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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: blackheart on April 13, 2010, 02:11:18 PM

Title: Evocation, Shifts, and Persistence
Post by: blackheart on April 13, 2010, 02:11:18 PM: As I read the rules, you can extend the effect of an Evocation for a second exchange for one shift of power.

Wouldn't this allow you to do a full spell worth of damage for two exchanges for only one extra shift?

Ex: A Weapon: 4 attack spell extended for one exchange gives you 8 functional shifts of damage over two exchanges for one discipline roll and one stress point?
Title: Re: Evocation, Shifts, and Persistence
Post by: LCDarkwood on April 13, 2010, 02:20:18 PM: I don't think the logic quite tracks there - an attack is, by nature, an instant effect. You call the power up and you let it fly. So it can't really have duration by default. Even the thaumaturgy "firebomb" trap wards don't really have an effect duration, per se - they just have an amount of time that they store the energy in the trap. When they go off, though, the attack is instant just like with an evocation.

However, if you wanted to allow it anyway, my only suggestion would be to stipulate that having the energy available to make an attack doesn't mean you automatically hit with it. So if you have a Weapon:4 evocation that you're holding for an extra exchange, you still have to make an attack roll with Discipline to see if you can put it on target.

But by default, yeah, no extending duration on attacks.
Title: Re: Evocation, Shifts, and Persistence
Post by: iago on April 13, 2010, 02:25:43 PM: I'll let Lenny talk about things here in detail, but I want to talk about prolonging. To quote the book,

Quote
Alternately, you can actively funnel more
energy into an evocation to maintain it, but this
takes up your standard action for the round.
This is functionally equivalent to rolling another
spell. Summon one shift of power per additional
exchange you want the spell to last, and make
another Discipline roll to control it. This takes
up your action and deals mental stress as per the
usual rules for a normal evocation; the advantage
is that you don’t have to sacrifice the efficacy
of the original spell—it keeps the rating of the
original roll. If successful, the spell effect stays
active for that length of time.

Your prolonging effort is a separate evocation, summoning up power, controlling it, and giving it to the previous spell effect. So that's a second point of mental stress, another round of backlash/fallout risk, etc.

Lenny can swing in here and speak to the matter of whether or not attacks are prolong-able. I'm not sure I'd allow it, but I want a read from him as the point man on the spell rules.
Title: Re: Evocation, Shifts, and Persistence
Post by: LCDarkwood on April 13, 2010, 02:37:02 PM: Quote from: iago on April 13, 2010, 02:25:43 PM
Lenny can swing in here and speak to the matter of whether or not attacks are prolong-able. I'm not sure I'd allow it, but I want a read from him as the point man on the spell rules.

I think the OP was talking about doing it in a single roll, like with a shield spell.

As in, I want a Weapon:4 evocation, that's 4 shifts of power, but I want to extend the duration one additional exchange, so that's 5 shifts of power.

The net effect would be, I have Weapon:4 for two exchanges.

Like I said above, I don't think the logic tracks for attacks. But, you know how it is - not my everything, and I could see it working for a custom hack in a different setting, yadda yadda ad nauseum.
Title: Re: Evocation, Shifts, and Persistence
Post by: iago on April 13, 2010, 02:47:00 PM: Oh, good point. But yeah, things which are an "instant effect" don't get duration. There's a reason we list the duration option specifically in the block section and not as a general option in Evo, right? (Assuming I remember that correctly.)
Title: Re: Evocation, Shifts, and Persistence
Post by: SoulCatcher78 on April 13, 2010, 03:22:37 PM: Here's another similar question (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,15852.msg775974.html#new) about evocation/blocks/shifts.

On the subject of interesting things you can do with spirit evocation involving light and force that would simulate "normal" events:

(Attack)Flashbang rote (ala Dazzler) to stun opponents. Having this go wrong would make for a bad day for the heroes.
(Block)Turning out all the lights with a little Peruvian Instant Darkness Powder (never turn down a good idea).
(Block)Veil the escape route (if the thing chasing you doesn't know that there's an access ladder it can climb, it has to find a different way)...not sure if this will start to get into illusion effects but the bending of light does tend to lean that way and bumps up against Glamours quite a bit.
(Manuever)Shield the ground from you (use an anagled shield to decrease your rate of descent if you get chased off of a building).
Title: Re: Evocation, Shifts, and Persistence
Post by: LCDarkwood on April 13, 2010, 03:39:07 PM: Quote from: SoulCatcher78 on April 13, 2010, 03:22:37 PM
Here's another similar question (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,15852.msg775974.html#new) about evocation/blocks/shifts.

I'm not wading into a 32-page thread, but I'll reply to this here:

I'm not precisely certain how you want to express the effects of the blinding, so I can't comment on your specific numbers. Can you help me out? I will say this, though: your effect strength isn't variable based on your control roll - you have to call up the shifts of power first, and then attempt to control them.

So in your second example, it wouldn't be "I rolled X, so I can do Y". It'd be, "I want to do X, which is Y shifts total, now let's see if I can roll that and get everything I want."
Title: Re: Evocation, Shifts, and Persistence
Post by: SoulCatcher78 on April 13, 2010, 04:01:37 PM: Quote from: LCDarkwood on April 13, 2010, 03:39:07 PM
I'm not wading into a 32-page thread, but I'll reply to this here:

I'm not precisely certain how you want to express the effects of the blinding, so I can't comment on your specific numbers. Can you help me out? I will say this, though: your effect strength isn't variable based on your control roll - you have to call up the shifts of power first, and then attempt to control them.

So in your second example, it wouldn't be "I rolled X, so I can do Y". It'd be, "I want to do X, which is Y shifts total, now let's see if I can roll that and get everything I want."

I think I understand it after working through the steps on pg YS250
1. Element: Spirit
2. What are you doing: Block
3. Power level: PC has Fair Conviction with a single focus (+1) so we are going to use Good (3)
4. Discipline roll: Discipline roll is equal to the amount of power required (good 3)
5. Determine success or failure based on discipline roll and apply feedback/fallout as necessary

For example 2 I would have to increase the amount of power required to 6 (and getting some hella stress since I can only cover "good" power...ouch moderate consequence here I come).

I am still going with the assumption that the shifts on the discipline roll prolong the effect?
Title: Re: Evocation, Shifts, and Persistence
Post by: iago on April 13, 2010, 04:08:22 PM: Quote from: SoulCatcher78 on April 13, 2010, 04:01:37 PM
I am still going with the assumption that the shifts on the discipline roll prolong the effect?

Well, as written, no.

You could get a Good effect that lasts 1 exchange (3 strength); a Fair effect that lasts 2 exchanges (2 for the Fair, +1 for the +1 exchange of persistence); etc.
Title: Re: Evocation, Shifts, and Persistence
Post by: Archmage_Cowl on April 13, 2010, 08:27:56 PM: sorry to just pop in here but i was actually personally going to set it as soul fire can create attacks that last for multiple rounds. Basicly if i read it right in sponsored magic it says that it can invoke an aspect for one point of debt to your sponsor well i was thinkin about makin that work with soulfire normally but one of the bonus's it can do is extend the length of the attack a round or two. To keep it from gettin OP i figured the caster would still have to spend his round controlling the spell(roll discipline to hit like a rote) but otherwise it wouldnt be necassary to draw up the energy again.
Title: Re: Evocation, Shifts, and Persistence
Post by: Korwin on April 13, 2010, 08:34:44 PM: Sponsored Magic can use Thaumaturgic Magic as Evocation or somesuch, not shure how that actually works.
But it sounds like offensive multiple round magic should be possible with that.
Title: Re: Evocation, Shifts, and Persistence
Post by: blackheart on April 14, 2010, 11:58:57 AM: I apologise for any misunderstanding. For my first post I had a lovely example and huge text explaning my question... and then the internets ate it. (Grumble...)

After that I embraced brevity, so things didn't come through quite as clear as they should.

So my original idea was along these lines.

I was specifically thinking along the lines of a semi-continuous effect. The two best illistrations I can refference would be a flamethrower-like attack (hold down the trigger and hose away) or even better, the classic Sith Lord Force Lightning blast.

Example:

Miranda, Wizard of the White Council, is facing off against Nameless Bad #3.
Miri has Con:3 and Dis:4 with a copper rod focus (+1 offensive air power).
Nameless is tough but not very agile, so Miranda wants to get best bang for the buck on her spell.

She casts a Lightning Spell at Weapon 4. Let's assume she gets a +1 on the roll for 5 shifts and for 1 stress.
Nameless gets a net 0 on his defense roll.

Option 1a: Now at this point, let's say we're spending the extra shift for one exchange duration.
We could say that it is a persistent effect so Nameless takes a 4 stress damage effect this exchange and the next exchange.
However, should Miranda re-roll her Dis on the second exchange for keeping the spell "up"?

Or 2a: She would re-roll for both maintaining the spell and targeting? And if so, would Nameless get another defense roll to get out of the way of the attack?

And if 2a holds true, then what would be any difference between it and any other standard Evoc roll?
Or is this whole idea just a convoluted scheme to drive a hole bigger than the Holland Tunnel right through the spell rules?

thank-you for your time and attention.
Title: Re: Evocation, Shifts, and Persistence
Post by: Deadmanwalking on April 14, 2010, 12:09:00 PM: Check out Orbius under the sample spells, that's really how you build this kind of thing.
Title: Re: Evocation, Shifts, and Persistence
Post by: KOFFEYKID on April 14, 2010, 12:21:06 PM: I could see this working for lots of spells, say Im going to call down a thunderstorm, it'll take a while for it to disperse. Lets say Im going to make an earthquake type effect, that might take a few exchanges to die out.

Remember when Harry works that bit of Earth Magic in the caves in White Knight?
(click to show/hide)
The one that buys Harry and Ramirez time to regroup with half the white court trying to eat their faces.
Title: Re: Evocation, Shifts, and Persistence
Post by: Korwin on April 14, 2010, 12:26:50 PM: Was'nt that an maneuver?
Title: Re: Evocation, Shifts, and Persistence
Post by: Deadmanwalking on April 14, 2010, 12:29:45 PM: It could just as easily be a zone wide Block effect with some shifts put towards Duration. Though that'd be expensive and tiring to do well. Still, it was the culmination of a full case's worth of Compels plus him using Sponsored Magic, so it's very possible.
Title: Re: Evocation, Shifts, and Persistence
Post by: KOFFEYKID on April 14, 2010, 12:40:42 PM: The way I see it is it had to be a block. There was still magic happening (molten lava is was shooting out of the ground for heavens sake, theres got to be something pushing it up), I could see coating the ground in ice to apply a slippery aspect to a zone as a maneuver, since the ice is made in one instant, then it'll melt away naturally.
Title: Re: Evocation, Shifts, and Persistence
Post by: Biff Dyskolos on April 14, 2010, 07:59:21 PM: Quote from: Deadmanwalking on April 14, 2010, 12:09:00 PM
Check out Orbius under the sample spells, that's really how you build this kind of thing.

I was thinking the same thing. It might be possible to add additional shifts to the spell, instead of increasing the strength of the block, it increases the grappling damage.