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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: xiaolung on February 08, 2010, 07:10:32 PM
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This is less a question and more “advice seeking.”
I have often considered playing Spirit of the Century (and now Dresden Files) over the years, but have avoided it because of the players I have in my relatively small gamer pool. I don’t think I’ve got the group for it, but am considering giving it a try with them anyway (read: my group is too small. If I don’t get them onboard, I won’t be gaming with FATE at all) because I know they are interested in ‘aspects’ of this game.
First, what do you do about power gamers? I ask this because a couple of players are interested only in “winning” an RPG. They’re not interested in story. They just want to “game.” They also enjoy D&D 4e more than World of Darkness because they have no desire to “play losers” (WoD Changelings are ‘losers’ in their minds – I’m not making this up – it’s their words). Anything that creates a setback of any kind makes them losers in their minds. I am afraid Aspects would be thought of in terms of “how much power can we get without giving the GM anything to make us suck”. Stats are generated to give the most efficiency as well. Even explaining the intent of the game (your ideas give ME the kinds of things you find cool about the game and want to get out of the game – and allow US to tell a good story) and the intent of Aspects won’t be enough. I still won’t get any Aspects that are double edged (I’ll get lots of “Strong as an Ox” type Aspects – nothing that deliberately gives a GM a tag to hang a problem/conflict/story on. And needless to say, there is no way either of them would ever take up Sponsored Magic). I am also really afraid that this would translate into the City creation as well. We might end up creating something that is completely bland or devoid of anything interesting just because they will seek to remove the teeth out of anything that can harm them. This is not just blind guessing about the type of reactions I expect, this is my experience with them over the course of 10 years of playing other games. Should I just simply avoid them (see comment regarding small gamer pool) or is there some other advice you can give me?
Second, I also have a player who gets overwhelmed by FATE. A few years ago, so I could play SotC as a pickup game, I had a night of character creation. All three agreed. Two (not the two in the above question) got into character creation after they figured it out how cool Aspects were. But she froze. She had a very difficult time with the free-form process. We sailed through the first two phases, but couldn’t start on the third until she was done – and this just added to the pressure. Eventually, she gave up (about Phase 3) and almost cried. It was not fun for her. It was too taxing. She couldn’t think of anything. We tried gently steering her in the right direction (there was no hard sell or pressure. We patiently waited for her – the stress she created was in her own mind), but the idea of Aspects and of creating something tres cool on the fly overwhelmed her. This is not the first time this has happened. Other more free form indie games have given her the same type of headache. She is the type who simply wants to visualize a character, create her stats and start to play her role. Background and character comes during play. Anything else is too much. Because of her emphasis on character during play, I think she will really enjoy the game and the control it gives the player once she starts playing, but getting her over the hump of character creation is going to prove to be very difficult. My thoughts are to avoid her as a player altogether but she brings her hubby in to play as well – and he liked the Aspects part of the game (see small gamer pool comments again). I know I could give her the “fast play” rules and then run everyone else through it, but then her character would be somewhat divorced from the City and I believe she would ultimately be getting the short end of the stick for gameplay. How would you handle someone like this?
So, just a couple of advice questions from someone who really wants to try this game out. Is my group too dysfunctional for this game? Any advice would be helpful.
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First, what do you do about power gamers? I ask this because a couple of players are interested only in “winning” an RPG. They’re not interested in story. They just want to “game.” They also enjoy D&D 4e more than World of Darkness because they have no desire to “play losers” (WoD Changelings are ‘losers’ in their minds – I’m not making this up – it’s their words). Anything that creates a setback of any kind makes them losers in their minds.
These are not people I enjoy playing with, and honestly, not people that I think will thrive in the Dresden Files RPG.
It might be worth pointing out to them that by their definitions, Harry Dresden is a loser. Dude is all about setbacks.
Second, I also have a player who gets overwhelmed by FATE. A few years ago, so I could play SotC as a pickup game, I had a night of character creation. All three agreed. Two (not the two in the above question) got into character creation after they figured it out how cool Aspects were. But she froze. She had a very difficult time with the free-form process. We sailed through the first two phases, but couldn’t start on the third until she was done – and this just added to the pressure. Eventually, she gave up (about Phase 3) and almost cried. It was not fun for her. It was too taxing. She couldn’t think of anything. We tried gently steering her in the right direction (there was no hard sell or pressure. We patiently waited for her – the stress she created was in her own mind), but the idea of Aspects and of creating something tres cool on the fly overwhelmed her. This is not the first time this has happened. Other more free form indie games have given her the same type of headache. She is the type who simply wants to visualize a character, create her stats and start to play her role. Background and character comes during play.
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How would you handle someone like this?
I'd handle her using "on the fly" character creation. It exists in Spirit of the Century, too -- you may want to look it up and consider how that approach would work with her.
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You might also suggest that she make her character by herself. Not do the novel thing (granted, but come up with aspects) on her own. Or at least think about it, write down any ideas ahead of time.
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These are not people I enjoy playing with, and honestly, not people that I think will thrive in the Dresden Files RPG.
It might be worth pointing out to them that by their definitions, Harry Dresden is a loser.
I know. And that's my problem. Pointing this out won't help much when they create their own characters.
They still love the books, though.
I would really like them to thrive in the world, but they may not be up to the challenge.
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I would really like them to thrive in the world, but they may not be up to the challenge.
Yeah. I'd just make sure not to talk to them about this with any sort of judgment inherent in it. "Y'all won't have fun with this system or with the kinds of characters that make sense in the Dresden Files universe." Leave it at that, see what they have to say. This isn't anti-your-friends, it's just case of a bad fit.
I think the notion that games *should* fit every player well is kind of poisonous. The DFRPG definitely wants players who enjoy complex, flawed characters.
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That said...
There's a fun little "trick" in Fate in general that may not be obvious to your friends. Creating flawed characters makes you more powerful. You're less of a loser by playing someone who can lose. From a strictly gamey, min-maxy perspective, creating characters with big honking flaws means you'll get more currency faster that you can spend to make your character be more awesome when the moment really needs it. You could *try* selling your friends on this idea, but it's tricky.
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That said...
There's a fun little "trick" in Fate in general that may not be obvious to your friends. Creating flawed characters makes you more powerful. You're less of a loser by playing someone who can lose. From a strictly gamey, min-maxy perspective, creating characters with big honking flaws means you'll get more currency faster that you can spend to make your character be more awesome when the moment really needs it. You could *try* selling your friends on this idea, but it's tricky.
This occured to me after reading some of the playtester notes. Replenishment of fate points (so that I can have a higher probability of succedding on my over the top chandalier swinging moves) is going to be critical to the player who wishes to be "flashy". Characters with flaws have a higher chance of being faced with "compels" (if I'm using the terminology correctly) than characters who are created without flaws. How you interpret the flaw when compelled makes the story interesting (there were some excellent examples given here (http://www.rickneal.ca/?p=77) in the comments). Being hit with a compel doesn't mean the character is forced into the worst case scenario of the flaw (although it is possible).
This is one of the more interesting things about the system so far (and why it works so well in the Dresdenverse). You don't want to play a perfect charactrer, those are the boring ones.
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For the powergamers, I wouldn't worry about them making combat wombats since it is VERY hard to make an unbalance/overpowered character in Fate and as Fred has already mentioned generally in Fate the flawed characters are the powerful ones (probably the best way to be a munchkin in Fate is to be a fishmalk and try to milk Fate points by doing random crazy stuff all the time, but that can be reined in pretty easily by a good GM).
With the powergamers I'd try to steer them towards aspects that are awesome but can still be compelled. For example:
Looks like a badass: good for many things but can be compelled to make people notice him and focus on him when he's trying to maintain a low profile.
I don't take any lip: quite a bit like Dresden complete lack of diplomatic abilities (at least in the earlier books) where he needlessly antagonizes all kinds of people.
I can take him alone: gets a compel to take a baddie on one-on-one.
That sort of thing, basically give them compels to do muscleheaded stuff and they'll get Fate points for acting "badass" and they might even like the game. Probably cater to what they want a bit and give them plenty of jerky enemies that disrespect them personally that they can pound into the floor. A bit of mindless violence can be fun and the aspects could get them in the mood of comic book style smackdown, which seems to be what they want.
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For the powergamers, I wouldn't worry about them making combat wombats since it is VERY hard to make an unbalance/overpowered character in Fate and as Fred has already mentioned generally in Fate the flawed characters are the powerful ones (probably the best way to be a munchkin in Fate is to be a fishmalk and try to milk Fate points by doing random crazy stuff all the time, but that can be reined in pretty easily by a good GM).
With the powergamers I'd try to steer them towards aspects that are awesome but can still be compelled. For example:
Looks like a badass: good for many things but can be compelled to make people notice him and focus on him when he's trying to maintain a low profile.
I don't take any lip: quite a bit like Dresden complete lack of diplomatic abilities (at least in the earlier books) where he needlessly antagonizes all kinds of people.
I can take him alone: gets a compel to take a baddie on one-on-one.
That sort of thing, basically give them compels to do muscleheaded stuff and they'll get Fate points for acting "badass" and they might even like the game. Probably cater to what they want a bit and give them plenty of jerky enemies that disrespect them personally that they can pound into the floor. A bit of mindless violence can be fun and the aspects could get them in the mood of comic book style smackdown, which seems to be what they want.
Consider that idea stolen!
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Excellent judo-flip there, Bosh. Yeah: figuring out flaws that make the character more of a badass (though in ways that always complicate the situation) is an interesting way to try to address the "loser" concern.
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For the powergamers, I wouldn't worry about them making combat wombats since it is VERY hard to make an unbalance/overpowered character in Fate and as Fred has already mentioned generally in Fate the flawed characters are the powerful ones (probably the best way to be a munchkin in Fate is to be a fishmalk and try to milk Fate points by doing random crazy stuff all the time, but that can be reined in pretty easily by a good GM).
With the powergamers I'd try to steer them towards aspects that are awesome but can still be compelled. For example:
Looks like a badass: good for many things but can be compelled to make people notice him and focus on him when he's trying to maintain a low profile.
I don't take any lip: quite a bit like Dresden complete lack of diplomatic abilities (at least in the earlier books) where he needlessly antagonizes all kinds of people.
I can take him alone: gets a compel to take a baddie on one-on-one.
That sort of thing, basically give them compels to do muscleheaded stuff and they'll get Fate points for acting "badass" and they might even like the game. Probably cater to what they want a bit and give them plenty of jerky enemies that disrespect them personally that they can pound into the floor. A bit of mindless violence can be fun and the aspects could get them in the mood of comic book style smackdown, which seems to be what they want.
Nice.
The flip side of this is to go a different route: to make Failure either Funny or Cool, while still giving out extra EXP or Fate/Luck points as a reward.
The old RPG TOON is a great example of this. Everyone makes their own version of a favorite Cartoon Character.
A mature group can even mix Heroes with Villains, so that the FilmMaster does not have to do all of that work.
(If I can get a mature Group, I'll play the Mega-Villain with some heroic support staff [NPCs] to get the PCs out of really deep trouble.)
The idea is to get your TOON PC into as many difficult situations as possible, and see what happens.
Remember cartoons like the Original Merry Melodies (Bugs Bunny, Tweety and gang?) or Tom & Jerry or the fairly recent movie of Who Framed Roger Rabbit?
Sylvester chasing Tweety and always failing in spectacular ways:
sometimes it's getting munched by Spike the Dog: sometimes sliding into the Ocean: sometimes having Jerry throw a frying pan into is face at the last moment.
The same thing happens to Tom Cat, with Jerry D Mouse and Butch The Dog.
The goal is to be able to make it to the end of each Game Session and look back and everyone can compair notes and laugh their heads off at what all happened, even to their Character.
Once they see that 'failing' can be fun, try to get more serious and step up to more serious Cartoons:
Thundercats, Silverhawks, Biker Mice From Mars, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, etc.
(In TMNT- The Filmaster would be Shredder, and the Villain PCs could be like Bepop, Rocksteady, or one of the Foot Clan Ninjas.)
If they are still "Game" - give the Dresden RPG a try.
Remember, Mature Players are made, not born. Every GameMaster started as a Munckin (not only a little kid, but also the RPG terms) of one kind or another.
Also, get out there and start looking for more Players.
Yes, it takes time, and it can be a pain in the butt - however, it can pay off.
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Let's make sure we don't make this conversation about people being "mature" or not. It might not be about maturity at all. I prefer to look at it as different styles of play. Some folks prefer winning over storytelling, and the hobby is big enough for both of them.
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Different play styles mean different aspects get used more (there is no badwrongfun, it's a myth). It's up to the GM to balance the story so that one single character doesn't get all the glory (at least all of the time). If I have a player who is a tactical/combat oriented individual, I need to make sure that they get enough action to tide them over for the times when the role play oriented players drag them through one library after another.
Think of it as shopping with your spouse. If you're going to get any time in the book/electronic/hardware store, you have to suffer through some purse duty.
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Let's make sure we don't make this conversation about people being "mature" or not. It might not be about maturity at all. I prefer to look at it as different styles of play. Some folks prefer winning over storytelling, and the hobby is big enough for both of them.
No offense was meant.
The fact that xiaolung specifically stated that he was concerned about losing his small gaming group over this was what I was basing that statement on.
If they look at any/all setbacks as failure, that is not very mature. Sure, they might be mature in other areas, but this is their own Flaw as players in the Games.
The fact that they have been a gaming group for years may be their only hope.
The Dragonslayer (video-arcade-game plug!) does not always defeat/kill the Dragon - sometimes the Dragon gets him.
Also, I forgot to mention that in TOON, their characters never die, unless the Player wants that to happen.
The PC 'kicks the bucket' and usually goes to heaven.
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If they look at any/all setbacks as failure, that is not very mature. Sure, they might be mature in other areas, but this is their own Flaw as players in the Games.
In your opinion, that is not very mature. Stating it as an absolute treads close to certain guidelines as to how people may or may not refer to one another on this forum. My moderator hat ain't on, but let's just step away from that line of thinking. This thread could turn into an argument otherwise, and *that's* what I'm trying to head off here.
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Thank you very much for your responses thus far. They are much appreciated.
While writing this response, I decided that despite my small group, I cannot run this game for them. It is not a good fit and it would end in disaster. That being said, my group’s play style is not going to prevent me from picking up what is already turning out to be a labor of love. I am both a fan of FATE and Dresden. You’d have to lash me to the mainstay to stop me from getting a hold of these books. I WILL find a play group. It may take a while, but I will.
Anyway, just thought I would give you a bit more detail about my play group and “losers” and respond to a couple of the posts.
The Power Gamers in my group do not like setbacks of any kind. Disadvantages that complicate their character’s lives and “make things more interesting” make said characters “losers”. They’re losers because they have big, gaping flaws that allow the GM to exploit them and take control from their hands. Give them a problem to solve or a world to save, they’re fine. Kidnap their character’s sister – they’ve got a problem with that. That’s a setback that they can’t stand. Even if it makes things more interesting, they’ll hate you for it. They’ll sigh and trudge forward thinking that you’ve got a plotline all figured out and that the train on the GM Railroad Express starts here.
So they would hate Aspects. Pure and simple. Although they have never tried this or its sister games (SotC), my experience (over 10 years of weekly play) with them has given me enough info so I can make an educated guess as to what their reactions would be.
In previous games with Disadvantages (Disads give you points for Character creation), they don’t take ones like ENEMY or DEPENDENT because the GM can use it as a weakness. They take things like CURIOSITY which depends almost solely on the Player’s action. The Player decides to do something or react to something. Not the GM. Mind you, Curiosity, of course, could be “compelled” by telling the Player who is blatantly ignoring a clue that he must be “curious” but I’ve never had to before.
So pointing out that Aspects that create Flaws that would allow you to get more Fate Points (and thus more power) during the game wouldn’t help much. They don’t want to be compelled to do anything. In their opinion, GM’s should not have that kind of control over the PC’s. If they want to use their Aspects, they will use it their way. Not the GM’s.
They would be very wary about any of my suggestions for Aspects (what is HE up to?).
The Aspects they create will most certainly only be made to be as positive as possible. I will get a lot of “Strong as an Ox” Aspects – which are bordering on boring and hard to compel negatively.
If they actually took some of the suggestions for Aspects (which I love, by the way. Thank you), especially Aspects which at first blush, look very hard to compel in a negative manner, the first time I throw a Fate Point their way and compel their Aspect in such a negative manner, they will complain and say that is not what they thought or intended. They will feel cheated. Needless to say, unless they absolutely think the idea is a good one, they will reject the Fate Point. In the future, they will try and avoid any situation where I can compel that Aspect in the same or similar manner.
I can see myself becoming more and more frustrated as I try and make the game fun and interesting only to be stonewalled by the Power Gamers who refuse to allow any Aspect to be compelled.
I guess what I have concluded is (and I am sure this is obvious to most here), Dresden/Fate is NOT an RPG designed for Power Gamers. It is an RPG designed for Players to tell interesting stories (which I like to do).
They don’t want to play flawed ‘losers’ and I can’t see myself playing this game with them.
Sorry for the rant. I just had to explain a few things.
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Cool. That's a conclusion, then. We can put this one to rest.