's actually competitive with Breath Weapon instead of being solidly outclassed by it.
If a power can be entirely simulated by an easily obtainable mundane item. then there is no reason to ever take that power. this is a flaw in a system.This is not true on either count.
This is not true on either count.
A) You can take this power if you want your wolf\cat\bear form to have any sort of weapon. The reasons are cosmetic\character driven. There is no rules reason to take them, but that does not mean there is no reason to take the power.
B) Mundane and supernatural powers being interchangeable is not a flaw in the system. In fact, the option to do one thing many ways seems like a strength to the system to me.
"Pack more of a wallop" is due to higher refresh costs.
-Your Story 158, emphasis mine
I want to say that I agree that there is a power discrepancy between the powers. I disagree that Claws is vastly underpowered, and feel that either solution makes them more powerful than is intended. I also want to note that Breath weapon is ranged and a wpn 2, but that it does not stack with any other effect, giving claws an advantage in many cases. Plus your breath weapon is useless against a fairly large number of targets (no matter what element you pick).
I will say that a bonus to certain maneuvers would not be out of line. Another option is to add an upgrade to them "Supernaturally Sharp\hard". For one extra refresh you could add two points of shift (for a total of -2 refresh and +3 effect, a perfectly reasonable number in my mind) to the effect.
This is not true on either count.
A) You can take this power if you want your wolf\cat\bear form to have any sort of weapon. The reasons are cosmetic\character driven. There is no rules reason to take them, but that does not mean there is no reason to take the power.
B) Mundane and supernatural powers being interchangeable is not a flaw in the system. In fact, the option to do one thing many ways seems like a strength to the system to me.
where x equals the number of targets available-1 times the weapon rating used.
lets assume the max number of people in range at a time will be 5 and that we are using a weapon rating 3 bastard sword. so we will solve for the minimum and maximum amounts then.
(There's also very little expectation that characters would take it as a solo power. It's an embellishment. If you like, look at it as an upgrade on the strength abilities.)
And yeah, this'll make characters with claws a bit more dangerous. Precisely as much more dangerous as giving a character without claws a knife or brass knuckles (or a sword, if he's got a knife). Which is to say, a bit, but not an unreasonable amount.
Claws [-1]: +1 Stress damage to Fists attacks. 1 Stunt.
Nope. Look at Lethal Weapon, which is +2 and situational. +1 and general is well within the capacity of Mundane Stunts based on that precedent.
i disagree that the ability to do upwards of 20 additional damage is "a little more powerful" but i guess weve gotten all the response where going to.I disagree with some of your calculations, frankly. And your attitude.
Wall of Death
When using wall of death [and there's no restriction on how often you can use this other then having targets] your base weapon damage is multiplied by the lessor of your successes to hit or available targets. again for one refresh, always available and stacks.
+N damage N Stacks1 situationally usable-1 need weapon -1 can be concealed 1
Base [1-1]x3 =0 or [1-5]x3=12
With inhuman strength +2 damage done [1-1]x5 =0 or [1-5]x5=20
with inhuman strength and combining duel wield [1-1]x5 =0 or [1-5]x7=28/2 =14each
Now that I've found the time to review it, I think the real problem here is the stacking element. Some folks look at this as not worth one of the two shift-equivalents of effect in the ability, other folks do. So the trick instead may be, simply, to say that claws are Weapon:2, and since Weapon:X effects don't stack, leave it at that. You'll still be able to pile your Strength abilities on top of it, but some of the mundane Fists stunts will be redundant with it.
Will any changes (or even options for different versions, say, one stacking, one not) be making it into the book, or are we talking house rules territory here?
The Weapon:2 version's the one i'm rolling with (just finished the edit pass -- a lot of creatures have 'em, so the world just got +1 stress more dangerous). Anything outside of that will be a house rule or new power. :)
Claws gives you natural weapons. My assumption was that there is an implied skill substitution here. Your Fists skill now defends against Weapons as well as Fists (you are armed) and Fists is now effective against armoured opponents.
I could be reading things into the text that isn't intended. If so, I have a new house rule.
Except for Close in Defence, Fists only defend against Fists and Fists is only useful against unarmoured opponents. Whereas Weapons defends against Weapons and Fists and works against armoured opponents.
Claws gives you natural weapons. My assumption was that there is an implied skill substitution here. Your Fists skill now defends against Weapons as well as Fists (you are armed) and Fists is now effective against armoured opponents.
I could be reading things into the text that isn't intended. If so, I have a new house rule.
The fix is in; I'm bowing out of this thread.
Fists can defend against some weapons as well, and sometimes against guns. The only time fists can't be used as a defense is if the range of the weapon prevents you from doing so (a sword, or a gun from another zone). There is nothing saying fists don't affect armored foes.
Claws would not provide justification for using fists to defend against swords because they still face the difference in reach problem.
What they said. Claws are cool, but they don't really justify defending from things you can't with Fists. What do you do, bite the sword? That...has logical issues.
If you want to defend with Fists vs. attacks it otherwise can't there's the Footwork stunt for that (which is, BTW, an awesome Stunt).
Understood. And thanks again for being just generally awesome. :)