Fanfic richer or poorer?

[Tech L. Me]

Devil Advocate away, that's what this forum is here for

Yes, the problem is is that the good stuff is few and far between, you have to wade through alot of mediocre and worse to find those few authors who respect the original universe while taking it in a slightly different or new direction.

And you're right, that is not how I meant to come off when I said that in a few fandoms there are fic authors who write better than the original(s). What I meant to say is that there are a few fic authors whose versions of the story I prefer over the original. Don't get me wrong if I read fanfiction, chances are I loved the original material enough to see if there is anything else out there, but sometimes (and I can't help it) I prefer another person's interpretation over the original.

In the end, I probably should have phrased my original statement along the lines of "I do not mean any disrespect to anybody and while the original author is talented and creative in their own way, I prefer fic writer b's interpretations of the the characters. This does not mean that one is the better writer than the other, it's just a matter of personal opinion."

I know this isn't going to soothe any author's opinions, I'd be insulted as hell too if I was an author and somebody came up to me and said "So and so does a better job of writing your characters and universe than you"

Also, while I can't speak for everyone out there but most, if not all fanfiction writers have a folder of original stuff stashed away that they work when they have the chance and are trying to get published outside the internet.

[Shecky]

why did he write a SpiderMan fan fic story?

He didn't. He was contracted to write an authorized novel in the Spider-Man universe... legally an entirely different animal from fanfic. Fortunately, he was coincidentally a big fan of SM.

[Murphy's Stunt Double]

Ah, cool, thanks for putting that in, Shecky. I didn't realize he was contracted to do it. That's pretty cool!

Still, though if he'd had issues with fan fic the way was originally implied (Since corrected, *nods*), he might have said no on principle.

[KevinEvans]

Another thing to look at are the shared universes, I think the first big one was Thieves World tm Where a number of authors set out to tell stories in a mutually constructed universe. Among the rules was, you could use someones Else's character but not use them up. Lately came Eric Flint's 1632 universe, where when the fanfic started he read them and then opened a franchise where first an anthology and then the Grantville Gazettes came about. Stories have to meet standards and must be true to "Canon" However He pays 6 cents a word and the works are published as Ebooks and eventually hit paper (GG 1-4 are in paper and we are up to 16 released and some stories have been bought and scheduled up to edition 23) the GGs have been selling well enough to support them self's. (Baen is offering them via Webscriptions book sales)
Of note is the fact that that the various stories have turned in to almost four million words of paid fiction. And the shared author model has kept the universe fresh and open. (14 published in paper and another 16 electronic volumes of the GG) with another three novels contracted.

Just a thought,
Kevin

[Shecky]

Ah, cool, thanks for putting that in, Shecky. I didn't realize he was contracted to do it. That's pretty cool!

Still, though if he'd had issues with fan fic the way was originally implied (Since corrected, *nods*), he might have said no on principle.

He sorta did. From what I've gathered, he seems to like fanfic in general, but I'm sure he's been badgered by his agent and his publisher to stay away from it to avoid any potential lawsuit material. The thing about fanfic is that it can only be all-or-nothing in order not to be a problem - either permit it all and run with it, or completely divorce yourself from it. Anything between, unfortunately, opens you up to a world of legal juggling; business CYA, distasteful though it may be, is sometimes the only defense against that kind of you-gotta-stay-on-top-of-it limbo.

[LizW65]

He didn't. He was contracted to write an authorized novel in the Spider-Man universe... legally an entirely different animal from fanfic. Fortunately, he was coincidentally a big fan of SM.

So.... are authorized tie-in novels considered fanfic, or not?  I was counting all the published Star Trek fiction, e.g., as fanfic when I wrote my original post, but if it isn't, then I retract what I said.  I've never actually read any of the amateur stuff posted on the web.

[Shecky]

So.... are authorized tie-in novels considered fanfic, or not?  I was counting all the published Star Trek fiction, e.g., as fanfic when I wrote my original post, but if it isn't, then I retract what I said.  I've never actually read any of the amateur stuff posted on the web.

Amateur = fanfic; at least, that's the way I've always understood it. Otherwise, you get some of the actual Star Trek: TNG scripts classified as fanfic (people who've always loved the show and its universe getting to write something in it for the show) and suchlike, and that opens up a whole can of logic worms, making it difficult to distinguish between fanfic and official writing.

Basically, I don't think of it as fanfic if the writer works closely with the person/people in charge of the rights to that universe, both making sure that everything in the writing is "supposed" to be there. Really, it's just a special treat if the writer happens to have been a fan of that universe - and isn't that the best kind of work?

[Noey]

My opinion is that I don't consider authorized tie-in novels fanfic for a couple of reasons. Tie-in novels are contracted and paid for by the publisher, which gives them legal legitimacy. Also, the kinds of worlds with tie-in novels tend not to belong to one person's exclusive creative domain. Comic books, television shows and game settings, even if thought up by one person originally, usually have a team of writers working on it as is so contracting out to more writers isn't as unusual. You're not going to find tie-in novels with Dresden, Alera, etc. because the novels ARE the product being sold. In all cases, though, I don't consider it fanfic if it's put out by the publishers of the original source material with their stamp of approval on it.

Fanfic is fun for the fan, but the problem lies in fans taking material that belongs to someone else, and making it their own instead. When does it cease to be the author's baby, and start to be anyone's? That's the tricky question, and to avoid it I absolutely understand authors having to protect their authority over their work. That's why any fanfic'ish stuff I do, is kept entirely private between me and if applicable who I'm gaming with if it's being used as a setting. Plus, I never use someone else's characters. Maybe it's the gamer in me, but I feel that a person's characters are their own unique sliver of their own personality and creativity. That's all theirs, and I can't imagine taking over someone else's voice.

[cephis]

Personally, I was always a fan of The Destroyer novels; they are up to the high 130's.  The books after a while were Ghost Written by some more or less talented writers.  I would feel comfortable writing a fan fiction.
1. That the last 80 novels, with some exceptions, have been published fanfic.
2. The characters are static, they do not really change.
3. I may offer up any fanfic to other fans to point out any flaws. 
I admit the other part is that with the fact that there isn't as much fanfic out there for it means that most of the people that author the stuff are pretty good at it and the original author of the series will read the boards and sometimes even comment favorably on their efforts.  As an aside, I would love someone good to ultimatize that franchise; it's been 40 years for God's sake!

[Noey]

Again, though, is it really fanfic if it's published? I think we need to define what exactly we're talking about when we say fanfic. I consider fanfic to be something written as a hobby by a fan of a particular fictional universe. It can incorporate the original characters, or it can use the fanfic author's own imaginary people and use the setting only. I think in either case, if it is sought out by the publisher and purchased, it ceases to be fanfic. This is obviously a fanfic writer's dream, but I think 99.99999% of the time it'll never happen. There's money to be made off intellectual property, and therefore it has to be protected, no matter how complimentary and awesome it is to see how much a person's work has touched the lives of others and inspired their own creativity. It all comes down to the fact that a writer has to eat, and this is how they do it.

[cephis]

I think that using an authors universe but not their charecters is best for a jumping off point for a writer trying to find their own voice.  As long as the original author's characters are not in it I think of it as constructive non-publishable work of fiction.  If someone is writing a spin-off of anothers writers established work for pay it is simmiler to fan fic that they are trying to fit what they contribute into an exsiting framework and is not a one-off of what is the universe

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Anyway, the subject of it is that EVERYTHING written currently is plagiarized from somewhere else. There's nothing original under the sun, my friend.

I would say that this is provably false by looking at, say, Greg Egan, Ted Chiang, or Peter Watts, who are telling shapes of stories that are uniquely new built around ideas that are uniquely new. [ Though Watts less of the time than the other two. ] Unless you want to use a definition such as "This story has people in it" as plagiarising the idea of "people", which strikes me as meaningless.

Who owns the copyright to a plotline? The one who wrote it down first, NOT the one who thought it up first.

There is no copyright to a plotline, just to a specific instance of that plotline. 

There are arguments, for example, that all stories have one of three fundamental plots.  I think that's rubbish, myself, because even if it were true, that is defining your fundamental plots so broadly that they become essentially meaningless and therefore useless as concepts.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Personally, I was always a fan of The Destroyer novels; they are up to the high 130's.  The books after a while were Ghost Written by some more or less talented writers.  I would feel comfortable writing a fan fiction.
1. That the last 80 novels, with some exceptions, have been published fanfic.
2. The characters are static, they do not really change.

The particular genius of the better Destroyer novels is, that, in the way that really good SF builds up a world by implications of little clues and how they fit together rather than by stopping to lecture you, some of the contracted later Destroyer novels are using that technique to build characterisation in.

[Noey]

There is no copyright to

There is no copyright to a plotline, just to a specific instance of that plotline.

Right, copyright belongs to specific ideas. A boy has an adventure before learning he's a prince. That's not something you can hold up in copyright court. It's pretty much a classic plot at this point in literature. It's the more specific you get. If I wrote a story like that, and named the boy Tavi, and had everyone controlling "elementals" as part of their magic, then it'd be on the squiffy side of copyright because I took a name, and an extremely similar story component to Jim's unique idea. In the case of fanfic, no one's even pretending that it's their original recipe. It's the same thing behind the lawsuit a long time ago where White Wolf Games sued the makers of the Underworld movie because of similarities to their game. One of the strongest arguments was the use of the specific term "abomination", a game term, used in the same way in the movie as it is in the game. They very well could have lost the case, but, they also have it on record that they attempted to protect their copyright so it's just as strong for next time.

[Murphy's Stunt Double]

Unless you want to use a definition such as "This story has people in it" as plagiarising the idea of "people", which strikes me as meaningless.

Which I think was the point... the concept of plagiarism can be stretched to an absolute absurd degree.

There is no copyright to a plotline, just to a specific instance of that plotline. 

Perhaps I used the word 'plotline' inappropriately, I meant to refer to the actual created story, which in fact may take many different books to play out.

And again, Noey, Copyright doesn't belong to ideas at all. Only to physical results of those ideas. What is actually written down.

Almost every time a big block buster film comes out, we're likely to see a couple of mock-offs hit the theaters soon after... or in some cases, just before, depending on how long it takes the big studios to get through production. Why? Because you can't sue for copyright infringement and WIN if someone takes your ideas, changes enough elements to make it reasonably dissimilar, and gets to the finish line ahead of you. It's a screenwriters worst nightmare.