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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Sh33p on April 20, 2010, 09:27:48 PM

Title: Swords Nitpick
Post by: Sh33p on April 20, 2010, 09:27:48 PM
A very minor nitpick on the swords: Islam claims direct descent/familial ties to Judeo-Christianity. Muslims regard Christ as a Prophet. Shouldn't the Swords also be drawing on power from the billion Muslims on the planet too?

I know it's not much, but we've had an agnostic and a probable Shinto-Buddhist Knight. May have even had a recent Muslim Knight too ("The Egyptian" - Egypt ain't known for being a hub of Christianity in modern times), to say nothing of Shiro's idea that "God is God" -- which may or may not draw power from Hinduism too, if you squint at it a bit.
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: iago on April 20, 2010, 09:32:24 PM
Is this an objection to a specific passage in the text? Page number?
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: KnightFerrous on April 20, 2010, 09:38:42 PM
I believe he referring to the marginalia on ys278 converning how the swords of the cross channel the faith of all the christians on the planet.
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: iago on April 20, 2010, 09:41:10 PM
I believe he referring to the marginalia on ys278 converning how the swords of the cross channel the faith of all the christians on the planet.

Thanks! I'll add an interjection in there ala "—and possibly other faiths as well—" soon as I get a chance.  (I mean, they are Swords of the Cross, so I get why it was said that way, but the OP is absolutely right, and I think they're more a focus for faith in the White God in its many forms.)
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: Rel Fexive on April 20, 2010, 10:43:45 PM
It certainly opens a lot more interesting doors, that's for sure.



Oh, and Posty McPosterpants?  Nice.
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: iago on April 20, 2010, 10:49:26 PM
Oh, and Posty McPosterpants?  Nice.

That's for people who have a lot of posts. :)
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: chadu on April 20, 2010, 11:01:57 PM
Thanks! I'll add an interjection in there ala "—and possibly other faiths as well—" soon as I get a chance.  (I mean, they are Swords of the Cross, so I get why it was said that way, but the OP is absolutely right, and I think they're more a focus for faith in the White God in its many forms.)

Also, Sanya is descended from Saladin (IIRC), who was definitely not a Christian.

I concur.
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: Tush Hog on April 20, 2010, 11:45:17 PM
I suppose rewording it like that would be fine, but like it's been mentioned - they are the Swords of the Cross. I think Christians are the only ones who believe in the miracle of the Cross. Muslims don't believe Jesus was crucified, seems kind of hard to channel faith of entire religion of Islam through the swords in that case -- to me anyway.

So, while the Knights might have a broad spectrum of possibilities, the swords seem to be definite Christian artifacts.

 
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: Mal_Luck on April 21, 2010, 12:07:42 AM
Also, Sanya is descended from Saladin (IIRC), who was definitely not a Christian.

I concur.

And Shō Tai was?  :P

And as Sanya shows, anyone of any faith, or lack-thereof, could wield the swords. Christian symbol they might be, but Sanya would likely argue that they are a symbols of Good, rather than any particular religion.
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: KnightFerrous on April 21, 2010, 12:38:47 AM
This is why one of the character ideas i had in order to play a knight of the cross without breaking cannon was having the Spear of Longinus reforged as a roman gladius with a red blade. It should have the same properties as the nails yes? but It hasn't been mentioned at all in the series.
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: Mal_Luck on April 21, 2010, 12:54:27 AM
Wouldn't that be the antithesis of the swords themselves? Most media I can think of portrays the spear as an evil weapon wielded by evil people (unless your using it for an evil person :P ). The Spear of Longinus is an interesting idea though, wouldn't surprise me if it made an appearance in a future book.

In a D&D game I actually included the swords, though I just called them The Knights of the Sword. Basically instead of nails, the swords all had a piece of the blade of a single sword wielded by former hero/ascended god. The Fourth Sword, the Sword of Hate, was made from the scrap metal left over from the forging of the three swords and therefore "hated" the Knights of the Sword. I had a proper name for it like the other swords, but can't remember how I spelled it.
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: KnightFerrous on April 21, 2010, 12:58:26 AM
I honestly never saw why it was portrayed as evil by that logic the nails that held Him to the cross would be evil as well. Though i can see the spear being a powerful artifact of good or evil depending on who held it as it is imbued with the blood of the divine.
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: Mal_Luck on April 21, 2010, 01:07:38 AM
I honestly never saw why it was portrayed as evil by that logic the nails that held Him to the cross would be evil as well. Though i can see the spear being a powerful artifact of good or evil depending on who held it as it is imbued with the blood of the divine.
I concede that point, more my media colored knowledge of the Spear. But the nails only held him, while the spear actually killed him (or not, I won't pretend to be a expert on the Bible). But still, were I to GM a game with it... the spear would probably be a weapon of darkness, but that's more my familiarity with the spear.
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: KnightFerrous on April 21, 2010, 01:15:50 AM
The spear did kill him, but only because the nails were taking too long and the sun was going down so they had to return to their homes for the Sabbath. But to me that is like saying "No officer I didn't kill him, i just held his arms so the other guy could kill him."

 But to each their own
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: Mal_Luck on April 21, 2010, 01:20:58 AM
A small change in topic...

I'm actually more curious as to why Fidelacchius and Esperacchius had to be reworked into their current incarnations (katana and saber). Has Jim ever commented on this?

In the back of my head my thinking would be if the sword was unmade it would have to be reworked... but that's more a guess.
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: KnightFerrous on April 21, 2010, 01:28:51 AM
Honestly i always saw it was updating the swords to blend in more with the times with Ammorichias' wielders refusing to.
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: BobForPresident on April 21, 2010, 01:41:03 AM
I believe he referring to the marginalia on ys278 converning how the swords of the cross channel the faith of all the christians on the planet.

Marginalia. I learned a new word today. One that sounds like a terrible disease.
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: KnightFerrous on April 21, 2010, 01:47:13 AM
if contracting it means that no matter what you do on the computer you always have this forum and the pdfs open and ready to go then i am pretty sure i have contacted Marginalia...
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: SaintAndSinner on April 21, 2010, 02:15:46 AM
The spear did kill him, but only because the nails were taking too long and the sun was going down so they had to return to their homes for the Sabbath. But to me that is like saying "No officer I didn't kill him, i just held his arms so the other guy could kill him."

 But to each their own

Actually the spear did not kill him.  It merely confirmed that he was dead.  This was after they had decided not to break his legs to speed up the process.  The spear when it entered his side let loose a flow of blood and water.  The separation of blood into the red and clear liquids doesn't happen unless you are dead and the blood is no longer moving. 
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: KnightFerrous on April 21, 2010, 02:22:22 AM
Actually the spear did not kill him.  It merely confirmed that he was dead.  This was after they had decided not to break his legs to speed up the process.  The spear when it entered his side let loose a flow of blood and water.  The separation of blood into the red and clear liquids doesn't happen unless you are dead and the blood is no longer moving. 

Well there ya go, proof i don't know everything and should stop acting like i do *bows and conceeds point to SaintAndSinner*

Which just puts even more weight behind my not considering and instrument of evil.
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: SaintAndSinner on April 21, 2010, 02:34:28 AM
Well there ya go, proof i don't know everything and should stop acting like i do *bows and conceeds point to SaintAndSinner*

Which just puts even more weight behind my not considering and instrument of evil.

No problem.  B-)

I'm a pathologist so these sort of details stand out to me (everyones a geek in their own way).
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: Papa Gruff on April 22, 2010, 11:24:38 AM
I thought about the Holy Lance as a prop for a knightish kind of char too. For me it's just a neat way to keep in line with the Novels (
(click to show/hide)
).

A member of my group thought of the Lance as a weapon of evil too, but honestly that never crossed my mind. After some research I can see why you might get this impression though. For a long time the lance was owned by german kings and was used as a base of their royality. It was rumored that an army carrying the Lance in front of it could not be defeated. When Hitler and the Nazis came along they tryed to incorporate the lance into their propaganda (I know ... sounds just like "Raiders of the lost Ark"). So it's kind of tainted by them.

Longinus testified that Jesus was realy Gods son and converted to Christianity after the crucifixion. At some point he was declared a saint.
(click to show/hide)

Over the years several copys were made of the relique. Who knows where the Lance has ended up and to what purpuse it might be used.

For those who want wo learn more. There is a very nice Wikipedia article about the Holy Lance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Lance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Lance)
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: Valarian on April 22, 2010, 12:59:18 PM
Nothing to say that there couldn't be a Muslim equivalent to the Knights of the Cross (the Sword of Allah?), bearing the sword of Muhammad. The sword could only be used by someone willing to submit themselves totally to the will of God. Sort of a Zen combat state.

The Knights do have a varied background, but there's nothing to say that they're the only Champions of God out there.
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: Papa Gruff on April 22, 2010, 02:17:21 PM
Nothing to say that there couldn't be a Muslim equivalent to the Knights of the Cross (the Sword of Allah?), bearing the sword of Muhammad. The sword could only be used by someone willing to submit themselves totally to the will of God. Sort of a Zen combat state.

The Knights do have a varied background, but there's nothing to say that they're the only Champions of God out there.


Exactly ... an other player of my group was tossing aground the idea of some kind of "Staf of Budda" and a Shao-Lin Monk wealding it the other day. If you are going for other deitys just think along the lines of the Shinto Kami ... how many are there? 5 million?

If you want to play a Knight of the Cross kind of PC but want to keep the Dreden-Lore intact it should be easy to find a deity to work with.
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: svb1972 on April 22, 2010, 02:50:41 PM
Exactly ... an other player of my group was tossing aground the idea of some kind of "Staf of Budda" and a Shao-Lin Monk wealding it the other day. If you are going for other deitys just think along the lines of the Shinto Kami ... how many are there? 5 million?

If you want to play a Knight of the Cross kind of PC but want to keep the Dreden-Lore intact it should be easy to find a deity to work with.

A Buddhist Shao-lin Monk who is in everyway like the Knight of the Cross.. except you know.  As a Shao-Lin Monk following Buddhism.
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: Papa Gruff on April 22, 2010, 03:40:16 PM
A Buddhist Shao-lin Monk who is in everyway like the Knight of the Cross.. except you know.  As a Shao-Lin Monk following Buddhism.


What do I know of it? ... It wasn't my idea!  :P
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: Valarian on April 22, 2010, 06:58:26 PM
The "Sword of Allah" has the advantage of being a title actually used in history. It's a title that was supposed to have been given to one of the Companions by Muhammad himself (I don't know whether there was an actual sword involved though).
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: Isenhertz on April 23, 2010, 10:44:06 AM
Maybe Zulfiqar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zulfiqar) is still up and about? That would fill the "Sword of Islam" slot pretty nicely. ;)

For Shinto, there's no way around the Ama-no-Murakumo-no-Tsurugi/Kusanagi-no-Tsurugi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kusanagi), the sword of Susano-o himself. Possibly the Seven-Branched Sword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven-Branched_Sword)?
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: Papa Gruff on April 23, 2010, 11:07:27 AM
Hey thank you Isenhertz (and welcome to the forums)! Even more potential Items of Power!

Man ... there must be a buttload of demonic evil in the world to merit all this powerfull holy weaponry...  ;D

Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: exploding_brain on April 23, 2010, 02:47:48 PM
I've always felt that champions of Buddhism/Eastern Martial Artists should have a slightly different set of powers, based around a high Discipline score, rather than a high Conviction score.  Just a feeling about the flavor of that sort of archetype, and the portrayal of that tradition in fiction.  YMMV.
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: TheMouse on April 23, 2010, 06:29:44 PM
This is why one of the character ideas i had in order to play a knight of the cross without breaking cannon was having the Spear of Longinus reforged as a roman gladius with a red blade.

The word you're looking for is, "Canon." I'm only being a pedant because...

Some lunatic could totally have used the metal from the spear of Longinus to forge a cannon with which to fight the forces of darkness. Think they're frightened of glowing holy swords? Imagine how frightened they'd be of a glowing holy cannon used to fire blessed grapeshot made of iron, silver, salt, and other such baneful substances.

Knight of the Cannon? I like that because of the pun.
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: luminos on April 23, 2010, 07:36:17 PM
I've always felt that champions of Buddhism/Eastern Martial Artists should have a slightly different set of powers, based around a high Discipline score, rather than a high Conviction score.  Just a feeling about the flavor of that sort of archetype, and the portrayal of that tradition in fiction.  YMMV.

Give them powers based on a feeding dependency of chi/ki, that way their discipline determines how much of their powers they can safely use.
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: exploding_brain on April 23, 2010, 07:56:37 PM
What would they need to feed on to recover their chi/ki?
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: luminos on April 23, 2010, 08:27:32 PM
What would they need to feed on to recover their chi/ki?

"Feeding" would be meditation or something. 
Title: Re: Swords Nitpick
Post by: blues.soldier on April 25, 2010, 03:36:57 AM
On a similarly related note... if you want to play a Knight of the Cross/Sword and keep the canon intact, it would be simple to have a blade forged with a piece of the True Cross in the handle. That, in my GMs brain, would be more than enough "oomph" to power a Sword of the Cross. In that manner, you could build a PC as a Knight of the Cross and not mess with the canon. After all, there are THIRTY Nickelheads. Makes sense that the Powers of Good would even the odds a little.