Fanfic richer or poorer?

[cephis]

I am well aware that fanfic is frowned upon by mr. Butcher on this site, as it is a contractual oblegation.  I started thinking of fanfic in general
1. do you think fanfic adds depth to a universe, or do you think that the differing styles detract from the expeirance?
2.  why is there so much slash ?
Discuss.

[Matrix Refugee (formerly Morraeon)]

1. I think good quality writing helps enhance the universe/mythos of a certain series, etc. But bad writing, while it doesn't detract from it, can make me embarassed to be fond of the same thing as the author of said bad writing, and at times, I wonder if the person read/watched the same thing that I did.

2. I'm not going to answer this one, since I'm not the most fond of slash and I tend to get suspicious of the fankiddies that see subtext where I don't.

[LizW65]

My personal attitude is "Why write about someone else's characters and universe when it's so much more rewarding to create you own?" However, I think fanfic may be useful practice for emerging writers as well as a form of wish-fulfillment fantasy for those who can never get enough of their favorite characters.

 As to whether it adds depth to a universe, yes, if it expands on it in ways that are creative and exciting.  I've read a few pretty good Star Trek novels, for instance, and Alan Gordon's Fool's Guild series, which I love, is, technically, Shakespeare fanfic.

I've no idea about the slash.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I think fanfic is morally acceptable only if
a) the author has given permission (some specific Good Omens fanfic writers)
b) the author is dead
c) it's a shared creative universe to begin with (DC comics for example)

In general, I think 99.9% of it is not a net win.  I can count the counterexamples I have seen on the fingers of one hand with three fingers left over.

Why so much slash ?  I think it's a combination of a) being able to write about relationships which one can idealise without having to worry about social power dynamics between women and men and b) some sort of female equivalent, most slash writers being female, of the HotBiBabe cliche in porn aimed at a male audience, translated into a key of romance.

[cephis]

1. I think good quality writing helps enhance the universe/mythos of a certain series, etc. But bad writing, while it doesn't detract from it, can make me embarassed to be fond of the same thing as the author of said bad writing, and at times, I wonder if the person read/watched the same thing that I did.

The good writing is the important part and most of the time, they change the style entirely, no attempt to try to incorperate the setting into the story.  it's like [Insert Name] walked through the do and saw [Insert Name] with [Insert Name].

2. I'm not going to answer this one, since I'm not the most fond of slash and I tend to get suspicious of the fankiddies that see subtext where I don't.

The inexplicable part is that most of that stuff is written by little girls, sorry, women.  I could understand if it was greared towards gay men, but there isn't enough sex to satify that need<sigh> I don't know

[Master_AI]

Well, I don't think people who write fanfiction would be able to do the Dresden Files justice. They wouldn't be able to catch that special something that Jim produces in the Dresden Files. This is due to in part the writing skills that some fanfiction writers have not being able to compete with Jim's skills.

[Murphy's Stunt Double]

I didn't realize Mr. Butcher felt that way at all, but perhaps I'm wrong... still, if he does, why did he write a SpiderMan fan fic story?

I thought he has a contractual obligation to stay away from fan fic of his work, so as not to poison the well, so to speak. If a fan comes up with a plot he already intended to use and he sees it before writing it, it could cause problems with copyright infringement.

Me, I run a fan fic RPG site of Jim's world, though I've never written one of his characters. I don't feel I could do it justice. That said, writing consistently on that site has done wonders for my ability to build characters and plot and has really helped my writing.

[cephis]

I didn't realize Mr. Butcher felt that way at all, but perhaps I'm wrong... still, if he does, why did he write a SpiderMan fan fic story?

I thought he has a contractual obligation to stay away from fan fic of his work, so as not to poison the well, so to speak. If a fan comes up with a plot he already intended to use and he sees it before writing it, it could cause problems with copyright infringement.

Me, I run a fan fic RPG site of Jim's world, though I've never written one of his characters. I don't feel I could do it justice. That said, writing consistently on that site has done wonders for my ability to build characters and plot and has really helped my writing.

Really?  I thought that from the way Pricille comes down like Ms. Gard that Jim was going to kick the bejusus out of us (I'm not sure about the rest of you but, I'm pretty sure that Jim could whipe the floor with me.) 

[Murphy's Stunt Double]

Nah - in fact, if memory serves, it was from one of Priscellie's posts I read about the contractual issues he tries to avoid by staying away from the fan fic sites.

[cephis]

Edited and corrected, thanks MSD!:)
Now, Proceed with the discussion please.

[rinascita]

According to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, to "plagiarize" means
to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own
to use (another's production) without crediting the source
to commit literary theft
to present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source.


While fan fiction may not be totally thought of as plagiarism......the ideas behind the character's personalities, settings, etc.
I personally don't enjoy fan fiction because I want to know the original author's true vision of the story.

[Noey]

It's fun to play in someone else's playground, which is why for my game I tend use skew fanfic'ish and send our characters to different worlds, just so they can experience new and varied flavors of, 'What the hell's going on now?!?' Still, that's just me having fun. I don't tend to read a lot of fanfic, because I like the author's original work. No one wants to hear my interpretation of Harry Dresden. That's why Jim Butcher deservedly gets the bucks, you know? He's the well, and my Parfums De Couer knockoff version can't compare. I don't care how good a fanfic writer is, it'll never be the original. Gaming in an author's setting is one thing. Writing about it is something completely different.

As for copyright, from what I understand it's not only fear of tainting the well, but also needing to keep the copyright strong. If I know my law right, then say Jim sees a really good Codex Alera fic and lets it go. Then, another author builds on that fic. Then, someone does an Alera/Dresden crossover. Years go by, and suddenly someone's publishing an anthology of all these stories. Well, he can't let them make money off of what is his intellectual property. His case in court will be weakened by the fact that he let it go for so long. Dresden and Alera are his babies. He's gotta protect 'em, even from the nice aunts who only wanna pinch their cheeks a little.

[Tech L. Me]

If this is against the rules mods feel free to delete my post if I don't respond and I apologize for any trouble I might have caused.


A really well written fanfiction can add to the whole experience of reading a book, watching a movie or a tv show. They can offer insights into the character that you never thought of, explore "what if" situations, or even correct a "wrong" that you feel the original author(s) have committed***. On the flip side there are some truly horrible and ghastly stuff out there that can make you rip your eyes out and wonder if they had even read/watched the same stuff that you had before reaching for the brain bleach.

I don't blame some authors one bit for wanting to put a lid on their sandbox. A little disappointed sure, but I understand their feelings wholeheartedly. I can't claim to imagine what an author or an actor would feel like if they ever came across some of the schlop out there. They spend all this time and effort creating a story to tell to the masses and then some fans come around and mess around with your creations until they are mere shadows of your efforts.

Although as much as I hate to admit it, there are some fandoms where the fanfiction is even better than the original work, I won't implicate the author(s) (original and fan) involved because I don't want to stir up a whole can of worms.

At this time I would also like to point out that technically, fanfiction has been around as long as the first oral stories. One person would make up a story, a person who had overheard it would pass it on to others while adding a few embellishments of their own. It was expanded on throughout the ages until you reach the modern fandom of zines, internet and mailing lists. For more information you can go here: http://www.trickster.org/symposium/symp173.htm

Finally, I have no idea about the slash thing, I wish I did, but I don't.


***Not to say that anything that a creator imagines in their own universe is wrong, it is their story, their characters and their plots after all. It is sometimes though that you wish a creator hadn't done what they did in a book, movie or tv show.


Edit: After reading Noey's post I would also like to point out that I have no respect for people who profit off of unauthorized fanfiction. Like she said people should not make money off of what is their intellectual property. They put in all of the work creating these wonderful universes and they should receive all of the credit and profit for it.

[Murphy's Stunt Double]

According to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, to "plagiarize" means
to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own
to use (another's production) without crediting the source
to commit literary theft
to present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source.


While fan fiction may not be totally thought of as plagiarism......the ideas behind the character's personalities, settings, etc.

Heh - There's a really great blog on this subject, I can't remember where I saw it, but I think there's a link to it around here somewhere. Anyway, the subject of it is that EVERYTHING written currently is plagiarized from somewhere else. There's nothing original under the sun, my friend. Most, if not all, Marketable plots these days are plagiarised from Shakespeare, and he plagiarised from the writers that went before him. One can even get so technical as to say any written work that uses words found in any dictionary is, by definition, plagiarised. The very words themselves are someone else's product.

So, we have to look to copyright law for an actual ability to redress plagiarism. And in copyright law, only physical end result can be copyrighted. Concepts and ideas, cannot. Hence the stickiness for current successful authors who inspire fan fic. Who owns the copyright to a plotline? The one who wrote it down first, NOT the one who thought it up first.

[Noey]

Concepts and ideas, cannot. Hence the stickiness for current successful authors who inspire fan fic. Who owns the copyright to a plotline? The one who wrote it down first, NOT the one who thought it up first.

*nods* It makes sense, and explains why the talkers (like MUDS, without the killin' stuff), that I've played on got cease and desist letters from White Wolf over the help files regarding rules. The help files for descriptions of powers and other background stuff was fine, but the actual mechanics of the game had to be taken down. I imagine it's because that's easier to defend in court. It's a fine line to walk.

Menolly, you're right that it can add to an experience, but I think the problem is that good fic is few and far between. It gets especially tough for an author to be told, you're doing it wrong. I can take your ideas and do it way better, even though you're the published author. I know that's not how you meant to come across, but I'm looking at it from the devil's advocate side, and I think it's very easy for a fanfic writer to come across that way. Honestly, if a fic writer is talented enough to beat the original author in the author's own imaginary playground, why isn't that person writing their own stuff? Use the talent for something that person can really be recognized for.

I have a theory on slash, and it mostly revolves around Lisa Simpson's Non-Threatening Male Weekly magazine.