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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: meg_evonne on August 10, 2009, 01:23:58 AM
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Okay, I've a character with a smaller than a bowie knife fighting a ghoul with a scimitar. Is it possible for such a knife to parry a blow from a scimitar? My guess with a sword--that would be a no, but a scimitar? Any chance that I can make this work?
Thanks all...
Oh and best wishes on the Hugo awards tonight, JB!!!!
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The parry would be a definite no. ;)
But given that the scimitar is a pretty large blade that in most hands (especially in undead hands) is used like a giant meat cleaver, go for a bit of finesse in a different way, such that the ghoul with the scimmy over-commits, etc and winds up a bit off balance, giving the fighter with the dagger an opening to strike ... or shove, or whatever fits best.
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There's more than just "my weapon's bigger than yours" at play here.
Do the ghouls in your world possess average strength, or are they more zombie-like in their movements? If they move noticeably slower or with less power than a human, then I would say it's possible. Also, issues like what kind of ground they're on (how much higher up one is than the other) could make the situation possible.
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Sorry, I've trained in edged weapons my entire adult life, and there's no way. The sheer kinetic energy of the scimitar strike would either knock the knife out of your character's hand immediately, or break half the bones in your character's hand first, thus making him/her drop it.
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Sorry, I've trained in edged weapons my entire adult life, and there's no way. The sheer kinetic energy of the scimitar strike would either knock the knife out of your character's hand immediately, or break half the bones in your character's hand first, thus making him/her drop it.
Assuming, again, that the ghoul's strength is comparable to a human's. Just because he can swing it doesn't mean he can do so with any force.
But, if the ghoul has all the strength of say, your average 12 year old, then said bowie knife isn't going to help in parrying.
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Maybe the knife wielding character could stab/impale the ghoul's wrist, thereby stopping the blow? It would probably take some fancy footwork as well. Not saying it's realistic, but it ::might:: be plausible depending on the ghoul's and the knife fighter's abilities. Also how girtty/cinematic you want the story to feel.
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A normal block/parry? no, unless as BfP said, the zombie is moving abnormally slow. This would substantially lessen the kinetic energy of the blow (E_k=M*V^2). Now if your knife wielder is skilled enough they might be able to step in and catch the wrist of the sword-wielder with the knife, doing so damage that way, thought it may be both more realistic and cinematic if they could anchor it into something (stab it into the tree they are standing next to or some such) rather than take all that force themselves. But if the knifer is that much faster than the scimmy-guy, then they could probably dodge instead, perhaps with some side-swatting to nudge it a bit as they move. Again that comes to relative skill levels.
Also this is assuming the ghoul gets no supernatural strength, other-wise its more a pure not-a-chance scenario.
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Smaller than a Bowie knife. Not likely, unless the non-ghoul is VERY fast and strong, and even then, it would be less of a parry and more of a super-fast beating-aside of the blade... and if he's that fast and strong, that's probably the last stroke that ghoul's taking.
Now, if it were a Bowie knife, especially the larger, heavier varieties, then yes. That's pretty much a short sword, and it's very heavily, sturdily made. KA-BAR would fit the bill, too.
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The way I understand how a parry works you are just redirecting the blade not blocking the blow outright. When I took fencing lessons years ago my instructor said you use the six inches or so closest to the guard of your blade for defence. To illustrate this he had each use a modified blade, which was only six inches, to practice parries. I can't recall his name, but he claimed to have trained several sucessful Olympic fencers.
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The way I understand how a parry works you are just redirecting the blade not blocking the blow outright. When I took fencing lessons years ago my instructor said you use the six inches or so closest to the guard of your blade for defence. To illustrate this he had each use a modified blade, which was only six inches, to practice parries. I can't recall his name, but he claimed to have trained several successful Olympic fencers.
Interesting. In terms of contact force, fencing is one of the weakest styles, due mostly to the relatively low mass of the sword.
Meg, what type of scimitar are you picturing? Ive seen everything from a thin curved rapier to thick bladed falchion style be called a scimitar. Wielded one handed or two?
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A slight deflection, maybe, if owning mad super skills rubbed with luck. A scimitiar has lots of Lopping Power, with all the mass out there towards the end. Acts as one hell of a "force multiplier." Same reason a ghurka knife can lop heads that a longer sword of the same weight couldn't.
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The way I understand how a parry works you are just redirecting the blade not blocking the blow outright. When I took fencing lessons years ago my instructor said you use the six inches or so closest to the guard of your blade for defence. To illustrate this he had each use a modified blade, which was only six inches, to practice parries. I can't recall his name, but he claimed to have trained several sucessful Olympic fencers.
Eh . . . sorry if I sound like a jerk, but I don't buy it. I fenced collegiate, national championships, and then taught collegiate . . . the last 6" of the blade are no doubt the strongest, but actually training to parry with that 6" is foolish.
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When you have a smaller weapon like a knife fighting a long weapon like a scimitar, footwork is far more important than bladework. If you are using the knife, and are staying out at a range of 2-4 feet where the scimitar wielder can make a solid strike you would be a fool to try to parry it on the swing. The key is to rapidly close into in-fighting range where you can trip up your opponent, and keep them from effectively using their weapon while you have room to use your smaller one. You can do this by circling your opponent so they have to turn before they can strike, or by staying far back so they have to rush to strike, and then close quickly to get inside of their range when they make their move.
You need to be constantly aware of where the opponent's blade is and not be there when it is about to hit you.
You CAN redirect a large blade with a smaller one, but it is very difficult, and you have to be strong, fast, and precise to do it. On the other hand, nothing gives you motivation like a 2 and half feet of sharp steel coming at you very fast. :P
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great input. Yes, it's the larger, normally two handed, scimitar that I'm using. Although I still hold out hope that Gravesbane is correct, I realized that the character with the small knife is not a trained fighter and a novice. Further as I worked the scene, it's more like a continuous barrage of attacks and the likelihood of success - even with the first being lucky--it just isn't going to work. The ghoul is slower, but only marginally so vs a character who's magic has increased her speed and agility AND the ghoul's other hand is in use, so the two handed weapon would be wielded by one hand only.
Adding up those elements--I still came down on the side that this character isn't going to save herself with fancy footwork and a sudden athletic ability to fight.
Instead, I fell back on an idea that this knife that possesses an ancient history of magic use might have a mystical imprint that is actually larger than its physical attributes. I ended up with the character testing that out successfully before entering the battle with the ghoul. Hopefully, it doesn't come out as contrived and a miracle rescue at the point of need. Headaches. The knife is billed as able to cut through magic and time. It isn't meant to be used offensively, and only in dire circumstances as a defensive weapon.
Thank you all for an intelligent discussion of these two weapons. If what I've done doesn't work, then I'll be back here reading your comments again.
Once more--thank you!
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One question on the knife: Since you are specifying that the knife is designed for defense, does it have a basket hilt or an oversize guard? If so that changes things. A basket hilt is almost a small shield, and you can punch block another hand weapon with one rather easily without using the blade at all.
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If its cutting through Time, you can do all sorts of fun things to block a blow that neatly sidesteps physics entirely. It could slash a short term rift in space-time that (due to the necessity of normal cause/effect in the universe) cannot be passed through edgewise. The effect would be a floating line of Do-Not-Pass. The possibilities are endless when space/time manipulation is involved.
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If its cutting through Time, you can do all sorts of fun things to block a blow that neatly sidesteps physics entirely. It could slash a short term rift in space-time that (due to the necessity of normal cause/effect in the universe) cannot be passed through edgewise. The effect would be a floating line of Do-Not-Pass. The possibilities are endless when space/time manipulation is involved.
True, but using those early in the narrative would be like watching the matrix with Neo being able to fly and stop the bullets in mid-flight from the beginning. You would lose out on the skyscraper window not-escape and the training, and the kung fu.
It looks like meg was looking for a beliveable way to have the hero fight of the ghoul using the weapon as a simple tool before unlocking the artifact level goodies, which would likely work better for her scene.
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True, but using those early in the narrative would be like watching the matrix with Neo being able to fly and stop the bullets in mid-flight from the beginning. You would lose out on the skyscraper window not-escape and the training, and the kung fu.
It looks like meg was looking for a believable way to have the hero fight of the ghoul using the weapon as a simple tool before unlocking the artifact level goodies, which would likely work better for her scene.
Oh, true. It still has the same deus ex issues that any added superpower would if its early in the story. Its just a cool way to go about it without needed a whole list of unrelated powers. If its already going to cut space/time/magic, how does that relate to a chakra blade extension ability (sorry for the Naruto reference, it wont happen again :P)
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hey if its gonna cut magic, can it cut the magic that animates the ghoul? assuming youre animating yours of course
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or maybe hyper-age the sword so that it turns to rust on contact when the MC blocks/parries?
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One question on the knife: Since you are specifying that the knife is designed for defense, does it have a basket hilt or an oversize guard? If so that changes things. A basket hilt is almost a small shield, and you can punch block another hand weapon with one rather easily without using the blade at all.
Just an oversized guard. My whole thought process was tied up with that intriguing little cut into the metal near the hilt that is designed to snag, trap, and twist the larger weapon out of the other's hand. I've never found a place to use that and it seems like such a useful little inclusion in smaller weapons. Sort of the small shall endure type thing that I love--but in this case...
Another thing that comes up... Can you parry with a basket hilt? I guess I think of the basket as protection of the fingers beneath--not as a parry device.
If its cutting through Time, you can do all sorts of fun things to block a blow that neatly sidesteps physics entirely. It could slash a short term rift in space-time that (due to the necessity of normal cause/effect in the universe) cannot be passed through edgewise. The effect would be a floating line of Do-Not-Pass. The possibilities are endless when space/time manipulation is involved.
The main character receives it as a gift at the point her powers manifest. So she has only the simple comment that it does that. The knife is minimized and causes her problems when she assumes it will help her with her current delimima. Since she has no training or understanding, it only gets her into hot water and doesn't solve her problem at all. The space/time travel thing is used by an older character with years of training. For my main charater she will not obtain full use of the knife for at least two more books. We must grow into our magic--gifted magic knifves or not--at least in the world I created.
Frankly, the discussion did a great job of bringing me back to reality and the true capabilities of my main character. She's not designed to be warrior woman, even if she were completely up to speed with her magic abilities. Not that she needs rescuing--it's just not going to happen with her weapon or magic skill at this point of her life. She has to use her wits and her problem solving abilities to get the job done. Who knows with training and if the need arose for later books---if I consider a series.
or maybe hyper-age the sword so that it turns to rust on contact when the MC blocks/parries?
Oh, oh, oh--that would be cool. I'll keep for later use! thank you!
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the type of knife your looking for is called a main gauche! its made for catching and trapping swords, just as you suggest ;)
it went out of style around the time rapiers came INTO style.
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Another thing that comes up... Can you parry with a basket hilt? I guess I think of the basket as protection of the fingers beneath--not as a parry device.
It depends on what the basket is made of, but yes, you can parry with a basket hilt. I know because I have.
This is the kind of basket hilt I use on my SCA swords:
(http://darkvictory.com/assets/images/baldar_cup_edit1.jpg)
It's a hilt designed specifically for SCA heavy combat, made of a high-density, high-durometer, injection-molded Sanoprene material. The form loosely matches a Scottish basket hilt shown here:
(http://www.swordsandarmor.com/images/SD910882_Scottish_Regimental_Hilt.JPG)
These hilts are designed to save your hand from being cut by a sword, and you can use that to stop the blade from hitting you. The technique that works best for me is to make a punching motion with the hilt aiming at the pivot point of the blade's swing. The entire movement takes maybe a quarter of a second.
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the type of knife your looking for is called a main gauche! its made for catching and trapping swords, just as you suggest ;)
it went out of style around the time rapiers came INTO style.
Okay, I have a new favorite website!!! main gauche is exactly what I was thinking.. only wish they were older than 17th century.. but check this out! http://www.swordsofhonor.com/daggers.html But my overall favorite is this one for my character. It's perfect. http://www.toledosword.com/pr/CASSH2208TS.html#CASSH2208
These hilts are designed to save your hand from being cut by a sword, and you can use that to stop the blade from hitting you. The technique that works best for me is to make a punching motion with the hilt aiming at the pivot point of the blade's swing. The entire movement takes maybe a quarter of a second.
Your model looks less likely to get caught in defensive mode. The spainish one is gorgeous.
But I fear you lost me on the "pivot point of the blade's swing" - wouldn't the pivot point be the person's wrist or elbow? Or do I need to go more 3d here rather than the simple thrust. The pivot point would shift to a section of the blade if the wrist or elbow is thrusting forward, but also spinning it somewhat? Can't seem to picture that. I admit my fighting skills are based from fencing classes in college----years ago.
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But I fear you lost me on the "pivot point of the blade's swing" - wouldn't the pivot point be the person's wrist or elbow? Or do I need to go more 3d here rather than the simple thrust. The pivot point would shift to a section of the blade if the wrist or elbow is thrusting forward, but also spinning it somewhat? Can't seem to picture that. I admit my fighting skills are based from fencing classes in college----years ago.
The pivot point I'm talking about is anywhere from the wrist of the hand holding the sword to the first 1/4 of the the blade from the hilt. It's much easier to stop a blade there, because there is less force needed to stop it in that area. A long cutting blade is a lever, and the most force is going to be at the end of the blade. All fencing except schlager and saber to a lesser extent has very little to do with an actual swordfight, since epee and smallsword are thrusting weapons with low mass and no blades. I guess modern fencing weapons are similar to some of the dueling swords used in the late Renaissance, but using them to model a fight between someone using a scimitar or other heavy blade is not a good idea. Most longswords (and scimitars) are slashing weapons with a heavy blade and no sharpened tip. They are very different fighting styles.
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But I fear you lost me on the "pivot point of the blade's swing" - wouldn't the pivot point be the person's wrist or elbow? Or do I need to go more 3d here rather than the simple thrust. The pivot point would shift to a section of the blade if the wrist or elbow is thrusting forward, but also spinning it somewhat? Can't seem to picture that. I admit my fighting skills are based from fencing classes in college----years ago.
May I suggest this site:
http://www.thearma.org/ (http://www.thearma.org/)
... assuming that the ghoul in question is using Western European sword techniques. On the other hand, this might be a good starting point for other 'traditional' techniques, such as those that Saladin's forces used against the Crusaders.
I can't address your original question (parry a scimitar with a not-quite-Bowie knife) with any authority. All I can calculate is that, with magical boosting of speed and stamina, the character MIGHT be able to do a borderline-cinematic move. The image in my head borrows several frames from Neo's first bullet-dodge and assumes that the ghoul's strike is a nearly-horizontal cut more like a baseball swing, aimed at your character's waist. The character presents the flat of her knife to make contact with the ghoul's strike and guides it slightly upward, while she does the best limbo move in her life to get the ghoul's target under the plane of the strike.
The practical upshot is that she's not 'parrying the strike' so much as she is dropping under it. It's borderline-cinematic because a non-magically-augmented fighter might not be able to move fast enough to drop under a full-speed sword strike, and an all-out attack with a sword marks the ghoul as something other than a trained fighter, as well. I can only invoke the "Rule of Cool" to justify the suggestion at all.
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Going off what jtaylor said, it would also depend on how close your character is to the ghoul. If she can get inside his range, she has a much better chance of parrying since the ghoul wouldn't be able to swing the sword fully if he swings it down at her. The ghoul's intelligence level can be a factor here. If it has the intelligence of the average ghoul, it might not realize that a sword is not the best weapon to use when someone with a smaller weapon is within the range of your sword.
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Since you've mentioned the blade was magic I had another thought. What if the blade's magical properties in the invisible realm/4th dimension/spirit world are incongruous with its physical qualities? I think you stated it's a defensive weapon, so maybe the wielder can defend with it as if they were using a bigger, more robust weapon.
I imagine the ghoul striking at her and she cringes and reflexively throws up the knife to parry. With a normal weapon, no way. But sparks fly as the blades collide and she's just as surprised as the ghoul to find out that she was able to block the strike. As the battle continues she may (or may not) notice that the knife casts an eerie shadow of a large sword that's easily a match for the scimitar. Just a random image that came to me all of a sudden.
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Since you've mentioned the blade was magic I had another thought. What if the blade's magical properties in the invisible realm/4th dimension/spirit world are incongruous with its physical qualities? I think you stated it's a defensive weapon, so maybe the wielder can defend with it as if they were using a bigger, more robust weapon.
I imagine the ghoul striking at her and she cringes and reflexively throws up the knife to parry. With a normal weapon, no way. But sparks fly as the blades collide and she's just as surprised as the ghoul to find out that she was able to block the strike. As the battle continues she may (or may not) notice that the knife casts an eerie shadow of a large sword that's easily a match for the scimitar. Just a random image that came to me all of a sudden.
For the moment, that is what I decided to do. (See one of my earlier posts.) I made the magical 'imprint' or size or power cover a larger area than the the physical knife itself. I introduced it earlier in the book with a test so it blended in with the action.
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For the moment, that is what I decided to do. (See one of my earlier posts.) I made the magical 'imprint' or size or power cover a larger area than the the physical knife itself. I introduced it earlier in the book with a test so it blended in with the action.
Hmm. Sort of a modified reverse of the Sun Blade:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#sunBlade
I say "modified" because the bastard-sword-sized weapon feels and handles like a short sword, whereas your dagger DOESN'T seem to feel or handle like a short sword but magically occupies the same space; it wouldn't make sense to have something dagger-sized feel as heavy and have the same inertia as a short sword. Is that about right?
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my first association was to the chakra blades in the Naruto anime. Despite this picture they do extend out to several feet when needed.
(http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/5756/322897-asuma_sarutobi_large.jpg)
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Take a lesson from Indiana Jones. When the other guy has a bigger sword, pull out your large caliber revolver and shoot him.