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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Mal_Luck on April 17, 2010, 11:59:13 PM
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Cold Iron seems to be one of the most common catches, but what exactly counts as cold iron? I mean are all bullets cold iron?
I tried searching Your Story, but couldn't find much mention of it.
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Bullets aren't normally, since they're lead, but steel-jacketed round appear to count (at least, they seem to have in Summer Knight).
That said, I'd be interested in an answer as well. Does steel in general count? That's...really broad actually.
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as far as the books appear to be concerned any iron and most steal works. which is a very different thing that "cold iron" but that's the precedent that's been established.
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Bullets aren't normally, since they're lead, but steel-jacketed round appear to count (at least, they seem to have in Summer Knight).
That said, I'd be interested in an answer as well. Does steel in general count? That's...really broad actually.
I won't get into real life stuff (because who cares, it is a game). But in game terms your bullets can be whatever you want.
However it seems to be harder to get steel jacketed rounds (I did an internet price check to no avail, not that I tried too hard) than copper alloyed (most seem to be 90 to 95% copper with either nickle or zinc to help prevent corrosion). Most armor piercing rounds tend to be steel jacketed (if not also steel cored), so that might be related.
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I won't get into real life stuff (because who cares, it is a game).
I am utterly convinced, in real world folklore, that people have utterly misinterpreted the phrase "cold iron".
"Cold iron burns faeries" is the basic folklore.
People have thus tried to figure out what "cold iron" means -- is it cold-worked iron, does it include steel, must it be meteoric iron, etc.
I think people are overthinking.
Remember, in folklore, one can thwart the faeries by turning your clothes inside-out. So, "cold iron" is just a reversal. That is, I read it so:
"Cold (room-temperature) iron burns faeries (as if it were red-hot)."
In the Dresdenverse, it's way more expanded than that, but I think starting from the idea that all iron and steel are poison to the fae is a good way to go.
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... Chadu, your post is the best post on cold iron I've randomly stumbled across in forever. I'm going to be borrowing your logic for a long time to come.
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Definitely the simplest answer, and so the best.
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Occam's razored!
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The Gruffs use submachine guns, at least according to their stat blocks, so it can't be all metal.
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The SMGs could've been specially made of non-ferrous materials. Or the Gruffs could be wearing gloves. I'm not saying it is all metal, but it could be. The Gruffs using guns isn't good evidence one way or the other.
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Steel and iron are both supported by the series to date. So iron alloys and iron itself.
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I wonder if there is a certain threshold percentage of iron in an alloy that below which it no longer acts as the bane...
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I wonder if there is a certain threshold percentage of iron in an alloy that below which it no longer acts as the bane...
If there is, it's a moving target, not a fixed one. Even Bob says (in an earlier novel) that the formulations for certain magic elements aren't always the same due to the way magic ebbs and flows.
(At least I seem to recall him saying something like that. Getting a specific book and page reference would take more time than I currently have.)
So I'd be inclined to apply the same logic to efforts to "science up" magic too much -- at least in my game -- because that de-magics magic for me.
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(At least I seem to recall him saying something like that. Getting a specific book and page reference would take more time than I currently have.)
First or second book, couldn't tell you which though as i just rapidly went through both. im inclined to say its the first in the scene when bob is talking harry into makeing a love potion.
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During Fool Moon Bob says you still need inherited silver to kill a Loup-Garou. That rule hasn't changed since an undisclosed date.
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During Fool Moon Bob says you still need inherited silver to kill a Loup-Garou. That rule hasn't changed since an undisclosed date.
You're right! What he didn't say is "you need an alloy composed of at least 47% inherited silver".
He just said You Need Inherited Silver.
Same logic: You Need Cold Iron, not "you need a steel alloy composed of at least 35% cold iron".
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I have some concerns brought to me by a player and they are pretty valid. With the catch of cold iron covering all iron and steel weapons almost every Tom, Dick and Harry will have access to cold iron or steel. I know I was going to make sure to take modern materials into consideration. Between high carbon steels, titanium coated or titanium blades, plastics and polymers, and even aluminums or other alternative metals I think that barring an npc specifically going after a character with cold iron intentionally I was going to kinda make a random check to see if any specific weapon used would meet the catch, so that not every knife in the world will bypass his character's defenses. Does anyone have any suggestions on how they might handle this in the game?
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I wouldn't worry too much about something like that. Basically every kitchen knife would satisfy the catch, unless you actually have one of those ceramic ones. Originally the idea behind the cold iron is, I believe, the fact that it is a representation of humanities technical evolution that gives them an edge over the faeries magic. Which I would translate as "anything with iron in it is fair game". That is a big part of why the faeries are not as prominent today as they might have been in the past, I think.
If you want to give your players a hard time with this, at least grant them a fate point for it by compelling them on the fact that there is no iron around.
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Most of my players either use magic or guns. Since most guns aren't going to be firing steel cored or steel jacketed rounds (and such rounds out of non-assult rifles can actually tear up the gun pretty badly), it means that they either have to make special preparations or use lower level skills (such as weapons, which is low for most) to attack. It's still an advantage. We've got one sword user with Weapons as his peak skill, but he's really a beast no matter what in combat (IoP sword with, effectively, Sacred Guardian on it and some Sponsored magic with enchanted items).
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You're right! What he didn't say is "you need an alloy composed of at least 47% inherited silver".
He just said You Need Inherited Silver.
Same logic: You Need Cold Iron, not "you need a steel alloy composed of at least 35% cold iron".
I'm of the opinion that any amount of iron is probably enough to satisfy the catch, but at the same time, though, wouldn't it make sense that something that has more pure iron in it would be more potent than an alloy composed mostly of another metal? Perhaps not enough to make a difference catch-wise, but it might figure into compels. For example, steel-jacketed bullets would need to hit on target to trigger the catch, while a pure-iron horseshoe might only need to be close to be worth compelling the nearby faerie.
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Wow....dug deep to ressurrect this thread. ;)
"Cold" iron is a bit of a misnomer. It refers to the temperature metal is forged at, not to an alloy. I.E. whether or not it was worked above or below the metal's recrystallization temperature. (Very rough explanation.)
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For the purposes of the Dresdenverse, the term seems to be applied rather more loosely, though. There have been several incidents (the 'Za Lord's Guard springs to mind) involving modern-manufactured steel which served as clear examples of a Fae's catch, and modern-manufactured steel does not fit that technical definition.
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I am utterly convinced, in real world folklore, that people have utterly misinterpreted the phrase "cold iron".
"Cold iron burns faeries" is the basic folklore.
People have thus tried to figure out what "cold iron" means -- is it cold-worked iron, does it include steel, must it be meteoric iron, etc.
I think people are overthinking.
Remember, in folklore, one can thwart the faeries by turning your clothes inside-out. So, "cold iron" is just a reversal. That is, I read it so:
"Cold (room-temperature) iron burns faeries (as if it were red-hot)."
In the Dresdenverse, it's way more expanded than that, but I think starting from the idea that all iron and steel are poison to the fae is a good way to go.
"Cold iron is a poetic and archaic term for iron, referring to the fact that it feels cold to the touch" So definitely correct. I also remember it said somewhere any object composed with lots of iron in it is considered Cold iron
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I am utterly convinced, in real world folklore, that people have utterly misinterpreted the phrase "cold iron".
"Cold iron burns faeries" is the basic folklore.
People have thus tried to figure out what "cold iron" means -- is it cold-worked iron, does it include steel, must it be meteoric iron, etc.
I think people are overthinking.
Remember, in folklore, one can thwart the faeries by turning your clothes inside-out. So, "cold iron" is just a reversal. That is, I read it so:
"Cold (room-temperature) iron burns faeries (as if it were red-hot)."
In the Dresdenverse, it's way more expanded than that, but I think starting from the idea that all iron and steel are poison to the fae is a good way to go.
I wonder, then if scalding-hot iron would fail to meet the catch.
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I wonder, then if scalding-hot iron would fail to meet the catch.
I'd let the Gm call that. I think it would create some interesting moments. (seelie fire magic on a steel blade...does nothing.)
Actually, i'm gonna make that a new rule for my campaign
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I'd let the Gm call that. I think it would create some interesting moments. (seelie fire magic on a steel blade...does nothing.)
Actually, i'm gonna make that a new rule for my campaign
I presume bullets, subject as they are to air friction when fired, coupled with their proximity to a small explosion, get a bit hot: would they, then, *not* satisfy the Catch, too?
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It seems, going by the books, that Iron is Iron...but it might be interesting to play it so, say, cold iron does more to Summer fae, while hot iron does more damage to Winter.
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It seems, going by the books, that Iron is Iron...but it might be interesting to play it so, say, cold iron does more to Summer fae, while hot iron does more damage to Winter.
While they would get quite warm when exposed to the friction of the barrel, I believe that any friction caused by the air would be offset by the heat lost from convection.
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I honestly think keeping it in the spirit of the novels works best. Any ferrous substance satisfies the catch. This keeps Fae from taking over the mortal realm.
However...
I suppose another option could be something like this or the inverse:
The weaker the Fae the harder to Catch ( requires cold wrought iron ) while stronger Fae can be hurt by alloys containing iron. Invert that the opposite if you like.
Also you could say the catch rating matters: +1 cold wrought iron only... +2 any iron non alloy... +3 any alloy with even trace amounts of iron.
You could also have it based on grade of toughness +1 for inhuman, +2 for Supernatural, and +3 for mythic. The greater protection allows for a broader catch? Using the grading chart above of course.
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I kind of like that, Silver. +1 is harder to satisfy than +3 makes perfect sense.
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I kind of like that, Silver. +1 is harder to satisfy than +3 makes perfect sense.
Thanks.
I like it too.
I still like the underlined portion of my post best, but I like the alternative also.
In most other games I've played in or run (as GM) I've used cold iron as cold wrought iron, but Mr. butcher set a precedent and it makes sense in that universe.
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I'd assume at least nearly all fae are affected by any iron (including steel and other mostly-iron alloys) ... even Mab flinched at, and Aurora was killed by, 'regular' steel, so even Queens/Ladies don't need cold-wrought iron to satisfy the Catch.
It might be narrower for svartalfar and such beings that are associated with smithwork/craftsmanship (assuming they exist in the DV), though... unless these aren't "really" fae in a (pseudo)biological sense but merely affiliated with them.
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Our world actually points out the possibility of Fae that are not effected by iron with Rawhead and Bloody Bones (on OW50).
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I have some concerns brought to me by a player and they are pretty valid. With the catch of cold iron covering all iron and steel weapons almost every Tom, Dick and Harry will have access to cold iron or steel.
I agree with chadu and Taskill on the 'definition of cold iron' front. On the game mechanics/balance front:
Consider that The Catch pricing says that the +2 level for accessibility covers stuff that "anyone could reasonably get access to, but usually doesn’t carry on them (like cold iron)". I think this description fits exactly with the interpretation that 'cold iron' includes anything that is an alloy of iron. If it meant some specialty forging technique or special mystical version of iron (like in D&D), then it would be worth less of a bonus.
Consider also that Fae are getting (up to) -4 refresh worth of powers for only -1 refresh due to The Catch. Even if the power only works on everything but iron/steel/alloys/etc, that's a LOT of benefit for only one refresh. It covers: fists, guns (except those using steel-jacketed rounds), most clubs, fire (and most other magical attacks), acid, sharpened stakes, claws, teeth, and a great many other things. It doesn't cover most blades, some bullets, and things like steel (but not lead or copper) pipes.
Yes, someone who knows they are hunting Fae and who does a bit of homework can make sure that they bring steel-jacketed rounds. But at the price, it's a steal! And at the very least, it means that you have 2 armor and 4 extra physical stress to use when the wizard starts lobbing fireballs (which can't be steel-jacketed) at you, and that alone is worth at least one refresh, isn't it?
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I agree with chadu and Taskill on the 'definition of cold iron' front. On the game mechanics/balance front:
Consider that The Catch pricing says that the +2 level for accessibility covers stuff that "anyone could reasonably get access to, but usually doesn’t carry on them (like cold iron)". I think this description fits exactly with the interpretation that 'cold iron' includes anything that is an alloy of iron. If it meant some specialty forging technique or special mystical version of iron (like in D&D), then it would be worth less of a bonus.
Consider also that Fae are getting (up to) -4 refresh worth of powers for only -1 refresh due to The Catch. Even if the power only works on everything but iron/steel/alloys/etc, that's a LOT of benefit for only one refresh. It covers: fists, guns (except those using steel-jacketed rounds), most clubs, fire (and most other magical attacks), acid, sharpened stakes, claws, teeth, and a great many other things. It doesn't cover most blades, some bullets, and things like steel (but not lead or copper) pipes.
Yes, someone who knows they are hunting Fae and who does a bit of homework can make sure that they bring steel-jacketed rounds. But at the price, it's a steal! And at the very least, it means that you have 2 armor and 4 extra physical stress to use when the wizard starts lobbing fireballs (which can't be steel-jacketed) at you, and that alone is worth at least one refresh, isn't it?
Responding to what I bolded:
Should a spell that launches iron (forzare! or telekinesis type spells) to throw iron at a fae for full evocation damage, qualify for satisfying the catch?
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I'd say that that type of spell would be a declaration where the aspect was tagged to justify the catch.
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Thanks guys. I know your answers do not make my PC happy but I feel better that I am doing the right thing in how I handle it.
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Thanks guys. I know your answers do not make my PC happy but I feel better that I am doing the right thing in how I handle it.
The big thing is, if he's getting a +3/+4 rebate, he should expect this catch to come up all the time. If he wants a catch which comes up less often, then he gets less of a rebate. An actually "cold forged" iron whatever would be quite rare and expensive, maybe +1/+2 at the most.
Also, keep in mind that steel jacketed bullets are quite expensive. Most "full metal jackets" are copper. So he's still protected quite well from the most powerful weapons most mortals can muster.
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The big thing is, if he's getting a +3/+4 rebate, he should expect this catch to come up all the time. If he wants a catch which comes up less often, then he gets less of a rebate. An actually "cold forged" iron whatever would be quite rare and expensive, maybe +1/+2 at the most.
This.
Also, keep in mind that steel jacketed bullets are quite expensive. Most "full metal jackets" are copper. So he's still protected quite well from the most powerful weapons most mortals can muster.
This is relative...it's only a few dollars difference. Most shooters purchase cheap rounds for target shooting but purpose specific rounds for anything else.