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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Tush Hog on April 18, 2010, 12:10:28 AM

Title: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Tush Hog on April 18, 2010, 12:10:28 AM
I wanted to ask a few questions to make sure I've got a handle on spells. Sorry if any of this seems to obvious or somethin'  ;D

First, concerning rote spells. If Harry were to cast his Fuego rote he does not have to roll to control the power but still rolls his Discipline (+3) with a +1 from his rod for a attack roll. Doesn't matter if roll isn't good enough to control because that has already been established. This roll is opposed by the target. If Harry got a +6 and the target got a +2, Harry's Fuego rote could do 8 shifts and it would cost him 1 box on the mental stress chart. Is this correct?

Next, the intentional hexing chart wasn't completely clear to me. It mentions the Power out beside certain levels of technology. Would you make a Discipline roll to control the power? If it is at your Conviction level or below, it doesn't cost but I assume if you reach above that costs are normal?

 

Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Deadmanwalking on April 18, 2010, 12:18:56 AM
First, concerning rote spells. If Harry were to cast his Fuego rote he does not have to roll to control the power but still rolls his Discipline (+3) with a +1 from his rod for a attack roll. Doesn't matter if roll isn't good enough to control because that has already been established. This roll is opposed by the target. If Harry got a +6 and the target got a +2, Harry's Fuego rote could do 8 shifts and it would cost him 1 box on the mental stress chart. Is this correct?

That is, indeed, correct.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Deadmanwalking on April 18, 2010, 12:35:01 AM
Control is established already due to it being Rote (this is the advantage of Rotes).  He still has to try to hit the target.  Damage (shifts) is dependant on the amount of power you use, so that would come from his conviction and any applicable foci rather than how good his "to hit" roll was.  Shifts are the number of steps higher on the ladder you are in comparison to the opposing roll (or difficulty).  A +6 shift on the "to hit" roll does give you options for how fancy your hit was (split it up over multiple opponents, a more accurate shot, etec).  Mental stress would be 1 for the using the Rote and +1 for any additional levels of conviction that he would want to commit to it.

Um, no. The damage of an attack is always based on how well you hit + Weapon rating. The power put into the spell determines Weapon rating, not full damage in and of itself, so if he hits by 4 shifts...he will indeed do Weapon Rating + 4 damage (since he hit them in a vulnerable area, or something like that). Splitting the attack is also impossible with a Rote, they are set in what they do, a multiple target spell would be a separate Rote. And Rotes are always the same amount of power and thus stress.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: SoulCatcher78 on April 18, 2010, 12:35:15 AM
First, concerning rote spells. If Harry were to cast his Fuego rote he does not have to roll to control the power but still rolls his Discipline (+3) with a +1 from his rod for a attack roll. Doesn't matter if roll isn't good enough to control because that has already been established. This roll is opposed by the target. If Harry got a +6 and the target got a +2, Harry's Fuego rote could do 8 shifts and it would cost him 1 box on the mental stress chart. Is this correct?

Yes, I was thinking it was different but DMW is right.  Check pg YS251 for the example.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: SoulCatcher78 on April 18, 2010, 12:40:30 AM
Um, no. The damage of an attack is always based on how well you hit + Weapon rating. The power put into the spell determines Weapon rating, not full damage in and of itself, so if he hits by 4 shifts...he will indeed do Weapon Rating + 4 damage (since he hit them in a vulnerable area, or something like that). Splitting the attack is also impossible with a Rote, they are set in what they do, a multiple target spell would be a separate Rote. And Rotes are always the same amount of power and thus stress.

I caught that error after reading your post. 

Conviction equals the amount of power and can raise the amount of stress.  The YS251 example talks about Fuego at conviction +8 which is 2 higher than his conviction bringing the total amount of stress to 3.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Deadmanwalking on April 18, 2010, 12:47:32 AM
I caught that error after reading your post. 

Conviction equals the amount of power and can raise the amount of stress.  The YS251 example talks about Fuego at conviction +8 which is 2 higher than his conviction bringing the total amount of stress to 3.

Right. Absolutely correct, but it's not a Rote any more if you do that. You'll note he needed to roll to control it, not just to hit and it's never referred to as a Rote spell. My point isn't that magic can't vary in it's cost, just that Rotes specifically can't.

The fact that Harry shouts Fuego! whether he's using a Rote or not makes this a bit mre confusing than it could be, but it's still the way things work.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: SoulCatcher78 on April 18, 2010, 01:20:29 AM
Yup, that seems to have been where I got it mixed up.   All Fuegos are not created equal apparently  ;D
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Tush Hog on April 20, 2010, 08:37:46 PM
Thanks for the help folks!

I'm trying to get this down. Let's say I want to use a force attack to drop a car on a bad guy  ;D. How would that work? Would my Power that I grab need to equal the difficulty shown on the Might chart, then I make a Discipline roll to hit? What about the damage? Could this damage be counted as real world damage and satisfy the Catch for things that are immune to magic?
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: luminos on April 20, 2010, 09:23:51 PM
Thanks for the help folks!

I'm trying to get this down. Let's say I want to use a force attack to drop a car on a bad guy  ;D. How would that work? Would my Power that I gab need to equal the difficulty shown on the Might chart, then I make a Discipline roll to hit? What about the damage? Could this damage be counted as real world damage and satisfy the Catch for things that are immune to magic?

That's kind of clever.  I'd let it satisfy the catch for things immune to magic, but I'd probably have that reflected by the fact that the damage done would be calculated differently than it would be for a direct damage spell.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Deadmanwalking on April 20, 2010, 09:27:53 PM
Thanks for the help folks!

I'm trying to get this down. Let's say I want to use a force attack to drop a car on a bad guy  ;D. How would that work? Would my Power that I gab need to equal the difficulty shown on the Might chart, then I make a Discipline roll to hit? What about the damage? Could this damage be counted as real world damage and satisfy the Catch for things that are immune to magic?

Honestly, and fgoing by the Tree Attack spell in the sample spells section, I'd say you use a Fate Point to tag the otherwise useless "There's A Car" scene Aspect on the casting, and otherwise treat it as a normal spell.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: BlackDog42 on July 20, 2010, 09:18:47 PM
i noticed when playing at origins that spellcasting is quite damaging to a caster while in the dresdenverse casters can cast, to a degree, with out taking stress. has anyone thought of a way to make it a bit more even?

i was thinking about another power (homebrew) that lets you cast 2-3 (minimal damage) spells during an 'encounter' without taking stress hits. anyone have any suggestions or experience with this?
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 20, 2010, 09:23:02 PM
First, I'm not sure I agree. Wardens use swords, guns, and even grenades. Would they really bther to learn the needed skills and do that so much if you could spellcast all day?

Still, there are a few House Rule ideas for that, my personal favorite is that you can cast spells at a number of shifts of Power equal to your Evocation Power Specialty in the element you're using without taking Mental Stress. This'll max out at one or two Shifts for starting PCs, but it should keep things from getting out of hand, which is important, since spellcasting is SCARY.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: luminos on July 20, 2010, 09:58:38 PM
One thing that may be giving you trouble is that you seem to be thinking of stress in slightly the wrong way.  Stress =/= damage.  Stress represents near misses, and in spellcasting terms, its a form of measuring very small amounts of fatigue.  We see in the books that when Harry does a lot of spellcasting, at least enough to go past his stress limit, he does in fact start experiencing a lot of mental weariness, and spellcasting does get costly.  I think the stress for casting is an accurate representation of what happens in the book, and its damn necessary for game balance.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: BlackDog42 on July 20, 2010, 10:04:58 PM
@luminos i do understand that stress =/= damage, but it can..in one game i played i saw our magick user go down because he casted 3 spells (granted, one of them he powered up). my concern comes more as: 1 spell stress 1 = 1 stress 2 spells at stress 1 = 3 stress, etc.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Baron Hazard on July 20, 2010, 10:33:32 PM
re-reading the books right now, I'm doing so with the RPG in mind. I also plan to go in and use excerpts from the books as rules as examples for my group to really reiterate it.

and really it fits pretty well. Harry rarely evocates more than 3-4 times in a fight so that combined with his enchanted items seems pretty fitting.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Stormraven on July 20, 2010, 11:20:44 PM
@luminos i do understand that stress =/= damage, but it can..in one game i played i saw our magick user go down because he casted 3 spells (granted, one of them he powered up). my concern comes more as: 1 spell stress 1 = 1 stress 2 spells at stress 1 = 3 stress, etc.

Okay, I'm new here, but I had to stick my two cents in.  Where do you get 2 spells at stress 1 = 3 stress?  As I understand the stress track, your first spell at stress 1 would fill your first stress box, if it weren't already.  Your second, since your first is filled, would roll up to your stress 2 box - not your stress 3 box.

You would only roll up to your stress 3 box if your stress 2 box was already filled.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 20, 2010, 11:23:48 PM
Stormraven: You are entirely correct.

However, I think what BlackDog42 was aiming at was that filling up your first two Stress boxes is the same result as taking a 1 Stress Hit and then a 2 Stress hit. I don't really agree that that's a problem per se, but I think that's what he was saying.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Stormraven on July 20, 2010, 11:28:59 PM
I kind of get that, but it's exactly the same situation as taking a 1 stress hit, then another 1 stress hit.  And wrt his example, I'd like to see what spells he cast if he went down just to spell-casting.  Either he did spells so powerful that he maxed out both stress and consequence boxes, or he just decided to get taken out when his stress boxes filled.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Fedifensor on July 21, 2010, 12:14:45 AM
and really it fits pretty well. Harry rarely evocates more than 3-4 times in a fight so that combined with his enchanted items seems pretty fitting
Actually, there are several fights in the books where Harry casts more than 3-4 times.  Some handwave it by saying the spells you cast are just the ones that matter, and there are other spells thrown that are just flavor.

I'd like to see a few more spells thrown, so the house rule I'm looking at is that you can drop the result of the Discipline roll by three to negate the initial point of stress.  This allows a very skilled caster to cast less powerful spells without stress.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Baron Hazard on July 21, 2010, 12:31:44 AM
several... several... so your talking several in 12 books? that would be rarely. Which is what I said. and most of the time that can be handled using the consequence system. that being said, the evocation spin rule tends to be the one most preferred. However be careful with your version of the spin rule.

Discipline 5, Conviction 5 (pretty common for a submerged Magic User... and that's just Starting level) +1 to Fire Control. Focus Items: Offensive Fire Control bonus of +2 and Offensive Fire Power bonus of +1. Total control 8, total power 6.

weapon:6 Evocation effect cost 1 mental stress. it also only requires that the person roll a +1 in order to control that scary-ass fuego for free.

if you intend to use a spin rule, i'd suggest DMW's suggestion and limit it to the evocator power or control bonus.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 21, 2010, 02:16:49 AM
Actually, there are several fights in the books where Harry casts more than 3-4 times.  Some handwave it by saying the spells you cast are just the ones that matter, and there are other spells thrown that are just flavor.

So...how many of those don't involve Sponsored Magic. Because Sponsored Magic explicitly offers a way around the limit (gaining Sponsor Debt)...and is pretty much involved in every big fight from Dead Beat onward.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Tush Hog on July 21, 2010, 08:14:48 PM
Another question: if one of your rote spells is a block, maneuver or counter spell is there a reason to make a roll?

I suppose if you can make the maneuver sticky with your attack roll? Not sure if that is how it works though.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: CMEast on July 21, 2010, 09:09:49 PM
The roll is for both targeting and control. If you're guaranteed to control the spell and it doesn't have a target then there is no need to roll. If you try to target an opponent in any way then you have to roll on discipline to target.

For spells that target an area and affect your opponents... I guess it's your choice. That's how I'd rule it anyway. For instance zone wide hailstones (either as an attack or a manoeuvre) could just be the strength of the rote, or if you rolled that would just be you trying to aim the hailstones at specific targets. There is a chance that you roll higher or a chance that you roll lower.

As to rote manoeuvres, I'd ay that you need to include an extra shift to the spell if you plan for it to be a sticky aspect.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Fedifensor on July 22, 2010, 03:48:38 AM
So...how many of those don't involve Sponsored Magic. Because Sponsored Magic explicitly offers a way around the limit (gaining Sponsor Debt)...and is pretty much involved in every big fight from Dead Beat onward.
So, let's start with Summer Knight (it's fresh in my mind), with the big battle in the sky.  I'm using the paperback, in case it matters for page references.  Starting in Chapter 31, and extending into Chapter 32:
* Pg 342 - Curtain of blazing scarlet energy (to stop bees)
* Pg 342 - Lance of crimson-white energy (used against a giant bee)
* Pg 345 - Smiting the ground to emit a rumbling thunder (to frighten the faerie mounts)
* Pg 346 - Horizontal shield (against charging horses)
* Pg 348 - Bolt of lightning (against Lloyd Slate)
* Pg 349 - Lash of fire (at Talos)
At least three of those spells (shield versus the bees, shield against the horses, and the bolt of lightning) were pushed beyond Harry's normal limits.  The shields covered large areas, and the bolt of lightning dropped Slate and threw everyone else to the ground...well, except Talos.

A better example is Dead Beat.  Both Luccio and Morgan unleash a pair of spells in the first few seconds that Harry sees them, and the combat continues with the following - "More of them materialized out of the rain and the night, but Luccio and the Wardens kept moving steadily forward, burning and crushing and slicing and dicing their way across the street, furiously determined to get the children clear."

I find it very, very hard to believe that Luccio and Morgan only cast a total of four spells each in that scene, when they were halfway to that limit in the first few seconds that Harry sees them (and they were fighting well before Harry arrived).  Harry also uses several spells in that fight, and doesn't call on his sponsored magic (Hellfire) until the final confrontation with Cowl (pg 382).

Those are the two books I have at hand.  Need more examples?
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Stormraven on July 22, 2010, 04:03:12 AM
My take on those?  First, you're not seeing Harry Dresden: The starting character, and you're certainly not seeing Morgan or Lucca as starting characters.  I'd expect that even by Summer Knight, Harry's Conviction is high enough to give him two additional minor consequences, and I wouldn't be surprised to see both Morgan and Lucca at 3 or even four.

Add in that their Conviction scores - not including any focus items - are going to be likely +6, I can imagine them tossing spells around.  And maybe, most of those spells were area spells that just looked like three or four spells at a time?
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Morgan on July 22, 2010, 04:37:35 AM
Well all of the Wizards you are giving examples for have high Convictions giving them extra Consequences to call on, so perhaps they were taking a few of them to offset the cost of their spells.

Also you might consider what constitutes a scene. One of the neat things that I love about FATE is that Stress isn't a hit point or damage mechanic, it's actually a pacing mechanic. When Harry or any other character in the books fight against impossible odds and after they have taken out a bunch of guys, are all out of juice and still surrounded by enemies, it's time for a new scene even though it is the same battle. Harry gets a second wind, he digs deep and even though he's hurt, broken, and bleeding he pours on the magic and the bad guys start burning. Thinking of Stress and the times to get rid of those checked boxes as chapter, act, or commercial breaks, or even that dramatic second wind before the shit goes down instead of traditional scenes can really make the Dresden Files game sing.

Lets take your Summer Knight examples, I don't have the book with me and it's been a few years since I read it so sorry if this isn't how it goes but I'll use my version of the action of the spells you described to give my example. So those first four spells sound like they were in one scene and then the next two were in a brand new scene of the battle where Harry gets to drop all the stress he took and start fresh, though maybe with a consequence or two because of the previous scene's spells power levels.

Those first four spells dealt with minions and they were maneuvers, blocks, and attacks. They were cool, they were powerful, and they show that Harry isn't a chump and can walk all over a bunch of dangerous things from the Summer Court. Which is great, but then the chapter probably ended and he then had to deal with the heavy hitters of Summer, Talos, Slate, etc. so it is a brand new scene, and he erases all that stress he just took powering his magic spells that got him to the heavies.

Now Harry confronts Slate and Talos, he whips out the major mojo and takes a bunch of Stress and probably some new consequences to do it, he puts down Slate and the rest probably with a block and then smites Talos with fire since he was the only one powerful enough to break through it. Now he's spent and facing off against the Summer Lady and he is all out of Stress and Bubblegum.
(click to show/hide)
Or at least that's how I see it playing out.

Also keep in mind Fate Points to make powerful spells even more powerful, Harry had been beat up all through Summer Knight and as usual he had also taken a bunch of compels leaving him with a lot of Fate Points for that climactic battle. Since Evocation attacks use the targeting roll to hit and any extra shifts translate to damage, well with a lot of Fate Points you can invoke a lot of aspects and those +2 bonuses start to add up quick when it comes to damage, even if the actual Evocation Attack is only a low Weapon damage.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 22, 2010, 05:02:22 AM
So...6 spells. When he has two Mild Consequences to pay for that sort of thing? That's...not a very compelling argument. And effecting a Zone is only 2 Shifts. Maybe he went two and three shifts above normal and got himself 3 and 4 stress hits. As long as he had the FP to make the Control rolls this should work fine.

All this leaves aside the brief tete a tete in the middle there, which can easily be seen as a break for social combat (which Harry loses, BTW), which would Refresh his Stress entirely. That would be right between the first three and the last three.  :)

As for Dead Beat...I got the impression they were using a relatively small number of Zone effecting spells, killing one full Zone of zombies at a time. That can be described a variety of ways. Also, cutting was involved, which wouldn't make any sense at all if you can keep blasting all day long.

And again, breaks, even brief ones, allow full Stress recovery.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: GruffAndTumble on July 22, 2010, 05:34:48 AM
So, Harry gets into fights that involve more than four spells almost once a year? What exactly is the problem with assuming he blows consequences for such clearly exceptional and rare situations?
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Walker_Blade on July 22, 2010, 07:36:20 PM
This was my bigest problem with the RPG system too, when I first read it, so I've developed a few ways around it, some more house rule-sy than others.

1)  Take the breath weapon power and replace the weapons roll with a discipline roll, and you have a combat spell that you can use at will for weapon 2 attacks.

2) Sponsored Magic.  Pretty handy.

3) Use Enchanted items.  A dedicated enchanter with a good crafting foci can get pretty big effects with a good number of uses each session with no stress at all.

and 4)  the house rule I've been using is that if the power is half your conviction or less then it doesn't cost a stress, so somebody with conviction 4 could throw around 2 shift evocations with no problem.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Fedifensor on July 22, 2010, 10:53:10 PM
Addressing each response in turn:

My take on those?  First, you're not seeing Harry Dresden: The starting character, and you're certainly not seeing Morgan or Lucca as starting characters.  I'd expect that even by Summer Knight, Harry's Conviction is high enough to give him two additional minor consequences, and I wouldn't be surprised to see both Morgan and Lucca at 3 or even four.

You have a far more generous view of Harry's advancement than I do.  I don't see the campaign raising the skill cap up to Fantastic (+6) that early in the series, particularly after reading "Harry's Power Ups" on OW 137.


Well all of the Wizards you are giving examples for have high Convictions giving them extra Consequences to call on, so perhaps they were taking a few of them to offset the cost of their spells.

Perhaps you can tell me what consequences Harry took in that scene...


Lets take your Summer Knight examples, I don't have the book with me and it's been a few years since I read it so sorry if this isn't how it goes but I'll use my version of the action of the spells you described to give my example. So those first four spells sound like they were in one scene and then the next two were in a brand new scene of the battle where Harry gets to drop all the stress he took and start fresh, though maybe with a consequence or two because of the previous scene's spells power levels.

(and)

All this leaves aside the brief tete a tete in the middle there, which can easily be seen as a break for social combat (which Harry loses, BTW), which would Refresh his Stress entirely. That would be right between the first three and the last three.

While recovering Stress is dependent on the GM, I'm pretty doubtful that 30 seconds of conversation qualifies as a full refresh.  If you go that route, the fight at Wal-Mart in Summer Knight can easily be separated into five different scenes, which seems excessive.  I think this is a case of people trying to fit the situations in the rules to the books, rather than the other way around. 


So, Harry gets into fights that involve more than four spells almost once a year? What exactly is the problem with assuming he blows consequences for such clearly exceptional and rare situations?

Because it is no different than any of our campaigns.  Harry has adventures, with downtime between adventures.  When you start adding in all the short stories, and the things Harry does behind the scenes that we don't see, he's about as active as the characters in many ongoing campaigns.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 22, 2010, 11:18:22 PM
You have a far more generous view of Harry's advancement than I do.  I don't see the campaign raising the skill cap up to Fantastic (+6) that early in the series, particularly after reading "Harry's Power Ups" on OW 137.

I actually agree with you on this one. He's not that much better as of Book 4.

Perhaps you can tell me what consequences Harry took in that scene...

Sure. How about "Tired" or even "Winded"? It's a legitimate Minor Consequence.

While recovering Stress is dependent on the GM, I'm pretty doubtful that 30 seconds of conversation qualifies as a full refresh.  If you go that route, the fight at Wal-Mart in Summer Knight can easily be separated into five different scenes, which seems excessive.  I think this is a case of people trying to fit the situations in the rules to the books, rather than the other way around. 


It's not about the time, it's about the narrative distinction. Those are two separate fights, one with random Summer warriors and the second directly with some of the main villains. The scene at Wal-Mart was all one fight because that's what it was narratively. You're thinking too mechanistically. Iago has actually mentioned previously that the duel and subsequent giant battle in White Night would be two separate fights, since they are narratively and thematically, even though there's little if any actual pause between the two.

Because it is no different than any of our campaigns.  Harry has adventures, with downtime between adventures.  When you start adding in all the short stories, and the things Harry does behind the scenes that we don't see, he's about as active as the characters in many ongoing campaigns.

I agree with you on this one, too. Just BTW.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Walker_Blade on July 23, 2010, 03:46:47 AM
for those who are thinking that the system can in fact cover the spellcasting in the books, take a look at Ramirez in the fight in White Night:

He explicitly does 8 significant spells, not counting anything covered in the bit about "Blast after hideously ruinous blast..."  which implies many attacks (although it could technically be statted out as either a split attack or a zone wide attack, so maybe it is mechanically only one big one).  So minimum of 9 spells in a scene.  For a young warden with no access to sponsored magic of any kind.  He is listed as having conviction 4, so 4 boxes fo mental stress, no extra consequences.  that means a maximum of 7 spells after consequences, maybe 8 if he somehow took an extreme consequence and we didn't notice.  but we still can't get to the mimimum of 9 needed to play out that scene. 

So yeah, The RPG system of a game based around a wizard can't handle the spellcasting in the books it is based off of.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Stormraven on July 23, 2010, 03:57:23 AM
Well, if it bothers you, I might suggest a variation on the Focus Items rules.  For the cost of 2 Focus slots, you get one Consequence you can  use for magic of a given type.  So, maybe instead of giving him a bonus to his Conviction or Discipline, Harry's Blasting Rod lets him cast two or three Fuego spells without stressing himself.

I would cap it at a maximum of two, maybe three, and definitely count them as Consequences as opposed to Stress, so they don't just regenerate between scenes.  Not a house rule I would expect to see in play, but off the top of my head, a possible answer to the question you've raised.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 24, 2010, 12:31:52 AM
for those who are thinking that the system can in fact cover the spellcasting in the books, take a look at Ramirez in the fight in White Night:

As mentioned above, that was two scenes (one for the Duel, a separate one for the big fight). That makes the math work out pretty damn perfectly.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Walker_Blade on July 24, 2010, 04:11:37 AM
Would that still be two scenes even though there was absolutely no rest time in between?  Heck, the duel hadn't even quite finished when the battle started.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: mostlyawake on July 24, 2010, 04:45:55 AM
Sure, it could be 2 scenes.  Remember that a "scene" is simply an arbitrary unit of time, similar to white wolf's scenes, and is meant to designate something like "from tv commercial to tv commercial".  Any heavy action show will almost always end up cutting in the middle of a battle, or right after a reveal (the monster got TALLER, oooooh), or wherever they are at that particular 8 minute mark.  One "scene" was the events preceding the battle up until right before the "end boss", who warranted his own segment. Even one duel can be 2 scenes... just where ever the action naturally breaks (as in, they both fall through the floor to the lower level).

The game really plays like this, too... stress boxes come back between scenes (we see our hero thrown through windows, into trees, ect), but the consequences (the ubiquitous eye-brow scratch, the twisted ankle) remain. Ever notice how the hero should be way, way more beat up than he really is, but instead he's just got 2-3 really noticeable ouchies and some dirt smears?

In their explanation of why the game took forever, evil hat specifically mentions that spellcasting took a lot of work and playtesting to get right. Until I am really, really confident in my spell-fu, I think I will just opt for more scenes instead of adding house rules.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Todjaeger on July 24, 2010, 04:49:47 AM
for those who are thinking that the system can in fact cover the spellcasting in the books, take a look at Ramirez in the fight in White Night:

He explicitly does 8 significant spells, not counting anything covered in the bit about "Blast after hideously ruinous blast..."  which implies many attacks (although it could technically be statted out as either a split attack or a zone wide attack, so maybe it is mechanically only one big one).  So minimum of 9 spells in a scene.  For a young warden with no access to sponsored magic of any kind.  He is listed as having conviction 4, so 4 boxes fo mental stress, no extra consequences.  that means a maximum of 7 spells after consequences, maybe 8 if he somehow took an extreme consequence and we didn't notice.  but we still can't get to the mimimum of 9 needed to play out that scene. 

So yeah, The RPG system of a game based around a wizard can't handle the spellcasting in the books it is based off of.

I made a point of re-reading the duel and fight scene again in White Night, by my could, Ramirez cast his entropic water shield, and released 7 green blasts.  Given that other people at the meeting were also casters (Malvorra for instance...) some of the other blasts, etc might not have come from him.  Now, assuming the information from Our World is correct (it is definately not complete) and that the Duel and then fight were all part of the same scene (thus no recovery time) and that each of the green blasts were distinct castings which inflicted 1 point of mental stress on Ramirez, assuming he took both a Minor and Moderate consequence, he would still be "short" 2 mental stress boxes.  

However, as I mentioned, the writeup for Ramirez in Our World is incomplete.  Only one Rote spell is listed, yet he can have a up to 3.  He is also listed as having taken a Refinement, presumably for more focus and/or enchanted item slots, but here too the writeup has him shorted.  Per the Spellcaster rules for Evocation and Thaumaturgy, each one provides 2 focus item slots (4 total).  The writeup has him using 4 focus item slots, 2 each on his staff and glove for +1 power and +1 control with water offensively and defensively respectively.  He then uses 2 enchanted item slots for his willow sword.  Given that he has already used up his allotment of focus item slots for his staff and glove, he would have needed to spend that point of Refinement on getting additional focus or enchanted item slots.  He should therefore have either 2 unused enchanted item slots or 1 unused focus item slot.  This leaves the possibility open that Ramirez might have an item like Harry's Force Ring, which might be set to fire the green blasts...

Or as others have suggested already, those green blasts which are mentioned as coming from Ramirez could be part of a larger or zone-wide combat casting and just the visual description provided by the book mentioned specific/discrete blasts.  Depending on how one wishes to take it, there is room both in terms of the fight description and how the rules work for 'los to have been able to do what he did.  There is also the distinct possibility that "Billy" low-balled Ramirez's power and capabilities.  The Our World writeup puts Ramirez's refresh at the same level Harry at in Storm Front.  Granted, Harry is "special" and also ~15 years older than Ramirez, I do not think Ramirez would have been made a Regional Commander of the Wardens if he was only a little bit more powerful than a starting Wizard of the White Council.

Something to consider at least.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Myrddhin on July 24, 2010, 05:00:40 AM
However, as I mentioned, the writeup for Ramirez in Our World is incomplete.  Only one Rote spell is listed, yet he can have a up to 3.  He is also listed as having taken a Refinement, presumably for more focus and/or enchanted item slots, but here too the writeup has him shorted.  Per the Spellcaster rules for Evocation and Thaumaturgy, each one provides 2 focus item slots (4 total).  The writeup has him using 4 focus item slots, 2 each on his staff and glove for +1 power and +1 control with water offensively and defensively respectively.  He then uses 2 enchanted item slots for his willow sword.  Given that he has already used up his allotment of focus item slots for his staff and glove, he would have needed to spend that point of Refinement on getting additional focus or enchanted item slots.  He should therefore have either 2 unused enchanted item slots or 1 unused focus item slot.  This leaves the possibility open that Ramirez might have an item like Harry's Force Ring, which might be set to fire the green blasts...

As far as I can tell from his write-up Ramirez fully used his Refinement, as he has four slots worth of focus items, his Warden's sword (two enchanted items slots) and an additional specialization in Water evocation (effectively, his "GM" allowed him to split the benefits of his Refinement into a new specialization and his sword).

Though I'm with you on the missing Rotes.
Title: Re: A few spell casting questions
Post by: Todjaeger on July 24, 2010, 05:16:52 AM
As far as I can tell from his write-up Ramirez fully used his Refinement, as he has four slots worth of focus items, his Warden's sword (two enchanted items slots) and an additional specialization in Water evocation (effectively, his "GM" allowed him to split the benefits of his Refinement into a new specialization and his sword).

Ack!  Missed that 2nd water specialization, so yeah, it does look like he was 'allowed' to split his Refinement, which makes sense to me. 

There is still the matter of the missing Rotes (and just what are those green blasts?) and the definite possibility that Ramirez was written up underpowered.  Having looked again at his writeup, those green blasts could be a series of Fantastic (+6) shift blasts, or they could be components of a Great (+4) shift zone-wide attack, or could be elements of a split attack, with a pair of Good (+3) shift blasts for every casting...  In other words, there are a number of different ways this could have been done.