It's Crap! Should I finish???

[meg_evonne]

Why do we write?  Because we must.  It doesn't matter if no one reads it at all, although that would be nice.  I do believe that writer's are driven to write.  It's in our genetic makeup.  I do believe that the roller coaster ride can be less traumatic than Suilan describes and a sense of humor and friends always makes the difficult times more enjoyable.  That and a mood control drug...

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

First drafts are always crap, don't let that discourage you.

Some writers like to outline (thoroughly) a story to the end before writing the first scene (and when they do write the story down, they don't even have to do it chronologically, because that's how well they outline plot and chapter beforehand). Others like to plunge right in with only a fuzzy idea of who their main character is and one inciting incident / object / setting, whatever. They like to discover their characters and plot while writing. When they found their them, yes, they will have to go back to the beginning and add a few (OK, a LOT) of clarifications. There's nothing wrong with either method. The writer automatically chooses the method that works best for him.

I'm not at all sure I believe in putting the theme in deliberately, fwiw.  That way lies Atlas Shrugged.

- go over each scene and revise for scene goal (does the scene have a scene goal that moves the plot forward toward the finale? If not, revise until it does) and focus within each scene (does the scene stay on topic regarding the scene goal).

the thing is, too much of this and it feels contrived, like an exercise. If you wasnt your characters to come over realistic, they have to do real-people things, such as be distracted by food and pretty people from the pursuit of the plot. real people don't stay 100% on topic, because it is exhausting.

Each scene has to do something, sure.  That something does not always have to be primarily plot development. 

[Suilan]

I'm not at all sure I believe in putting the theme in deliberately

I believe in discovering your theme as you write. You have discovered your theme if you are able to tell someone (who hasn't read your work) in one sentence what the story is about. You need to find your story's theme before you can write a query. Knowing what your story is really all about also helps with revision.

the thing is, too much of this and it feels contrived, like an exercise.

Or like a Harry Dresden novel.    They're my favorite examples to show how scene structure works. (See Jim's journal on scenes and sequels.)

So no, I wouldn't agree that having a scene goal for every scene and then staying on focus makes your writing feel contrived. As with every writing technique, of course it can be done badly.

Anyway, my point was that the time to take care of all these things is AFTER finishing your first draft.

I know writers so obsessed with perfecting their early chapters that they never get anywhere near the end. That's a waste of time, imho, because even with the most detailed outline you cannot foresee everything that happens in your story, so once you're finished you will have to go over the entire manuscript scene by scene in any case.

[blgarver]

Yeah, all of this stuff is encouraging.  It will be a big lesson to just finish.  Throughout this long road of the WIP I've taken two hefty breaks to write a couple of short stories just to feel the relief of finishing something.  Both stories turned out great and simply finishing them was a great refresher and motivator.

So I have to imagine finally finishing this novel will be a huge sensation of accomplishment for me, even if the first go-round is crap.

I like the idea about reading my fav how-to's before I rewrite.  Stephen King's "On Writing" is probably my favorite one, because it's more of a "why-to" than a "how-to".  I found that book to be one of the most inspiring things I've ever experienced.  That and the simple books like "101 Things Every Writer Needs to Know" or this one similar to it that slips my mind at the moment...I can't even remember the author's name right now...grrr. 

Anyway, thanks for the input guys.  I think I just needed to churn the butter a little and step away from my despair and frustration of the muddled plot.  I've also been reading a new (to me) author named Patrick Rothfuss.  His writing is the kind that is impossible to read without having a flash fire of inspiration spark in your brain.  Reading him is helping tremendously.

Thanks again guys!

BLG

[SailorYue]

I know the feling of wanting to say somethings DONE. Most of my fics are oneshots because i get tired of the story when writing chapter stories. You ougta post a sample online on one of th writing siter to get input from strangers. If you ask at the end for people not to flame it you mite get some constructive critizism. As well as positive words. Theres nothing like geting the ego fed.

[IronKite]

Hellz yes.

You know what?  Even if it's *not* crap, finishing is one of the hardest things in the world to do. 

Steven Brust, rule #9:  Remember that getting to the end of your first novel is the most difficult thing you will ever do as a writer, whether it publishes or not. Once you’ve done that once, you can do it again. Get cocky about it.


So true.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I believe in discovering your theme as you write. You have discovered your theme if you are
able to tell someone (who hasn't read your work) in one sentence what the story is about.

I do not believe that every worthwhile story can be summed up in one sentence, put it that way.

You need to find your story's theme before you can write a query.

I'd say this is provably untrue.

Or like a Harry Dresden novel.    They're my favorite examples to show how scene structure works. (See Jim's journal on scenes and sequels.)

To my mind, that works in some of them a lot better than others, and is noticably jerkier in the books where there's more than one plotline going on which don't have much in common and the transitions between them sometimes don't flow overly well; much of why Death Masks is my least favourite (apart from Fool Moon, because the communications failures in that get me down) is because it feels to hop back and forth from "this scene is doing this for the Denarians/Shroud plot" to "this scene is doing this for the Ortega plot" in ways that grate.

So no, I wouldn't agree that having a scene goal for every scene and then staying on focus makes your writing feel contrived. As with every writing technique, of course it can be done badly.

I think the problem with it as a notion for fitting with my own working methods is that if the characters are alive and the story is working, it will surprise me within every scene; trying to focus that on a goal kills it.

I know writers so obsessed with perfecting their early chapters that they never get anywhere near the end.

True, and that's a failure mode.

On the other hand, there are successful published writers out there who cannot revise once they have written a scene, and have to think it through enough to get it right first time; and that approach does not seem, on the whole, to produce less good or less successful books, so if that happens to be the kind of writer you are - I'm not, myself - I would worry that too much emphasis on "you can always fix it in revision" could kill one's ability to write.

[meg_evonne]

Two bits worth from Brett Anthony Johston...

"It's for the reader to define the theme."  :-)  On reflection, I deferred to his wisdom.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Two bits worth from Brett Anthony Johston...

"It's for the reader to define the theme."  :-)  On reflection, I deferred to his wisdom.

I like Iain Banks' standard reply:

"What's (book X) about ?"
"It's about (y) hundred pages long."

[Roaram]

I think I agree with Azj, if a story isn,t working, try something new. Why hack away at something you know is no good? you can cry "experience" all you want, till the cows come home. But no matter how much you experience "crap", you don't get experience on doing things right. for example I am writing a novel, and got all the way to the first big plot point, and then realized that my writing sucked. certain scenes/chapters were good. but as a whole it was sliding into awful. so, I scrapped it and started over. by analyzing what sucked, I realized what to do. after a stressful group of months I dragged my story onto its feet and now its running, with only a stumble or two on the way.

basically its like this, I agree you can't learn to ride a bike without falling down, A LOT, but its no use to keep pedeling once you hit the ground. same with writing. once you suck, stop, pick it up, and figure out what you did wrong.

by the way I do not suggest wearing a helmet while writing, while riding I maintain helmet use to be a good idea.

[SailorYue]

heh, i came across the first fanfic i ever wrote the other day. IT is pure crap. i hate how bad my writing was back then. but as much as i hate it, ill never throw it away because it's the first recreational story i ever wrote.

[blgarver]

I'm plowing through the end, guys.  I'm so close it would be dumb to not finish.  I'm within 3 chapters of finishing.  If I was ten chapters, I might just stop and let it rest, and comb through it and pinpoint the wrong turns and start over.  But I'm a week's worth of writing from finishing it.  It's salvagable.  This is basically the fleshing out/outline.  I know the story now, I know what I want the characters to be (and more importantly, what I want them NOT to be), and I can nail the plot down to a handful of major points.  So this whole thing was good to drag the story out of me.  Considering it was only supposed to be a one page romp just to write something when I was bored at the office one day.  I'm pretty happy with what has grown from it.

[meg_evonne]

heh, i came across the first fanfic i ever wrote the other day. IT is pure crap. i hate how bad my writing was back then. but as much as i hate it, ill never throw it away because it's the first recreational story i ever wrote.

The question is, 'what did you learn by finishing it that you applied to your next one?'  :-)

[SailorYue]

Well my second story sucked too. And its cuz i was making fun of the anime dub. My first saga is my first decent story. Thats why these 2 orange folders are my most priyed possesions. Realy the onlything BAD about them is i used the dubs character names. Once i publish them on FF.net i plan to use theyr real names.

[SailorYue]

I think i learned to think thru my stories. Like let the plot play out in my head. If i cant end it i drop it. Unfortunately i suffer from attacks from my muse. Sometimes shed give me a doyen ideas at once and i end up with a notebook with stories that have starts but no bodys or ends.