Author Topic: Fanfic richer or poorer?  (Read 28894 times)

Offline Franzeska

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Re: Fanfic richer or poorer?
« Reply #60 on: April 03, 2008, 03:58:34 AM »
1. do you think fanfic adds depth to a universe, or do you think that the differing styles detract from the expeirance?
2.  why is there so much slash ?
Discuss.

1. I think that fanfic is irrelevant to the original work.  It can add or detract from my experience of a particular fandom, but it doesn't have much to do with my enjoyment of the original.

2. How much is "so much"?  Any?  Slash writers can't even begin to agree why people like slash, forget getting a bunch of other people to agree.  For what it's worth, I actually think slash is much less common than other sorts of fanfic (like stories about straight couples who were actually couples in the original or stories where the author shacks up with her favorite character).  People just notice it more because they find it strange.

Offline THETA

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Re: Fanfic richer or poorer?
« Reply #61 on: April 04, 2008, 03:40:11 AM »
(Just for that, I know I'll get about 500 responses proclaiming the utter weirdness of karaoke.)

--Franzi

Good point, I agree.   We should be equally prejudiced on all fronts of plagiarisms!  ;D
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Offline cassandra

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Re: Fanfic richer or poorer?
« Reply #62 on: April 04, 2008, 06:09:56 AM »
Fanfic is a good thing. Well, not when it's badfic, but you know what I mean.

I think it comes about when someone is so taken with a universe and/or a set of characters that
they're inspired to answer the what ifs and explore different aspects that cannot or will not be explored in the original source material. Inspiring creativity is a good thing. Even the worst piece of grammatically painful, self-insertion riddled, cliched fic can still have flashes of genuine creativity and brilliance. Those flashes may be few and far between, but most fics have some tiny bit of something that can be seen as worthwhile. I do admire folks for actually putting pen to paper (finger to keyboard???) and actually writing something, an act which so many of us lack the fortitude to do.

I don't agree with the slash-bashing, honestly. While I can't personally see how Elmo/Grover or Jesus/Judas could be plausible, I'll congratulate you on your creativity and defend your right to experiment artistically. Considering how many original sources (books, movies, etc.) are male-centric, it makes sense that fans would explore the characters in different ways and combinations, regardless of gender. Besides, in many fandoms, the slashers are older and more mature, thus the slash fic is generally better written. Bandslash is dominated by young girls, but the grownups are writing most of the other slash out there. I know PhDs, professors, lawyers, scientists - lots of really smart, well educated, grown women - who write slash. It's good writing, too. Some of it is similar quality or better than the source. The original source sill wins, hands down, because that person created the universe and the characters, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking that just because someone is published that their work can't stink. Look at the Anita Blake series, for example. It's devolved into polygamous porn, basically, so a good writer might be able to spin a plot that some readers would find more intriguing and compelling than the actual books. Ditto for JK Rowling, who is the most amazing world builder but who is not the most proficient or polished writer.

I think part of the disconnect is in thinking that slash=smut. On the surface, that seems true. There's a lot of porn out there, and slashers are not shy about creating and consuming it. However, in a less heteronormative culture, you'd expect a larger comfort zone with sex and sexuality. Believe it or not, there's a lot of slash out there that involves no sex at all. It's about the relationships, the way the characters interact.

I've never been moved to write any Dresden fanfic, and I doubt I ever will. There aren't any holes that need to be filled, y'know? We get such cool backstories, like with Thomas or Billy & Georgia's wedding. The books themselves don't wrap everything up in a little bow, but we don't have huge, agonizing cliffhangers unresolved either. Plus, knowing that the next book is only a year away makes the suspense tolerable. I don't feel the need to make it up for myself, because it will be along soon enough.

Besides, even though I support slash, I just cannot fathom Harry/Bob.

Offline Noey

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Re: Fanfic richer or poorer?
« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2008, 04:43:48 PM »
Necroposting just a little to add this article, which is reason # 234345-B why authors need to watch the fandoms and fanfic.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/books/04/21/harry.potter.lawsuit.ap/index.html

Rowling openly admitted she was cool with the site, but of course he had to try and publish it, making a profit off of her work. I don't see any malice in his intentions, but this is the kind of line crossing that ruins it for everyone.
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Offline pyroriffic

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Re: Fanfic richer or poorer?
« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2008, 02:46:31 PM »
My first on-topic post! 

Tentatively dabbing my toe into the calm waters of Dresdenville to respond to what is obviously a fairly contentious thread.  As an oft-times fanfic writer myself, I fear that I'm opening myself to being eviscerated alive, but you know.

Nothing like confrontation.

Except more confrontation.

Cassandra, you caught it for me perfectly when you said that fanfic should be about capturing an 'off screen' scene, or using incidental characters who are only mentioned in passing.  The majority of the one-off stories I've written have generally been small scenes, or lesser characters from a variety of fandoms.  The Dresden Files, in my opinion, doesn't lend itself largely to fanfic because the story plans are so well constructed.  Harry particularly wouldn't be good fodder for fanfic material (in my opinion) because he's too well rounded.  As Cassandra points out, characters like Billy and Georgia do lend themselves to fanfic.

I'm a great believer that fanfic should be about character studies, a glimpse into the life of a character as you personally imagine them.  Not re-writing what you know about someone just to suit your purpose.

(Don't get me started on how much I dislike slash-fic-for-the-sake-of-slash-fic, for example).

I've read some very good fics over the years and I've also read some absolute rubbish.  But a lot of people take a lot of pleasure in enjoying their fandoms.  Where the author is not overly bothered about such activity (see, JK Rowling, just don't try to publish anything), then as with everything else, if you're not enjoying something...stop reading it.

Just to skew the conversation in a slightly different direction: what is the overall opinion of 'interactive story' type forum-based fandom 'games'?  Again, I've seen some that are dire beyond belief and others that are good, interactive fun.  I myself write regularly on an original fantasy-based forum and get great enjoyment out of it.

~P~
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Offline Cophet

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Sorry for the megapost but this should be read by all
« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2008, 04:59:47 PM »
Necroposting just a little to add this article, which is reason # 234345-B why authors need to watch the fandoms and fanfic.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/books/04/21/harry.potter.lawsuit.ap/index.html

Rowling openly admitted she was cool with the site, but of course he had to try and publish it, making a profit off of her work. I don't see any malice in his intentions, but this is the kind of line crossing that ruins it for everyone.

2008-04-24  Columns
Uncle Orson Reviews Everything
J.K. Rowling, Lexicon and Oz
   
by Orson Scott Card
   

      
April 24, 2008
Can you believe that J.K. Rowling is suing a small publisher because she claims their 10,000-copy edition of The Harry Potter Lexicon, a book about Rowling's hugely successful novel series, is just a "rearrangement" of her own material.

Rowling "feels like her words were stolen," said lawyer Dan Shallman.

Well, heck, I feel like the plot of my novel Ender's Game was stolen by J.K. Rowling.

A young kid growing up in an oppressive family situation suddenly learns that he is one of a special class of children with special abilities, who are to be educated in a remote training facility where student life is dominated by an intense game played by teams flying in midair, at which this kid turns out to be exceptionally talented and a natural leader. He trains other kids in unauthorized extra sessions, which enrages his enemies, who attack him with the intention of killing him; but he is protected by his loyal, brilliant friends and gains strength from the love of some of his family members. He is given special guidance by an older man of legendary accomplishments who previously kept the enemy at bay. He goes on to become the crucial figure in a struggle against an unseen enemy who threatens the whole world.

This paragraph lists only the most prominent similarities between Ender's Game and the Harry Potter series. My book was published in England many years before Rowling began writing about Harry Potter. Rowling was known to be reading widely in speculative fiction during the era after the publication of my book.

I can get on the stand and cry, too, Ms. Rowling, and talk about feeling "personally violated."

The difference between us is that I actually make enough money from Ender's Game to be content, without having to try to punish other people whose creativity might have been inspired by something I wrote.

Mine is not the only work that one can charge Rowling "borrowed" from. Check out this piece from a fan site, pointing out links between Harry Potter and other previous works: http://www.geocities.com/versetrue/rowling.htm. And don't forget the lawsuit by Nancy K. Stouffer, the author of a book entitled The Legend of Rah and the Muggles, whose hero was named "Larry Potter."

At that time, Rowling's lawyers called Stouffer's claim "frivolous."

It's true that we writers borrow words from each other – but we're supposed to admit it and not pretend we're original when we're not. I took the word ansible from Ursula K. LeGuin, and have always said so. Rowling, however, denies everything.

If Steven Vander Ark, the author of Lexicon, had written fiction that he claimed was original, when it was actually a rearrangement of ideas taken from the Harry Potter books, then she'd have a case.

But Lexicon is intended only as a reference book for people who have already paid for their copies of Rowling's books. Even though the book is not scholarly, it certainly falls within the realm of scholarly comment.

Rowling's hypocrisy is so thick I can hardly breathe: Prior to the publication of each novel, there were books about them that were no more intrusive than Lexicon. I contributed to one of them, and there was no complaint about it from Rowling or her publishers because they knew perfectly well that these fan/scholar ancillary publications were great publicity and actually boosted sales.

But now the Harry Potter series is over, and Rowling claims that her "creative work" is being "decimated."

Of course, she doesn't claim that it's the Lexicon that is harming her "creative work" (who's she borrowing from this time?); it's the lawsuit itself! And since she chose to bring the suit, whose fault is it? If she had left Vander Ark alone to publish his little book and make his little bit of money, she wouldn't be distracted from her next novel.

But no, Rowling claims Vander Ark's book "constitutes wholesale theft of 17 years of my hard work."

Seventeen years? What a crock. Apparently she includes in that total the timeframe in which she was reading – and borrowing from – the work of other writers.

On the stand, though, Rowling's chief complaint seems to be that she would do a better job of annotating and encyclopedizing her own series.

So what?

Nothing prevents her from doing exactly that – annotating and explaining her own novels. Do you think that if there were a Harry Potter Annotated by the Author, Vander Ark's book would interfere with her sales in any way?

This frivolous lawsuit puts at serious risk the entire tradition of commentary on fiction. Any student writing a paper about the Harry Potter books, any scholarly treatise about it, will certainly do everything she's complaining about.

Once you publish fiction, Ms. Rowling, anybody is free to write about it, to comment on it, and to quote liberally from it, as long as the source is cited.

Here's the irony: Vander Ark had the material for this book on his website for years, and Rowling is quoted as saying that when she needed to look up some 'fact" from her earlier books, she would sometimes "sneak into an Internet cafe while out writing and check a fact rather than go into a bookshop and buy a copy of Harry Potter."

In other words, she already had made personal use of Vander Ark's work and found it valuable. Even if it has shortcomings, she found it useful.

That means that Vander Ark created something original and useful – he added value to the product. If Rowling wants to claim that it interferes with her creativity now, she should have made that complaint back when she was using it – and giving Vander Ark an award for his website back in 2004.

Now, of course, she regrets "bitterly" having given the award.

You know what I think is going on?

Rowling has nowhere to go and nothing to do now that the Harry Potter series is over. After all her literary borrowing, she shot her wad and she's flailing about trying to come up with something to do that means anything.

Moreover, she is desperate for literary respectability. Even though she made more money than the queen or Oprah Winfrey in some years, she had to see her books pushed off the bestseller lists and consigned to a special "children's book" list. Litterateurs sneer at her work as a kind of subliterature, not really worth discussing.

It makes her insane. The money wasn't enough. She wants to be treated with respect.

At the same time, she's also surrounded by people whose primary function is to suck up to her. No doubt some of them were saying to her, "It's wrong for these other people to be exploiting what you created to make money for themselves."

She let herself be talked into being outraged over a perfectly normal publishing activity, one that she had actually made use of herself during its web incarnation.

Now she is suing somebody who has devoted years to promoting her work and making no money from his efforts – which actually helped her make some of her bazillions of dollars.

Talent does not excuse Rowling's ingratitude, her vanity, her greed, her bullying of the little guy, and her pathetic claims of emotional distress.

I fully expect that the outcome of this lawsuit will be:

1. Publication of Lexicon will go on without any problem or prejudice, because it clearly falls within the copyright law's provision for scholarly work, commentary and review.

2. Rowling will be forced to pay Steven Vander Ark's legal fees, since her suit was utterly without merit from the start.

3. People who hear about this suit will have a sour taste in their mouth about Rowling from now on. Her Cinderella story once charmed us. Her greedy evil-witch behavior now disgusts us. And her next book will be perceived as the work of that evil witch.

It's like her stupid, self-serving claim that Dumbledore was gay. She wants credit for being very up-to-date and politically correct – but she didn't have the guts to put that supposed "fact" into the actual novels, knowing that it might hurt sales.

What a pretentious, puffed-up coward. When I have a gay character in my fiction, I say so right in the book. I don't wait until after it has had all its initial sales to mention it.

Rowling has now shown herself to lack a brain, a heart and courage. Clearly, she needs to visit Oz.

**********

http://greensboro.rhinotimes.com/Articles-i-2008-04-24-177772.112113_JK_Rowling_Lexicon_and_Oz.html
"But, of course, I love the poetry of someone putting himself way up on a pedestal and then getting knocked the hell back down into this puddle of self-hatred with the rest of us."
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Offline novium

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Re: Fanfic richer or poorer?
« Reply #66 on: June 02, 2008, 08:01:10 PM »
If you ever want to pass it around, or actually see it in print anywhere, though, it would be best to pick either historical characters and situations (e.g. Harry Turtledove's Guns of the South), or literary characters that have passed into the Public Domain, like Dracula (e.g. P.N. Elrod's Quincy Morris, Vampire).  There's an almost infinite number of characters and situations a writer can choose from, without stepping on another writer's copyright.

The problem is that things aren't passing into the public domain anymore, and that's across the board. There is a ton of copyright abuse, because there's no incentive not to. And on top of that the extensions to copyright passed in law every time some big corporation realizes one of its cash cows is about to pass into the public domain. As it stands, IIRC, pretty much the entire 20th century is going to be off limits until well into this one.

I honestly don't have a problem with fanfic. It tends to stay off in its own little corners of the internet, not hurting anyone, not making any money off of it, as far as I can see. If you don't want to know about it, you can happily live in ignorance (as I mostly have). Having looked into it a bit more- thanks to tvtropes, I now know a little bit more about fandoms than I did previously (which basically amounted to "they exist"). In some cases, I now wish i could go back ot that state, but anyway- I don't really see the difference between it and, oh...rampant speculation. It's just fan communities having a little fun. How is it different than having a conversation about it? And if anyone claims to have never, ever, once in their life had a conversation along the lines of, "hey, you know that movie franchise we just saw, wouldn't it be cool if in the next one they did XYZ?" I will call them a liar.
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Offline Soulless Mystic5523

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Re: Fanfic richer or poorer?
« Reply #67 on: June 02, 2008, 08:39:04 PM »
Alot of the copyright extensions are done by Disney. Which is rather funny, when you realize that much of their work is pulled from the public domain.
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Offline Yeratel

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Re: Fanfic richer or poorer?
« Reply #68 on: June 02, 2008, 09:24:23 PM »
Alot of the copyright extensions are done by Disney. Which is rather funny, when you realize that much of their work is pulled from the public domain.
Fairy tale characters and folklore figures are public domain, but original cartoon characters like Mickey Mouse, the Smurfs, and Spiderman are not. Anybody can write, publish, and/or sell variations on Sleeping Beauty with no legal troubles, but if you want to write new adventure for Mickey or Spidey (or a  Mickey Spidey crossover  ;D), you're gonna need permissions from the rights holders.
Writers who think they've got a great new story idea for an existing character resent the fact that copyrights now last for the life of the author, plus 70 years, but the author's heirs who are entitled to retain the income from his works appreciate it very much.
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Offline Soulless Mystic5523

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Re: Fanfic richer or poorer?
« Reply #69 on: June 02, 2008, 09:26:40 PM »
I'm aware of that, but when Disney does its extensions, they're not just extending their Mickey copyrights, but all of them.
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Offline Yeratel

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Re: Fanfic richer or poorer?
« Reply #70 on: June 02, 2008, 10:03:33 PM »
I'm aware of that, but when Disney does its extensions, they're not just extending their Mickey copyrights, but all of them.
They can copyright their particular version of something like Sleeping Beauty, but not the character itself.
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Offline novium

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Re: Fanfic richer or poorer?
« Reply #71 on: June 02, 2008, 10:09:00 PM »
I'm aware of that, but when Disney does its extensions, they're not just extending their Mickey copyrights, but all of them.

not to mention that copyright holders often ignore what is allowed, and go after people anyway. So easy to send off cease & desist letters, and then there's the possibility of squeezing money out of someone. That disney used so much from the public domain has not stopped them from acting as if they own it.
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Offline Soulless Mystic5523

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Re: Fanfic richer or poorer?
« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2008, 10:18:36 PM »
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20080530/1507241271.shtml

Funny copyright battle. Well, not so much battle, as dispute.
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Offline Yeratel

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Re: Fanfic richer or poorer?
« Reply #73 on: June 02, 2008, 11:27:07 PM »
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20080530/1507241271.shtml

Funny copyright battle. Well, not so much battle, as dispute.
As the old saying goes, how you feel about it depends on whether or not it's your ox getting gored.

BTW, I believe the characters in Casablanca dropped into the public domain in 2002, which may have inspired the interest from Madonna's production company in making a remake. If anyone want's to pick up the story where the movie left off, and follow Rick and Louie and Ilsa through WWII, now's your chance.

For myself, I'm eagerly awaiting the next installment in Michael Kurland's series about the Sherlock Holmes character, Professor Moriarty.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 11:29:39 PM by The Angel Yeratel »
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