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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Victim on April 21, 2010, 02:23:47 AM
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The Martial Arts stunt allows you to use Fists as a perception/knowledge skill for making assessments and declarations, but only for fighting style. It's a pretty standard example of adding a new trapping to a skill.
But why would a skill swap stunt be the requirement for half of the Fist stunts? If you already have other knowledge/perception skills to make assessments - which shouldn't be too unusual - then you're essentially spending a refresh just to access the other stunts (and get a more limited version of something you already have). It's not like those stunts are amazing either - Redirected Force basically equivalent to Riposte; Armed Arts isn't too far from Hand Eye Coordination.
Sure, you can use Fists whenever, as opposed to needing a weapon out, so they can apply more often. However, it seems like you're already paying for that in lower damage.
Martial Arts was the only stunt in the book that served as a requirement to other stunts - as opposed to SotC, where all skills had stunt trees. Why restrict Fists, of all skills, in this way? It seems a little like too much focusing on the name of the Stunt as opposed to what it does.
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This is an excellent point, actually. None of the Stunts that follow Martial Arts seem good enough to absolutely require prerequisites, at least to me, and I think it really is the only example of stunts requiring prerequisites still in the book.
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Generally giving a stunt a prerequisite is about allowing that stunt to be just a tidge more potent (possibly instead more broad). We figured martial arts would be a way to chart that sort of thing out, though really, you can ignore the prereq element if you like. (But I think it feels more real if people have to *understand* fighting styles before they can gain their benefits.)
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Generally giving a stunt a prerequisite is about allowing that stunt to be just a tidge more potent (possibly instead more broad). We figured martial arts would be a way to chart that sort of thing out, though really, you can ignore the prereq element if you like. (But I think it feels more real if people have to *understand* fighting styles before they can gain their benefits.)
Well, it doesn't seem like the ability to make analyze fighting styles is unique to martial arts, since other skill types can do the same thing without an inherent limitation. How someone buys that capability didn't seem to be of great importance.
Second, it seems weird that the default assumption seems to be that someone with Superb Fists wouldn't understand what they're doing. I mean, that character is essentially operating at a free tag above a Fists 3, MA character (which seems pretty good for someone not planning on punching monsters in the face). Effectively, the advantage that character with MA can gain with study is applied reflexively by the other character.
Finally, what MA based stunts are more potent than usual? Guns has something like Armed Arts, letting the character use Guns for certain weapons. Weapons has Riposte, which is a lot like Redirected Force (except probably better). There's Lethal Weapon, which is +2 damage with a limit that comes up a lot. Weapon 2 can be quite good though. However, it seems less like a bonus for a prerequisite stunt and more like something to make up for the inherent lack of damage to Fists attacks. Other skills can get something like +1 damage for a stunt (target rich environment/way of the bow for Guns, Off hand weapon training for melee) and start with more damage.
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I was just going to drop the prerequisite.
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Or just call it "Seasoned Brawler" instead. Or come up with your own stunt to do it. There's nothing to say you can't do either :)
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Finally, what MA based stunts are more potent than usual? Guns has something like Armed Arts, letting the character use Guns for certain weapons. Weapons has Riposte, which is a lot like Redirected Force (except probably better). There's Lethal Weapon, which is +2 damage with a limit that comes up a lot. Weapon 2 can be quite good though. However, it seems less like a bonus for a prerequisite stunt and more like something to make up for the inherent lack of damage to Fists attacks. Other skills can get something like +1 damage for a stunt (target rich environment/way of the bow for Guns, Off hand weapon training for melee) and start with more damage.
I agree. I would like to see how "tidge more potent" Martial Arts stunts are supposed to be. The people in charge of the RPG have done a good job of toning down the stronger stunts, now I would like to see them toning up the stunts if they are supposed to be more potent than the usual.
Many RPG writers often water down abilities that they think are too strong, they often drop the ball when dealing with abilities that are weaker than they should be. I am curious to see if the Dresden RPG is an exception.
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I agree. I would like to see how "tidge more potent" Martial Arts stunts are supposed to be. The people in charge of the RPG have done a good job of toning down the stronger stunts, now I would like to see them toning up the stunts if they are supposed to be more potent than the usual.
Many RPG writers often water down abilities that they think are too strong, they often drop the ball when dealing with abilities that are weaker than they should be. I am curious to see if the Dresden RPG is an exception.
The Dresden RPG is the exception because the system has been designed for maximum flexibility, so that if you don't like the stunts offered for fists, you can and should make up your own stunts. That's why the stunt chapter starts by giving guidelines on how to create stunts.
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The Dresden RPG is the exception because the system has been designed for maximum flexibility, so that if you don't like the stunts offered for fists, you can and should make up your own stunts. That's why the stunt chapter starts by giving guidelines on how to create stunts.
That is not really different from asking the GM to house rule away the Martial Arts requirement for those stunts.
And what you say could also be applied to some of those stunts that were deemed to be too strong. Why then did the writers move so quickly to nerf them?
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That is not really different from asking the GM to house rule away the Martial Arts requirement for those stunts.
I think that that is more of a feature of the system than a problem. The game is built to be house ruled. If you think about it, fate points are just a system of elaborate temporary "house rules"
And what you say could also be applied to some of those stunts that were deemed to be too strong. Why then did the writers move so quickly to nerf them?
I can offer speculation, but I'd need examples of the stunts you are talking about.
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A couple reasons. One, the stunts are all example stunts. Sure, players can take them (and should, if they precisely fit their concept), but they're only there to give concrete instances of the rules guide they started with.
Two, everywhere that they can, they try to make sure that all the examples are representative of approximately what the RPG designers would want in their games. Not what should be in every game, but 'when we roll, this is how we roll'. They're often selected because their particular flavor is exemplar of the relative flavor our authors prefer... but not because they're what the authors expect us to run.
They've said it time and time again, it's our game once we're holding it.. My attempts at alterations have mainly been to verify "Are you sure this is the tone you want to convey?"
So if you have concerns about the Martial Arts tree, approach it analytically, make comparisons, make suggestions for the apparent tone, and ask them yourself if this is what they actually wanted.
Then you'll have your answer. Me, I'm too busy giggling over enchanted items, but that's probably the drugs talking.
("Oh, I get it, it's a MAAAAAAGICAL diorama." "Shut up, it's a precise arcane instrument." "That looks like you should populate it with lego men." "SHUT UP.")
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On a similar note, I was struck that Killer Blow looked great for a SotC stunt, but underpowered for Dresden. The difference is that having the stunt at all already cost a refresh, and therefore represents the loss of a fate point. So effectively it looks like it costs two fate points for a +3 damage bonus. Any character likely to have the Killer Bonus stunt probably has enough aspect that if they were willing to blow two fate points for a particular swing, they could tag something relevant to combat.
It breaks even if you use it twice in one refresh period, but you had to pre-commit a fate point to it, and it only breaks even. So if you use it three times, it starts to make up for having lost flexibility. Does that seem appropriate, or, more likely, am I missing something?
If the effect is indeed not adjusted for the impact of is refresh cost, then I would ask whether there are other stunts that are similarly underpowered because they effectively pre-spend a fate point.
Aside: I should note that I'm loving the pre-order!
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I see killer blow as being a case of "if you really absolutely must wreck complete devastation" kind of thing. Sure, its more economical to just tag two aspects in most circumstances, but killer blow can be used in conjunction with regular aspect tagging to take damage beyond the potential of a guy who can just tag aspects.
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Yeah, Killer Blow seems weak. Maybe up it to +4 damage? That'd make it break even if used once, and start being an advantage if used two times or more.
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I can offer speculation, but I'd need examples of the stunts you are talking about.
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17278.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17278.0.html)
That may not be the best example but evidently the issue was settled swiftly, all on the same day if the posts were to be believed.
The issue of Martial Arts was raised on 20 April. In both cases, it was Iago that responded. So let's see how much longer it will take them to make changes to Martial Arts, if at all.
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The issue of Martial Arts was raised on 20 April. In both cases, it was Iago that responded. So let's see how much longer it will take them to make changes to Martial Arts, if at all.
What you're going to need is a breakdown of how Martial Arts falls short. So far, the only issues that have been cogently raised are the core stunt (which was addressed by Fred), and Killer Blow.
If there's something else, or you don't feel Fred's answer is insufficient, we need to know what and why.
Here's my attempt at elaborating on the case of the core stunt.
'Martial Arts' isn't necessarily just mean eastern Asian fighting styles; that's just a generalization like so much in the system.
Comparing the Fists 3 + MA character to the Fists 5 character, you're looking at a combination of training and skill versus simple raw output potential. Since we don't have a complicated stat system as a basis, we don't have things like a strength stat as a backer for melee attacks. Our analog is just raising the skill higher on the column.
The advantage that the MA tree has over the Weapons tree, is that your fists can't be taken away from you. You can't be disarmed without being dis-armed (pun for effect). This inherently makes it a more generalized set of stunts. Just think for a moment about the Dresden books, and how often Harry has something taken away from him mid-fight. Someone with more unarmed potential doesn't need to stop and get their gear back; in their portion of the narrative, they are always ready to go.
Personally, I'm inclined to agree from my vague recollections that Killer Blow is possibly too weak for the total costs and the raw situational nature of it. What else in the MA tree suffers from this, or is this the only real egregious example, and everything else is kind of on the line?
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I see killer blow as being a case of "if you really absolutely must wreck complete devastation" kind of thing. Sure, its more economical to just tag two
aspects in most circumstances, but killer blow can be used in conjunction with regular aspect tagging to take damage beyond the potential of a guy who can
just tag aspects.
My point was that it does not particularly "take damage beyond" that potential: between two otherwise equivalent opponents, the guy with the stunt, Killer, has one less fate point than the guy without, called Fred. Thus Fred can tag two aspects on that first hit and get +4 whereas Killer can only spend one fate point, but gets +3 for it. At the second exchange they are even. At the third exchange, Killer pulls ahead by one point of damage, but by this time they've both spent 5 fate point in three exchanges. I'd expect a little more zing with such a deep investment before it pays off. (And again, I haven't play-tested it, so maybe in practice Killer would spend 5 or 6 fate points a session on his Blow and it's worth it).
But I like void's point, so I'll take a look at the other Fists stunts:
- Footwork: looks great. It makes me want to name it "Float like a butterfly" and have a corresponding "Sting like a bee" stunt.
- Martial arts: I had assumed that assessments and declarations could be made from any skill, in which case this stunt would be weak. If that otherwise must be a specific trapping, then this looks good.
- Armed arts: looks great. I was initially comparing this to a SotC skill-substitution stunt, but I like that those were toned down a fair bit. This has nice color
- Lethal Weapon: the restriction to unarmored opponents seems unnecessary and limiting. It substantially drops the effectiveness of martial artists in
many common scenarios, for example magical defence can be used as armor (and will be more frequently with the new crafting rules). Just giving the damage bonus reflects things like your bones really are thicker/harder because they been subjected to the relevant stress, you do hit harder because you don't subconciously flinch, etc. - Redirected Force: looks great. It seems much weaker than Riposte though. See below
- Step into the blow: looks great. It is an interesting complement to Redirected Force; together, if your defense succeeds, you place an aspect. If it fails, you hit them. Maybe it's the one I will call "Stings Like a Bee" :)
Riposte seems too powerful: as described, it precludes the attacker from employing other means of defense (e.g., it let's and axe wielder parry the mage's wimpy athame attack, skip right past his +10 magical block, do potentially wopping weapon damage, and potentially pop the shield since it was bypassed to boot). Prototypical fencing also has people countering a riposte, setting up an opportunity for it to lead people in, etc. With this stunt, the target cannot even invoke aspects to save himself form the attack. Perhaps permits you an immediate attack at a bonus or some free stress (as in SotC), but not obviate the combat process and all the mechanisms that it engages. Since ripostes worth mentioning are interesting storywise, perhaps it allows you to spend a fate point for a free immediate attack (possibly even at a minus; it is free, after all).
I don't understand the logic of requiring Martial Arts for any of these stunts though. They already are mortal stunts, which in theory means they can have a little more oomph. With lethal weapon, you hit could hit them like a pile driver whether they are doing karate or the Texas Two-step. Perhaps a motivating reason is that without this incentive, people might not buy the declarations/assessment trapping, and thus miss out on a lot of fun/storypower.
FWIW, Demoralizing Stance has been great fun in SotC play.
And again, all this is based on analysis rather than playtest, so take it with a grain of salt as "just trying to help". Overall, I'm just absolutely delighted with the rules :).
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My point was that it does not particularly "take damage beyond" that potential: between two otherwise equivalent opponents, the guy with the stunt, Killer, has one less fate point than the guy without, called Fred. Thus Fred can tag two aspects on that first hit and get +4 whereas Killer can only spend one fate point, but gets +3 for it. At the second exchange they are even. At the third exchange, Killer pulls ahead by one point of damage, but by this time they've both spent 5 fate point in three exchanges. I'd expect a little more zing with such a deep investment before it pays off. (And again, I haven't play-tested it, so maybe in practice Killer would spend 5 or 6 fate points a session on his Blow and it's worth it).
My point about killer blow was that it gives you the option to total the damage beyond what you would be able to do with aspects. If you fight be spending fate points here and there to give you an extra boost, then killer blow doesn't offer much of an advantage. But if you are the type of person to save up a bunch of points for that final fight scene, then you can use killer blow, in addition to the other aspects that you would be able to tag. That could make a significant difference. Of course, it is highly situational, more so than most stunts, so I won't complain if the folks at evil hat make it better. I think that it would be a lot easier to use if the restriction of once per scene were taken out, because in some games, you will only get one or two scenes of fighting (or at least fighting that is big enough to justify a fate point expenditure) squeezed into an entire session.
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If there's something else, or you don't feel Fred's answer is insufficient, we need to know what and why.
'Martial Arts' isn't necessarily just mean eastern Asian fighting styles; that's just a generalization like so much in the system.
I don't recall saying that it did mean only Asian styles, or that there was a problem with the name of the stunt.
The advantage that the MA tree has over the Weapons tree, is that your fists can't be taken away from you. You can't be disarmed without being dis-armed (pun for effect). This inherently makes it a more generalized set of stunts. Just think for a moment about the Dresden books, and how often Harry has something taken away from him mid-fight. Someone with more unarmed potential doesn't need to stop and get their gear back; in their portion of the narrative, they are always ready to go.
Yeah, Fists can't be disarmed. It pays for this advantage with lower damage - even Weapon 2 is pretty easy to get for Weapons skill, and weapon 1 is pretty trivial. Moreover, someone actually worried about getting disarmed can carry multiple weapons.
Also, Deceit can be used to conceal items (like weapons), so you can attempt to minimize the time spent without weapons).
Personally, I'm inclined to agree from my vague recollections that Killer Blow is possibly too weak for the total costs and the raw situational nature of it. What else in the MA tree suffers from this, or is this the only real egregious example, and everything else is kind of on the line?
Martial Arts allows the character to make declarations and assessments. Other perception and knowledge skills can do the same thing. So if the character already has those abilities (because you wanted initiative, you're playing Batman or a tiny police detective, etc), then the Martial Arts stunt is redundant with the character's other traits. But, by RAW, it's still necessary to take Martial Arts to open up some of the other Fists stunts. Even if the exact aspects you can find/invent with Martial Arts will differ from what other skills can provide, you could still come up with something.
While the other MA requiring Fist stunts can be good (Footwork looks great, but doesn't require MA), they seem equivalent to stunts from other skills. There doesn't seem to be any additional advantage that justifies those 3 stunts being the only stunts in the game with a requirement.
Lethal Weapon's damage bonus is less controllable than some other damage boosting stunts, and automatically worthless against a wide range of opponents. Especially if a lot of mortals wear some kind of armor too.
Killer Blow looks more interesting since you know you've hit before you spend the FP. Invoking aspects is going to be generally better since they boost accuracy too, but you may end up with nothing if your opponent decides to match your investment (or is just good at defense). By the time Killer Blow can take effect, it's too late for them to do anything about it.
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I always thought of fist as a more lower power level skill, but i think of you have claws you use fist, and then it can be pretty deadly!
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I always thought of fist as a more lower power level skill, but i think of you have claws you use fist, and then it can be pretty deadly!
Claws are 1 damage for 1 refresh, and aren't concealable by default (granted Human Guise is -0).
Strength powers provide 2 damage for 2 refresh, adds other benefits relating to Might and grapples, is not an obvious weapon. Moreover, you can also stack strength with muscle driven weapons - like most melee weapons - to further boost damage. So you can combine a free weapon 2 with Strength to hit for 4 damage, whereas Claws doesn't stack with weapons.
In terms of damage adding powers, Strength powers have the same overall damage efficiency as claws, have higher peak damage since they stack with weapons, and provide other benefits. So Claws aren't exactly going to be a part of too many ideal combos.
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So Claws aren't exactly going to be a part of too many ideal combos.
Thus why ive houseruled claws to be -0 refresh