Copyright laws?

[AverageGuy]

Actually, I had a similar question involving song lyrics.

Imagine aside, this could potentially be a problem.  Dirty Harry, Star Wars, Star Trek - like several Beatles songs, they're all embedded in pop culture, hence cultural relevance.  Quotes from more obscure sources might not give you the same leeway.

The good news is authors don't have to worry about it too much.  If you think you're in a grey area, then, in your cover letter, just mention that you haven't gotten permission, attribute it, and the editor'll know whether you need permission and how to get it.

[Uilos]

Imagine aside, this could potentially be a problem.  Dirty Harry, Star Wars, Star Trek - like several Beatles songs, they're all embedded in pop culture, hence cultural relevance.  Quotes from more obscure sources might not give you the same leeway.

The good news is authors don't have to worry about it too much.  If you think you're in a grey area, then, in your cover letter, just mention that you haven't gotten permission, attribute it, and the editor'll know whether you need permission and how to get it.

That's what I was thinking. The story I'm writing, involves songs heavily. I'm not planning on adding the lyrics to every song I'm gonna mention, just the ones that are relevant to the plot. The main character is an audiophile, most of the references are through him, along with most of the attributions.

[Cathy Clamp]

Registered post here makes the postal service liable.  If they register it, that makes it their responsibility, so they make sure it's sealed.  They don't register it until the examined contents are sealed within.  Anything sent by registered mail is given a permanent unique ID number, and the records of the post office will suffice in court as evidence of when the item was posted.

  Where are you located? 'Cause that's not a requirement of the U.S. Postal service, and liability is only related to delivery, not to contents. The records of the post office aren't admissable in federal court, because the post office is only a QUASI-goverment agency, not an official one. And since it's only the U.S. system that requires registration at all, it seems like it wouldn't much matter anywhere else.

[meg_evonne]

So some additional questions on a great discussion:

1. I've noticed that some publishing houses and agents are hesitant to look at works that have been posted online.  Does this include some critique sites that have been listed here?  I can't recall them immediately but one was an Orson Scott Card site?

2. If you are working on a series of books, is it wise to reveal future portions of that series as you send out your queries?

3. Does the copywrite emblem need to be on literally everything you send out by mail or e-mail?  Or is the registration sufficient? I fear that I've been going on advice that said--anything you write is copyrighted.  That is apparently true, but often difficult to prove apparently? Or at least costly to prove?

4.  If you take part in a workshop or an on-line writing course from a well known, respected provider can you feel secure that your words won't be lifted?  I have done so, and wondered.  I mean--how can any online course provider guarantee what fellow students might do? I've taken a class with several published authors (primarily non-fiction) and one quit the class  after she approached an agent about her work of fiction.  what are your thoughts?  Still for most of us to get to professionals to teach us how to improve our craft, our options are limited.

5.  Finally, if you are a published author--do you routinely register your work when it's in the last stages of completion?  Frankly 35.00 seems rather minor amount for peace of mind.  Thoughts? 


Thanks, I figured my worst headaches were finally over with a completed fifth draft finished.  Maybe I've been naive...


sorry folks, edited for brain fart....  blame it on the blankety blankety blank water here in IA.  My workshop was cancelled--in fact it looks like the UI lost 19 buildings--all in the fine arts, the theater, the art, the english and the list goes on...  Pray for us!

[Mickey Finn]

1) Wondered that myself, actually.

2) Touch on them. IMHO, editors would like to know if it's a set series, and that you know where it is going if it is. (We're tolking actual serialized stories, instead of a series like the Dresden Files)

3) If you send anything to a LEGIT house, do not include copyright info. They're not going to steal your idea and give it to another writer. If you include the copyright, it's a big neon sign saying "Toss me in the ribish pile!"

4) No guarantees. However, said plagiarist would be an idiot, as you have an entore workshop full of witnesses that it was yours.

[OZ]

Where are you located? 'Cause that's not a requirement of the U.S. Postal service, and liability is only related to delivery, not to contents. The records of the post office aren't admissable in federal court, because the post office is only a QUASI-goverment agency, not an official one. And since it's only the U.S. system that requires registration at all, it seems like it wouldn't much matter anywhere else.

Registered mail is normally used for valuable, irreplaceable items and can be insured for up to $25,000. Also the postage is going to vary based on the weight of the contents. If your local post office is allowing people to send opened, unsealed envelopes in the registered mail they are opening the post office up to fraudulent insurance claims. They need to be reported to the postal inspection service. Postal records are definitely admissable in court. That is why lawyers, collection agencies, federal agencies like the IRS, and even the courts themselves use traceable forms of mail like certified or registered mail to send important documents that require proof of delivery time.

[Cathy Clamp]

and even the courts themselves use traceable forms of mail like certified or registered mail to send important documents that require proof of delivery time.

Correct. Delivery TIME, but not proof of contents. That's the issue with copyright. One of the reasons this method isn't accepted by the federal district court for copyrights is BECAUSE people have done it before (mailed and then later filled the envelope with a manuscript.) Even the weight can be easily adjusted by sending blank pages that are later replaced by using scotch tape for the first mailing, then removing the tape and using the gummed label to later seal it. Seems like a lot of work, but it really has been done.

1. I've noticed that some publishing houses and agents are hesitant to look at works that have been posted online.  Does this include some critique sites that have been listed here?  I can't recall them immediately but one was a Carson Orson Card site? 

Potentially, yes. See, here's the deal. An awful lot of people confuse "copyright" with "first rights." But they're two entirely different areas of law. Copyright law has little to do with contract law, which is what publishers deal with (unless you're foolish enough to transfer the ownership of what you've written.) When you enter into a contract with a publisher, you're certifying that you're giving the publisher the right to be the FIRST to publish the book. This is because the publisher intends to make a profit on the book. If the works are posted online for everybody and their dog to view for free, why then would that same group of readers later go out and BUY it? The trick with first rights is that it's very subjective---which is why there's so much discussion about it on the web. Try comparing it to shopping for clothing. If you're shopping and pick up an item that you know has been previously purchased, but was returned with the tags intact, do you consider it "used?" No, probably not. But what if the shirt has obvious dirt and sweat stains on it? Well, duh! Of course it's been used. Are you willing to pay retail price for it? Again, probably not. Same with publishers. Whether a manuscript/story/poem is "used" depends on what you've done with it, and that determination is entirely up to the editor you happen to get, and what they had for breakfast that day. Some editors might see "sweat stains" on a manuscript that was housed on a critique site. Some may not. Unfortunately, you won't know from publisher to publisher---editor to editor, how they feel about it. So, caution is the word of the day so you don't get disappointed by an editor who takes a dim view to ANY website postings. If that makes sense.

2. If you are working on a series of books, is it wise to reveal future portions of that series as you send out your queries?

I don't see why not. Naturally, the goal of any query is to sell a BOOK, not a series, because even if the series is purchased, there's no guarantee it'll ever get written. I can give you a list of a dozen names of authors who have published series that are half complete. Sometimes it's because the first book didn't sell well. Or, it could be that there was an internal staff change and the new editor didn't like the whole concept. Heck, I have one friend who had the publisher drop an entire GENRE. So, if you feel it's important enough to mention, do. But be very cautious when writing that every book is self-contained, so that if book three never sees the light of day, your readers won't be disappointed.

3. Does the copywrite emblem need to be on literally everything you send out by mail or e-mail?  Or is the registration sufficient? I fear that I've been going on advice that said--anything you write is copyrighted.  That is apparently true, but often difficult to prove apparently? Or at least costly to prove?

No, it doesn't. Copyright (in the U.S.) is implied. If you're presenting a manuscript, it IS COPYRIGHTED. There's no need to mention it. It's redundant. No, it's not difficult to prove at all. The burden of proof falls on the LAST to publish. The trick is when the plagiarizer is the first to publish. Then it's difficult, but copyrighting it wouldn't have helped that too much. Keep in mind that when you haven't posted it online for someone to cut and paste, retyping a full ms. is enough of a pain in the patootie that few other than the REALLY dedicated plagiarizers are going to bother. Let's fact facts. A person who plagiarizes is predominantly lazy. That's sort of the point. So, keep the text out of their hands in a format that they can grab, and they're unlikely to bother.

4.  If you take part in a workshop or an on-line writing course from a well known, respected provider can you feel secure that your words won't be lifted?  I have done so, and wondered.  I mean--how can any online course provider guarantee what fellow students might do? I've taken a class with several published authors (primarily non-fiction) and one quit the class  after she approached an agent about her work of fiction.  what are your thoughts?  Still for most of us to get to professionals to teach us how to improve our craft, our options are limited.

I've taught a number of online courses, and I have to admit that I would NEVER ask students to post whole sections or chapters for others to look at. I might have them send in a few paragraphs, but not enough to make it worth stealing. Because that's the trick. The instructor might be above-board. But you don't know who is attending. It's too easy, even with the best of intentions, to "remember" phrasing that you read somewhere (like in someone else's manuscript.) A lot of authors, myself included, hesitate to even read published books in our own genre, just for this reason. You could always approach the instructor privately and share these fears and ask to send samples privately. I'm sure s/he would understand.

5.  Finally, if you are a published author--do you routinely register your work when it's in the last stages of completion?  Frankly 35.00 seems rather minor amount for peace of mind.  Thoughts?

I don't register my work at all. That's the publisher's job, and it's done only when it IS in the "last stages of completion." But that means it's ready for a cover and to hit the street. Anytime before that is meaningless, both because of edits made by the publisher's editor and the street date. That's something I didn't mention earlier, but oftentimes, a publisher is hesitant to copyright a work that already IS copyrighted, and that can spell the death knell of a book in post-publication contests. In 99% of the contests out there, it's the date of copyright that determines whether a book was "published in 2008" or whatever date. If you copyrighted the book today, but it wasn't released until 2009, you're SOL for any contests that have a 2009 copyright requirement. Been there, done that, have the "You can't enter" t-shirt. Our publisher bumped us a few months on one book and it jumped a year. But the copyright page was the previous year, and we were shut out of several contests---even after the publisher sent in a letter of explanation. Them's the rules. 

Does that help any?

[OZ]

Correct. Delivery TIME, but not proof of contents. That's the issue with copyright. One of the reasons this method isn't accepted by the federal district court for copyrights is BECAUSE people have done it before (mailed and then later filled the envelope with a manuscript.) Even the weight can be easily adjusted by sending blank pages that are later replaced by using scotch tape for the first mailing, then removing the tape and using the gummed label to later seal it. Seems like a lot of work, but it really has been done.

I am not arguing with you about whether the courts will accept this for copyrights. I have no knowledge in this area. I do have knowledge of the USPS and if what you are saying has gone on it is in direct violation of the DMM (Domestic Mail Manual). The DMM 2.4.6 specifically says that tape cannot be used to seal registered mail unless that tape will leave visible damage when removed. http://pe.usps.gov/text/dmm300/503.htm#wp1100045 Also when legal documents such as warrants are sent in certified mail, the courts accept the receipt as proof that the documents were received on the given day.  Having said that, if you have knowledge that the courts have rejected this in the past as proof of copyright then it really doesn't matter.

[meg_evonne]

To quote a friend.  YEAOHHH!  I feel a headache coming on.

Okay, rethinking.  Making note of your posting. Thanks for your input Cathy!

[Murphy's Stunt Double]

So some additional questions on a great discussion:

1. I've noticed that some publishing houses and agents are hesitant to look at works that have been posted online.  Does this include some critique sites that have been listed here?  I can't recall them immediately but one was an Orson Scott Card site?

This own't reall answer your question, but the site that I'm a member of has specially designed software that allows a writer to submit their work for critique by an editorial board with the possibility of acceptance for publication, WITHOUT allowing the general public to see the work specifically to avoid this problem. More below....

2. If you are working on a series of books, is it wise to reveal future portions of that series as you send out your queries?

Yes, the business of selling books is a business, and if you can show the publisher you've got more than one good book in you to sell, you are more bankable for their business. Period. [/quote]

3. Does the copywrite emblem need to be on literally everything you send out by mail or e-mail?  Or is the registration sufficient? I fear that I've been going on advice that said--anything you write is copyrighted.  That is apparently true, but often difficult to prove apparently? Or at least costly to prove?

If you have a book that you expect will not be published for a while, I would recommend registering it. If at any time you need to prove in court that your work was yours first, even if someone else publishes first, registration will make or break you in court. However, that's not to say announce it to any publisher you are courting. Registration is part of the publishing process that they do, and once you sign the contract with them, THEN let them know it's a step that has already been taken care of for them.

4.  If you take part in a workshop or an on-line writing course from a well known, respected provider can you feel secure that your words won't be lifted?  I have done so, and wondered.  I mean--how can any online course provider guarantee what fellow students might do? I've taken a class with several published authors (primarily non-fiction) and one quit the class  after she approached an agent about her work of fiction.  what are your thoughts?  Still for most of us to get to professionals to teach us how to improve our craft, our options are limited.

Honestly, I would not take an online course through any site that did not require passwords to access the writing section of the site. Non-secured access kills your opportunity to sell first rights, it's already been "published to the general public". Secured access at least gives you a valid argument if you sell it to a publisher and they question your ability to sell first rights to them.

5.  Finally, if you are a published author--do you routinely register your work when it's in the last stages of completion?  Frankly 35.00 seems rather minor amount for peace of mind.  Thoughts? 

Again, as noted above, especially if you think there may be some lag time between completion and publication, I would recommend buying the $35.00 insurance policy.

Just my .02.

[Cathy Clamp]

Also when legal documents such as warrants are sent in certified mail, the courts accept the receipt as proof that the documents were received on the given day.

Correct---when it is COUPLED with a Certificate of Mailing executed by an officer of the court or their staff. It's the certificate that states the contents. The Return Receipt Requested card certifies the date. (semantics, semantics...  Too many years as a paralegal in litigation and intellectual property.)

I also agree that mailing using tape is an absolute violation of postal regulations. But hey, if a person is plagiarizing, what's a little issue like mailing laws?  It's seldom enforced, and I've no doubt that the court would find it out and find in favor of the plaintiff/petitioner, but it's been done. That's all I'm saying. And the Copyright Office makes it VERY clear on their site that mailing is not a substitute for registration. It doesn't have the same value in court.

We're not disagreeing. Just clarifying both sides for the peeps, after all.

[Kathleen Dante]

Attribution's good enough for a snippet of lyrics.

Actually, it's not. Even one line of lyrics might be larger than fair use allows (in proportion to the whole song). A friend of mine wanted to do precisely that, use one line from a song in her book, a line that was relevant to the story, character and situation. She had to change it because it would have required asking for permission from the song's copyright owner and she didn't want to go through the hassle (neither did the publisher's legal dept, I think).