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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: rodnunley on April 20, 2010, 04:19:10 PM

Title: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: rodnunley on April 20, 2010, 04:19:10 PM
I have read the first five books of the series (just started reading book 6 this week) and have a game coming up.  While thinking about what type of character that I wanted to make I began playing around with the idea of something involving an angel.

But having not read all of the books yet I was wondering if angels have come up yet in the series.

So ... have there been any angels in the Dresden books that I don't know about yet?  How were they handled? 
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: svb1972 on April 20, 2010, 04:40:22 PM
We have seen an Archangel
We've seen a ward put up by another Archangel
And we've heard about a Guardian Angel.

But thats' it.

Oh and several very vavavoom Fallen Angels.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: Korwin on April 20, 2010, 04:41:31 PM
There's an Archangel, but do you really want to be spoiled?

And what do you mean handled? The question is a little... vague.

Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: rodnunley on April 20, 2010, 05:15:00 PM
We have seen an Archangel
We've seen a ward put up by another Archangel
And we've heard about a Guardian Angel.

But thats' it.

Oh and several very vavavoom Fallen Angels.


Yeah ... no spoilers to anything major please.  I was thinking about a guardian angel.  What was the deal with them?  Was it an actual angel or a human with magic or religious powers (like The Knight of the Cross)?
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: Saedar on April 20, 2010, 05:25:32 PM
I believe it was an actual angel. But, as far as this world goes, the Hosts don't really get too directly involved. Free will and all that.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: Sebastian on April 20, 2010, 06:07:54 PM
It's only 7 more books. Take a week off from work and you can catch up on your own :)
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: Valarian on April 20, 2010, 06:47:25 PM
We've seen one archangel, and I believe there's a reference to another in the books.

Traditionally, there are seven archangels (Book of Enoch and Book of Esdras). The names vary from tradition to tradition, though the first four of pretty consistent. Ones I can remember are Michael (warrior, guardian of the south and element of fire), Gabriel (messenger, guardian of the west and element of water), Raphael (healer, guardian of the east and element of air), Uriel (watcher, guardian of the north and element of earth), Remiel, Salathiel, Azrael (Angel of Death)

Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: KnightFerrous on April 20, 2010, 06:51:33 PM
Here is another approach, tell us what you want to play. Detail him story wise as much as you can and we can help you, tell you different ideas to get what you want.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: svb1972 on April 20, 2010, 06:54:58 PM
All we know about the Guardian Angel, was that he/she/it existed.  That's all there is in the book.
Pretty sure that's not really a spoiler.

Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: rodnunley on April 20, 2010, 06:59:49 PM
Here is another approach, tell us what you want to play. Detail him story wise as much as you can and we can help you, tell you different ideas to get what you want.

Fair enough.  :)

I have a couple of ideas and was hoping to glean some incite from how they've been shown in the books before settling on one specific idea.

I was thinking of playing a guardian angel.  

After thinking about it for a while I thought that it might be more fun to play a human who was assigned Guardian status by an angel.  My thought was that Guardian Angels are not always angels but human representitives who are given abilities and items of power to act as Guardians on earth for the Heavens.

Another thought was that my character would not technically be a guardian angel but carried an item that was imbued with the soul of an angel (or a protective spirit (ala Bob) that would supply the powers and abilities for my human host character.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: rodnunley on April 20, 2010, 07:45:43 PM
All we know about the Guardian Angel, was that he/she/it existed.  That's all there is in the book.
Pretty sure that's not really a spoiler.

Which books was that in?  I may skip ahead to read it.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: Saedar on April 20, 2010, 07:52:35 PM
1.) You don't want to skip ahead, trust me.

2.) For the guardian idea, I could see using a Champion of God and then have the High Concept be something like "Divine Guardian" and then have a trouble concept of "I protect X." Then tailor the powers and other aspects to fit with that idea.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: KnightFerrous on April 20, 2010, 07:54:51 PM
Fair enough.  :)

I have a couple of ideas and was hoping to glean some incite from how they've been shown in the books before settling on one specific idea.

I was thinking of playing a guardian angel.  

After thinking about it for a while I thought that it might be more fun to play a human who was assigned Guardian status by an angel.  My thought was that Guardian Angels are not always angels but human representitives who are given abilities and items of power to act as Guardians on earth for the Heavens.

Another thought was that my character would not technically be a guardian angel but carried an item that was imbued with the soul of an angel (or a protective spirit (ala Bob) that would supply the powers and abilities for my human host character.

That is frankly just the basic Champion of God template. protecting people and showing up at the right time to save them screams Guide my Hand, If you want an Item of Power say a breastplate that gives you Supernatural Toughness with the Catch of Innocence. so if the bad guys convince the innocent to attack you, you are vulnerable, or if their weapons are coated wiht the blood of the innocent and you have already failed in your duty your armor doesn't work. all in all a -6 refresh character before mortal stunts, not to shabby.

Edit: Saedar beat me too it, great minds think alike i guess.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: Mal_Luck on April 20, 2010, 08:01:27 PM
Which books was that in?  I may skip ahead to read it.
If it's what I think it is, I think it was in Proven Guilty... but it was more of a passing comment.

Unless there was another incident that I'm overlooking?
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: svb1972 on April 20, 2010, 08:02:43 PM
If it's what I think it is, I think it was in Proven Guilty... but it was more of a passing comment.

Unless there was another incident that I'm overlooking?
No that's the one.
You REALLY don't want to skip over especially since it's a 1 line throw away comment.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: Saedar on April 20, 2010, 08:05:05 PM
There is another one, I'm pretty sure. Just read the books. Suffice, there is a guardian angel (maybe) that has never made an appearance and is purely a plot device. We know nothing about it, otherwise.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: luminos on April 20, 2010, 08:07:17 PM
Angels, fallen or otherwise aren't allowed to directly act in human affairs except in special cases
(click to show/hide)
.  They can provide some behind the scenes assistance to certain people, like champions of God.  The suggestion that everyone else is giving about playing a champion of God is spot on.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: Mal_Luck on April 20, 2010, 08:59:35 PM
You could also consider playing a Scion of a celestial being and maybe combine that with True Believer or Champion of God.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: Rel Fexive on April 20, 2010, 09:11:22 PM
I have an idea for an angelic scion who uses the Changeling model; the more he accepts from his heritage to fight the good fight the less human he becomes until BLAM, ascension to angel-hood and off to work on The Big Picture for The Big Guy.

Maybe some of these half-angel types work to influence people to live good lives, a bit like in the movie version of Constantine.   Which means there's other types working on the nasty side of people...
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: Deadmanwalking on April 20, 2010, 09:35:25 PM
Half-angels are part of Hebrew lore. Look up Nephilim, though God has in theory forbidden their creation, and, as portrayed, I very much doubt they'd ever ascend to true angel-hood. Still, as a Scion concept, it's pretty darn neat.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: rodnunley on April 20, 2010, 09:46:00 PM
Thanks for all the help guys.  Good tips all around.  I guess I need to ease up on reading the books so I can finish reading the RPG book before attempting to make a character.  :)
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: Mal_Luck on April 20, 2010, 09:48:46 PM
Half-angels are part of Hebrew lore. Look up Nephilim, though God has in theory forbidden their creation, and, as portrayed, I very much doubt they'd ever ascend to true angel-hood. Still, as a Scion concept, it's pretty darn neat.
Adds another character to the list of possible future characters
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: KnightFerrous on April 20, 2010, 09:50:59 PM
Half-angels are part of Hebrew lore. Look up Nephilim, though God has in theory forbidden their creation, and, as portrayed, I very much doubt they'd ever ascend to true angel-hood. Still, as a Scion concept, it's pretty darn neat.

This is all making me think of Dogma. Loki and Bartleby as Scions, gaining more an more angelic abilities and features as they movie continues. Then in the end they Choose mortal.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: Rel Fexive on April 20, 2010, 10:41:17 PM
That's a good comparison.  And the Nephilim (with fields or otherwise) are definitely the sort of direction to move in too.

Yeah, they might never achieve full Choir status, but even Heaven needs talented footsoldiers, right?
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: JosephKell on April 21, 2010, 12:46:23 AM
I think angelic scions would be very rare.  Angels marrying (or even just mating with) humans may tread on free will.  Yeah, a person has the choice (presumably) to reject the advances of an angel, but can we expect angels to be anything less than perfect?

The morally gray (and black) guys don't care about free will or choice (except when it benefits them, see the two Mortal Knights of Faerie) which makes their scions much more common (with Changelings the most common due to the proximity of Faerie).  If demons could leave the Nevernever as easily as fae (my assumption is that demons have to be summoned) there would probably be a lot of demon issue in the world.

Heaven has little need of its own foot soldiers.  Angels seem to be sent to recruit whoever they deem fit to serve.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: svb1972 on April 21, 2010, 12:52:28 AM
angles having children with mortals is the traditional way for them to Fall from grace.  Their offspring are called Nephlim and are the primary reason God did the flood.

Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: Mal_Luck on April 21, 2010, 01:03:14 AM
I think angelic scions would be very rare.  Angels marrying (or even just mating with) humans may tread on free will.  Yeah, a person has the choice (presumably) to reject the advances of an angel, but can we expect angels to be anything less than perfect?
Heh, the human mom/dad could have the aspect Touched by an Angel :D

And a scion of an angel, the Nephilim, I think would be one of the few and far between examples of a child born out of love, out at least consensual sex,  rather than force in the case of most Changelings or demonic scions.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: Kelvor on April 21, 2010, 04:15:17 AM
Remember, being a descendent of an angel doesn't necessarily make you a good person. ;)

Funny to see the Nephilim pop up in a Dresden RPG context again. One of the big bads of my last Dresdenverse game was an angelic descendant trying to locate a Blackened Denariius. I found it fun to have a group of mercenaries led by this individual who called themselves the Nephilim, and whose insignia was a sword with wings. I intended that to be a clue that this dude might be more than ordinary, as a subtle clue of slightly obscure biblical lore, but I don't think any of my players figured it out.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: Rel Fexive on April 21, 2010, 07:35:44 PM
Heh, the human mom/dad could have the aspect Touched by an Angel :D

And a scion of an angel, the Nephilim, I think would be one of the few and far between examples of a child born out of love, out at least consensual sex,  rather than force in the case of most Changelings or demonic scions.

While I can see it with demonic scions I can't with Changelings, at least not every time.  Sure, trolls and ogres, but people could be easily swayed by a particularly lovely sidhe into a night of passion, especially if they didn't know the true nature of their lover.  With the right glamour it would work for uglier Fae as well.  Even the ugliest troll might be looking for a little love in the mortal realm!
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: The Codex on April 22, 2010, 10:26:28 AM
I really like the idea of a Nephilim, if you where to give him inhuman toughness what sort of Catch do you give the son child, decendant of an angel.....
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: DragonDM on April 22, 2010, 02:39:23 PM
While I can see it with demonic scions I can't with Changelings, at least not every time.  Sure, trolls and ogres, but people could be easily swayed by a particularly lovely sidhe into a night of passion, especially if they didn't know the true nature of their lover.  With the right glamour it would work for uglier Fae as well.  Even the ugliest troll might be looking for a little love in the mortal realm!

Remember that the Immortal Beings (Angels, Fallen, Fey, and Demons) are all 'locked in' their ways
- in other words, they can't do anything outside their Purpose, or against their Nature.
A demon that does nothing but eat people is not inclined to mate with a Human, unless forced to do so by another Human.
And it's going to hate all of them: Master, Mate, and Offspring - and want to eat them all, and at the first possible moment.

The problem with most of the 'Immortal Beings' (Fey, Demons, etc) is that they don't really understand Love.
Lust, yes. Power (as in 'a controllable agent in the mortal Realm'), yes. Legacy (powerful descendants), yes.
Running a Deception upon a mortal, for the mere fun of it? Yes, especially the Sidhe: The longer lasting the Joke, the better.

Scions of Fey and Demons are scary to both sides of their Heritage, simply because they have great power and are unpredictable due to their Human Free Will.

Angels are pure Love, just as they are pure Spirit/Soul.
Scions of Angels were created by and for Love, but caused the Angel to Fall.

Fallen are exiled Angels, but still remember pure Love, but may no longer seek to help it flourish.
Remember that only the Denarians (30 silver Denari coins) are able to directly influence Humans, by tempting those that take up their coins - if the Human gives too much Will/Choice away, and they can dominate you. I'd think that even these trying to mate with Humans would still rarely produce Scions. Mostly because they have to figure out how to bypass their Mortal Host's 'limits'.

Scions of Fallen are every bit as scary as Fey/Demon Scions, and for the same reasons.
All the Nephilim are akin to hated half-breeds: they get flack from all sides, simply because they were born.
And the Heavenly Hosts don't respond to Nephilim any more they they do with any other Mortal Human, which means that you end up with a lot of them with the "Angstified Teenager" syndrome.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: svb1972 on April 22, 2010, 02:49:04 PM
Nephilim are one of the most tragic parts of the Torah.
Beings of Love fell in love with mortal women.  They beget upon them children which caused the angels to Fall.  (And Angels still Fall to this day).  Nephilim were so hated by God that he sent the Flood to destroy them.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: Mal_Luck on April 22, 2010, 03:03:24 PM
While I can see it with demonic scions I can't with Changelings, at least not every time.  Sure, trolls and ogres, but people could be easily swayed by a particularly lovely sidhe into a night of passion, especially if they didn't know the true nature of their lover.  With the right glamour it would work for uglier Fae as well.  Even the ugliest troll might be looking for a little love in the mortal realm!
Hence the word "most"  :P

I'm really wanting to play a Nephilim now, I think it'd be a very interesting character depending on how they were raised.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: KnightFerrous on April 22, 2010, 05:11:35 PM
I really like the idea of a Nephilim, if you where to give him inhuman toughness what sort of Catch do you give the son child, decendant of an angel.....

"Unholy Stuff".... ALSO a technical term.
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: Saedar on April 22, 2010, 05:13:27 PM
Keep in mind that on YW58, in the discussion on gods in the Dresdenverse, it says:

Quote
It is said that most gods are the first generation scions of angels, demons, or powerful beings of the Nevernever. Some of them are
derelict angels—not cast out of Heaven, but just departed on their own.

This suggests that angel scions are definitely possible, but more than that, that angels possess the free will to CHOOSE to leave Heaven. You could think of characters like Hercules as a scion of angel-god Zeus. Or something like that.  :)
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: Rel Fexive on April 22, 2010, 06:11:36 PM
"Unholy Stuff".... ALSO a technical term.

Of course, if they don't come up against "Unholy Stuff" very often then they won't get much of a discount.  So the question is, what IS the discount for "Unholy Stuff"?
Title: Re: Angels in the Dresden Universe
Post by: DragonDM on April 22, 2010, 08:11:38 PM
Nephilim are one of the most tragic parts of the Torah.
Beings of Love fell in love with mortal women.  They beget upon them children which caused the angels to Fall.  (And Angels still Fall to this day).  Nephilim were so hated by God that he sent the Flood to destroy them.

Actually, there are two parts to the Flood:
(1) Mankind was falling deeply into Sin, to the point that God could only find Noah and his immediate Family as acceptable. It was to git rid of this that he decided that something needed to be done.

(2) There were a LOT of Nephilim and other Scions running around, and starting to become a real problem to The Plan.
From what I understand, a lot of the stories of Giants and the Old Gods (Perhaps even the Elder Gods) came from.

And so GOD sent The Flood, which wiped them out (or at least their mortal forms), and God then barred all the Scions from the Moral Plan from then on.

As for the Now - Jesus's sacrifice means that a lot of those GOD SMITING days are over, and Scions are treated as being Mortal.
I also think that because of the Limitation, Scions receive a lot less power.