Fanfic richer or poorer?

[Antimatter Girl]

My personal attitude is "Why write about someone else's characters and universe when it's so much more rewarding to create you own?"

Erm...haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if anyone else has addressed it, but simply put: because the authors of said fanfic don't find it more rewarding to come up with original material. You might think it is, but what is considered fun and rewarding varies greatly from individual to individual. Personally, I like to come up with original characters in a pre-existing world; then again, my "fanfic" writing has always been a component of my RPG groups, so I'm a little skewed.

But yeah. That's what I like to do. Do I plan on coming up with my own worlds and playgrounds some time down the road and writing about them? Yup, sure do, but not everyone is an aspiring author. Some folks just like writing fanfic. So, as long as these people are doing something they find fun and enjoyable, and are of no harm to anyone's intellectual property, what's the big deal? Let 'em write and share, and you can just sit back and laugh and/or shudder at the twisted minds that think it would be neat if Kirk and Spock got together.

Oh, and a note about Star Trek novels...an excellent example of how fanfic can be legal and profitable. Some RPGs I've played in have even accepted some of them as canon -- New Frontier, to be precise, but I'd also make the case for actor authored books such as The 34th Rule and A Stitch In Time. Then there's the whole Extended Universe novels in the Star Wars franchise, and, well, just about any RPG that's ever been created for any other franchise, including The Dresden Files. The only difference between a bunch of people playing with character sheets and dice and fanfic writers is that the RPG people generally don't transcribe what happens in play sessions into story format

[Antimatter Girl]

Okay, now I have read the whole thread, and I think I see where you guys are coming from. The problem is, you're not necessarily seeing where the fanfic writers are coming from.

I do not hang out in fanfic circles, just Star Trek RPG circles, but I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of fanfic writers don't intend to make any sort of profit off their writings. The ones who do (and I have seen them, at conventions, with really scary pictures of Kirk and Spock doing questionable things with their shirts off) deserve to have the book thrown at them, because they are profiting off of something to which they do not own the copyright.

But for all the folks out there who write about what Harry Potter did between Potions and Herbology and then say, "Hey guys in this fanfic community, look at what I just wrote!" -- they aren't breaking any laws, aren't at risk of causing J.K. Rowling any trouble, and are most likely such bad writers to begin with that no one outside of their particular community will ever give a damn. But hey, they're having fun and expressing their fandom in their own way, and maybe practicing writing regularly like that will make them better writers who can actually string a coherent sentence together. Or not. Who cares?

Just because it exists doesn't mean you have to read it, or appreciate it. But I would encourage people to accept that it does exists and that people do derive a form of enjoyment from it, and as long as they aren't violating any laws by trying to profit from it, then leave them be.

[Noey]

Just because it exists doesn't mean you have to read it, or appreciate it. But I would encourage people to accept that it does exists and that people do derive a form of enjoyment from it, and as long as they aren't violating any laws by trying to profit from it, then leave them be.

I see what you're saying, and I agree with you to a point. I do the same RPG stuff you do, so believe me I get where you're coming from there. I think our opinions differ a bit in that I think there is some difference between RPG fic, which is based on a game that actively encourages people to make up their own stories in the game setting, and fanfic that's based on something that doesn't have a RPG. For example, a Dresden Files RPG group might publish their stories in a LiveJournal community for fun and amusement, and I don't think that Evil Hat would have a problem with that as long as game mechanics aren't published. That's what the game system is there for, after all. A series of Codex Alera stories, however, would be different because it's not meant to be used the same way a game system is meant to be used.

So, with that said, I do admit I play around in the sandboxes of others, RPG and otherwise, because it is very much fun. No argument there at all. The only thing is, I don't publish it because I don't want to cause problems for the authors. I have two major reasons. Of course if it's an RPG, the rules are bendable: 

I want to support my fandom. I don't read the work of other people or publish my own, because there's already works out there by the original author. That's the main focus, and that's how it should be.

Allowing fanfic makes it okay for others to make this particular work their own. If the author leaves it alone, then when he does need to defend his copyright in court the fact that he didn't zealously protect the intellectual copyright here makes it more difficult to justify to a judge the defense of intellectual copyright there. It's already hard enough to defend copyright without leaving any room for weakness in the argument.

I'm not calling fanfic writers bad people, and I'm not saying they can't be as creative or insightful as any other writer when the talent is there. I just think that we need to keep a sense of perspective and remember, it's not ours. We can talk about it, obsess over it, create multiple threads, dream up alternate stories, and discuss the villain's hair color at length but at the end of the day it belongs to the original person who thought of it, put in the massive hours of work to bring it to the public, and deserves the recognition.

In other news, run-on sentences are my bestest of friends. 

[Matrix Refugee (formerly Morraeon)]

If I remember correctly, Japan is as fanfic-friendly as you can get. There's a whole slew of manga artists/authors there who got started in the craft by writing fan-manga (called doujinshi, I think) based off other people's work. I know of a few people who avoid the whole question of copyright infringement by writing fanfic based only on stuff created in Japan.

[Yeratel]

Sorry for sounding ignorant, but what is slash?

It's homosexual porn in fan fiction. It's called that because fans use a forward slash symbol "/" to denote the relationship, like Kirk/Spock, instead of an ampersand symbol denoting conventional relationships, like Aragorn & Arwen. 

[meg_evonne]

Okay,thanks Yeratel for that edit clarification.  I will now be worrying about my over useage of forward slash when compiling names......   brain bleach please....

[cephis]

How I got started on this train of thought that kicked off this thread was a thought.  What if Bob gave Molly training?  Knowing what we know about Bob is goes in to speculation, if we stay true to the universe as we know it, Harry would feel it was "hammer time" after any interlude that I would of descibed.  I would not want Bob's skull broken open like a pinata, even in my imagination.  Any aside like that would change the flow of the story.  if there were some fanfic about what Harry Potter wedding was like, thats o.k.  That story is as done as it is ever to get and I like to muse about what could of happened.  It's sort of like those books by Turtledove, one twist.  I think those are ok as long as you note all the differnces that the twist makes.

[Antimatter Girl]

I'm not calling fanfic writers bad people, and I'm not saying they can't be as creative or insightful as any other writer when the talent is there. I just think that we need to keep a sense of perspective and remember, it's not ours. We can talk about it, obsess over it, create multiple threads, dream up alternate stories, and discuss the villain's hair color at length but at the end of the day it belongs to the original person who thought of it, put in the massive hours of work to bring it to the public, and deserves the recognition.

Ah, I think this here is the crux of our differing opinions. I honestly do not think that fanfic writers intend to do anything that compromises the original content. In fact, I believe that most fanfic writers think that they are contributing to, or supplementing, the existing content, and all praise for the original creator, be it Jim Butcher, Gene Roddenberry, J.K. Rowling, or whoever. Those that do somehow begin to think that they are surpassing or supplanting the original work, other than being guilty of extreme hubris and delusions of grandeur, are still just writing into the ether, with little to no chance of being taken seriously or somehow diluting the original work -- which, I would like to point out, is an issue with trademark law, not copyright law*. As long as the author takes the proper precautions, like Jim has done, then I don't think there is any legal issue with the proliferation of not-for-profit fanfiction.

Now, let me throw a monkey wrench into this and posit that the fanfic communities themselves are on significantly shakier legal ground, especially if their websites and/or magazines generate any ad revenue. Or do these communities fall under the Zeran v. AOL exception, where the provider is not directly responsible for the content that its members post?

P.S.  Do not fear long sentences! As long as they are grammatically coherent, they are not run on sentences.

*Okay, I did some more digging on Fair Use and copyright infringement, and there is a dilution-like test in the Fair Use exception. However, this works in favor of fanfic authors, because it must be shown that the work in question substantially detracts from the author's ability to sell his or her work, and it can reasonably be argued that fanfic works to expand the author's fanbase, like free advertising. This gets thrown out the window if the work in question is a source of revenue for the fanfic writer, because whatever revenue the fanfic generates detracts from the author's potential take of the fanbase's money.

[Matrix Refugee (formerly Morraeon)]

*Okay, I did some more digging on Fair Use and copyright infringement, and there is a dilution-like test in the Fair Use exception. However, this works in favor of fanfic authors, because it must be shown that the work in question substantially detracts from the author's ability to sell his or her work, and it can reasonably be argued that fanfic works to expand the author's fanbase, like free advertising. This gets thrown out the window if the work in question is a source of revenue for the fanfic writer, because whatever revenue the fanfic generates detracts from the author's potential take of the fanbase's money.

Mmm. Case in point the crazy woman who wrote a novel-length Star Wars fic, then had it printed in book form and was selling it on Amazon.com until George Lucas's lawyers went after her with a cease and desist order.

[Antimatter Girl]

Mmm. Case in point the crazy woman who wrote a novel-length Star Wars fic, then had it printed in book form and was selling it on Amazon.com until George Lucas's lawyers went after her with a cease and desist order.

Precisely. That's just plain flippin' stupid. But, like I said. Hubris and delusions of grandeur. 

[MonaLS]

It's homosexual porn in fan fiction. It's called that because fans use a forward slash symbol "/" to denote the relationship, like Kirk/Spock, instead of an ampersand symbol denoting conventional relationships, like Aragorn & Arwen. 

I had no idea, thanks for the clarification.

[trboturtle]

I think that using an authors universe but not their charecters is best for a jumping off point for a writer trying to find their own voice.  As long as the original author's characters are not in it I think of it as constructive non-publishable work of fiction.  If someone is writing a spin-off of anothers writers established work for pay it is simmiler to fan fic that they are trying to fit what they contribute into an exsiting framework and is not a one-off of what is the universe

The Battletech Universe is a Perfect example of a universe which don't need to use any established characters to write stories in. Based on a 20+ year old game, Battletech is space opera with multiple interstellar states, a solid and extensive universe background in place, and more conflict, both large and small that can be drawn on without effecting the major events going on around them. There are no "Evil" factions: all have some level of grey in them, each have heros and villians, strenghts and weaknesses. Almost any story can be told here, be it one of combat, or one of intreague, even to romance, if one wants to go thast route. I have written a bunch of stories set in this universe, and it's never old, becase I have a framework to work in, not a strightjacket.

Craig

[Soulless Mystic5523]

One thing I have to say in favor of fanfic, despite how bad it usually is, is that its a good way of learning to write better. It can be very difficult to come up with your own original ideas at times, and even if you do, you may not have the skills to execute said ideas. By starting with fanfic, you can find your own voice and seperate it from the original work, and then move on to your own works.

[Yeratel]

One thing I have to say in favor of fanfic, despite how bad it usually is, is that its a good way of learning to write better. It can be very difficult to come up with your own original ideas at times, and even if you do, you may not have the skills to execute said ideas. By starting with fanfic, you can find your own voice and seperate it from the original work, and then move on to your own works.

If you ever want to pass it around, or actually see it in print anywhere, though, it would be best to pick either historical characters and situations (e.g. Harry Turtledove's Guns of the South), or literary characters that have passed into the Public Domain, like Dracula (e.g. P.N. Elrod's Quincy Morris, Vampire).  There's an almost infinite number of characters and situations a writer can choose from, without stepping on another writer's copyright.

[Franzeska]

I think in either case, if it is sought out by the publisher and purchased, it ceases to be fanfic. This is obviously a fanfic writer's dream...

Most of the fanfic authors I know would be horrified if they were sought out by a publisher, even the ones who aspire to publish their own original fiction one day.  Personally, I like the unofficialness of fanfiction.  I'll happily read about a character dying or suddenly changing sex or orientation or secretly being evil or any number of other things I would absolutely hate to have happen in the movie/book/tv show/whatever itself.  Lots of people do use fanfiction as a writing exercise and a stepping stone to publication, but I think it's a mistake to evaluate it purely on that basis.  No one thinks it's weird to do karaoke with friends, even if most of you are horrible singers.  Why should all writing have any relationship at all to the publishing industry?  (Just for that, I know I'll get about 500 responses proclaiming the utter weirdness of karaoke.)

--Franzi