Choices

[cander891]

Recently I have been thinking a lot about Mirror Mirror, specifically what choices Harry could change that would have a profound ripple effect to himself and the series. Therefore, I started a reread with that specific question in mind.

Now -- I think that realistically, this change has to happen either before Storm Front OR up to the end of Grave Peril. I don't think it can go any deeper in the series to be effective.

With that said, thus far I have reread SF and FM and here is what I have so far:

Storm Front

- Beginning of book, Harry takes Marcone's offer to sit out the investigation.
- End of book, Harry choses to use the Dark Energy at the Sell's lake house to take out Viktor (This I believe would lead to him also taking out Morgan).
Fool Moon
- Early in the book, Harry choses to work for Marcone.
- Middle of book, Harry takes Chauncey's offer.
- End of book, Harry succumbs and continues to use the Wolf Belt

I will be moving to Grave Peril later and will add. In the meantime, feel free to opine. I believe this may have been a topic years ago, but I wanted to take a new look at it.

[peterwiggin94]

Assuming Jim hasn't changed his mind, he's told us what the big choice was. It's at the end of Grave Peril when Harry goes to save Susan. Our Harry summons a bunch of vengeful ghosts to kill the vampires when he could have absorbed their power and lashed out. The other Harry does the later.

[cander891]

Assuming Jim hasn't changed his mind, he's told us what the big choice was. It's at the end of Grave Peril when Harry goes to save Susan. Our Harry summons a bunch of vengeful ghosts to kill the vampires when he could have absorbed their power and lashed out. The other Harry does the later.

Was that a word of Jim? I missed that then. I knew the choice in GP would make my list and was the most likely. But I didn't know Jim actually confirmed it.

[Mira]

Assuming Jim hasn't changed his mind, he's told us what the big choice was. It's at the end of Grave Peril when Harry goes to save Susan. Our Harry summons a bunch of vengeful ghosts to kill the vampires when he could have absorbed their power and lashed out. The other Harry does the later.

 I agree but see it a bit differently, 1] Agreed Harry chooses not to save Susan.. A bunch of possible ripples emanate from that.
A] Bianca lives, and whatever her plans were at the party when she was handing out come into play.  One being the Reds do not go to war prematurely with the White Council, lots of ripples emanate from that.. B] Susan ends up either dead or fully turned.. Obvious one, little Maggie is never conceived.. So for starters Harry then becomes the youngest in Eb's line to be sacrificed and Harry has no way to reverse the generational spell because he has no youngest Red Court Vampire to kill.. The Red Court stays fully in power, thus the Fomor are held in check... Or are they?  Harry neither becomes Winter Knight nor Warden of Demonreach.. Harry doesn't attempt suicide and have his soul walk about.   The Weapons in the Vault cannot be retrieved by Harry.  The Battle of Chicago is lost and the Titian cannot be stopped... There is a lot more but you get the point..

[g33k]

Assuming Jim hasn't changed his mind, he's told us what the big choice was. It's at the end of Grave Peril when Harry goes to save Susan. Our Harry summons a bunch of vengeful ghosts to kill the vampires when he could have absorbed their power and lashed out. The other Harry does the later.

Do you have a source or cite for that?
Because while Jim told us happens "at the end of Grave Peril," the details of what that choice is (and how close to "the end" is close-enough to count) are oft-debated; but that one looks frankly-improbable.

Here's the only WoJ I know of:

Jim:  It’s going to be a different character because it’s going to be Dresden as he would have been if he made one choice differently, and the fallout from that effect on his life...
In this case it will be the big decision at the end of Grave Peril.

Exactly which decision is "the big decision" has AFAIK never been disclosed.  As I say, I'm happy to be shown to be mistaken, if you've got a WoJ citation!

Why do I find your "Harry absorbs the ghosts' power" proposal so improbable?  Because that would be Harry performing a mini-Darkhallow; just pulling the concept and the methods out of his hat (a hat, let it be noted, that Harry does not wear!) in the spur of the moment (and getting it right!) based on essentially zero experience with necromancy.  Later, we see how a pile of very-experienced professional necromancers hadn't been able to figure it out, all vying for the lost Word of Kemmler.  Harry is already too much of a Special Snowflake character; if he was also out-necromancing the professional necromancers, I'd find that far too OTT (just doing a mass-summons that way is already kind of a Big Deal).

My own main theory is that "the choice" was when Harry decided to let Susan walk away, at the very end of the book.  He made that choice out of selfless love for Susan, and as we've seen Love is a Big Freaking Deal in the Dresdenverse.  Had he instead convinced her to say -- applied emotional pressure or coercion -- out of his own selfishness and fear, the outcome could have been very different indeed.

My secondary theory is much darker... when Harry faced-off against Bianca, she offered him a choice:  to let her have Susan (already half-turned) as "recompense" for how Harry "took away" her own preferred pet, and Bianca would consider the matter settled.  Maybe Mirror!Harry accepted that choice.  I don't like it as well, but that's my emotional reaction; IMO there's several ancillary details that line up very nicely, almost looking like Jim intentionally wrote-in foreshadowing elements.
 

[EBRIEN]

If we consider Harry as a decent person even in the Mirror universe and makes a decision that, in effect, is decent (but questionable--ie. Molly helping her friends), then maybe something subtle becomes much more---adding up to him taking up the coin of Lashiel.

I'm most curious about how we'll find him in Mirror Mirror. Is he under the radar or out and hello on wheels, so to speak.

B

[g33k]

If we consider Harry as a decent person even in the Mirror universe and makes a decision that, in effect, is decent (but questionable--ie. Molly helping her friends), then maybe something subtle becomes much more---adding up to him taking up the coin of Lashiel.

I'm most curious about how we'll find him in Mirror Mirror. Is he under the radar or out and hello on wheels, so to speak. 

Mirror!Harry is not a decent person any longer, no; he has gone full-on villain.  Not sure if he's just gone overboard on the "fighting the good fight" theme, embracing "acceptable losses" in collateral damage, or if  he's actually working towards objectively bad ends.

I'm pretty sure there is WoJ specifying that one  Mirror!Harry's  closest allies is (brace yourself) ... Mavra.  And he has discovered how to contact/summon other  Alt!Harry's  from other universes, and has been substituting them in for himself, when he's deeply trapped... letting those Harry's die in his place.

His foes keep thinking they've "killed Harry Dresden" because they have... just not their Harry Dresden, the one native to their own universe, who keeps slipping out the side door while the summoned Harry dies.

[Mira]

Mirror!Harry is not a decent person any longer, no; he has gone full-on villain.  Not sure if he's just gone overboard on the "fighting the good fight" theme, embracing "acceptable losses" in collateral damage, or if  he's actually working towards objectively bad ends.

Do we know that for sure, or assume that?  When you consider the original Trek story which supposedly this is the inspiration for Jim's story, we see what we think is "evil Jim Kirk" verses the good Kirk of our world.. However taken in the context of his universe, "evil Kirk" really isn't at all, because everyone with the exception of the Spock of that parallel universe is like that.  In other words, "evil Kirk" is the norm for his world and because he is every bit as clever and resourceful as our Kirk he has used the tools and morals of his world to get to the top.  We and our Kirk may have seen him as evil but who knows, our Kirk may have screwed up big time by telling that Spock to assassinate the "evil Kirk" when he returns and change their universe.  He also added that this Spock had the same values as his Spock of his universe... Maybe, or because both Spocks had logic in common Kirk just made the assumption that their values were the same.  When you think of it, it was logical for the other universe Spock to want the Captain Kirk of his universe back to set things right again... In other words our Harry may see that Harry as evil, but he will have to be seen in the context of the world that he lives in.. In the "evil Harry's" world, Murphy may be a corrupt cop with no morals at all and Molly might be entering a convent to become a nun! Then what?  If our Harry screws with those norms, he may have screwed up more than he fixes in doing that.. Which I might add maybe the point of the story and why time travel is one of the forbidden Laws of Magic. 

[peterwiggin94]

@g33k,

While I may have misremembered (I can't find the specific WOJ), I don't think it's improbable that Harry would have been able to do a mini-Darkhallow. I think that Harry's been tempted to do something like that several times from the very beginning. I'll add a description of the very first time that this has happened in the end of Storm Front below here. For context, Harry has just driven up to Victor's house and he's thinking about his past brush with Dark Magic, the suspicions he's gotten from the White Council, and how slighted he feels. 

[Harry] could kill the Shadowman, now, before he knew I was here. I could call down fury and flame on the house and kill everyone in it, not leave one stone upon another. I could reach out and embrace the dark energy he had gathered in this place, draw it in and use it for whatever I wanted, and the consequences be damned.

When I look at the part that I italicized for emphasis, Harry is pretty clearly thinking about a Darkhallow-type action. While he isn't discussing absorbing the power of ghosts permanently, he is pretty clearly discussing using the dark emotional energy to power a destructive spell. Harry has also made it clear at other points in the series that doing things like this affects the practitioner. I think that this is what evil Harry did in the end of Grave Peril. Evil Harry absorbed the emotional energy of Bianca's building then lashed out at Bianca with it. Our Harry summoned ghosts then pointed them at Bianca. My memory isn't perfect though so I might have messed something up.

[Mira]

When I look at the part that I italicized for emphasis, Harry is pretty clearly thinking about a Darkhallow-type action. While he isn't discussing absorbing the power of ghosts permanently, he is pretty clearly discussing using the dark emotional energy to power a destructive spell. Harry has also made it clear at other points in the series that doing things like this affects the practitioner. I think that this is what evil Harry did in the end of Grave Peril. Evil Harry absorbed the emotional energy of Bianca's building then lashed out at Bianca with it. Our Harry summoned ghosts then pointed them at Bianca. My memory isn't perfect though so I might have messed something up.

I believe you got it right as far as I remember and what I thought reading that passage in Grave Peril.  Yes, Harry did summon and point the ghosts at Bianca, however doing more than that wasn't needed because the ghosts were Bianca's victims and they wanted revenge. 

Harry did have dark thoughts when he drove up to Victor's house, using dark magic would have been the easiest way to deal with it. 
But then possibly it was his mother's spirit intervened, he felt pressure on the pendent she had left for him and felt a slim hand on his, then he thought again..

page 278 Storm Front

I took deep breaths, struggling to see clear of the anger, the hate, the deep lust that burned within me for vengeance and
retribution, that wasn't what magic was for.

Harry has usually thought things through in that manner, even in Changes when he thinks of the three options open to him to save little Maggie, accepting the coin, Darkhallow, or Winter Knight, he picks the least bad of the bad options.

While I may have misremembered (I can't find the specific WOJ), I don't think it's improbable that Harry would have been able to do a mini-Darkhallow. I think that Harry's been tempted to do something like that several times from the very beginning. I'll add a description of the very first time that this has happened in the end of Storm Front below here. For context, Harry has just driven up to Victor's house and he's thinking about his past brush with Dark Magic, the suspicions he's gotten from the White Council, and how slighted he feels.

Except until he met Cowl and got and read Kemmler's book, I don't think while he might have known what Darkhallow was, I don't think he had much of an idea of how to do it. 

[peterwiggin94]

I think that the Darkhallow was similar to normal energy absorption but scaled up drastically and improved somehow. We've seen Harry do energy absorption a lot including the fight in the aquarium in Small Favor. Based on that fight, the typical way to do it has limits because it literally raised Harry's body temperature. The Darkhallow must have some type of containment mechanism to handle the extra energy. Maybe it's a combination of the ascension spell in "Welcome to the Jungle" along with the normal energy absorption?

Either way, I suspect that what Harry was tempted to do in Storm Front, and what Evil Harry did in Grave Peril, would be a scaled down version of the Darkhallow. It would have just been sucking the ambient emotional energy of a dark place to do destructive things. That would have in turn affected Harry in a bunch of different ways.

[g33k]

Do we know that for sure, or assume that? ...

We don't exactly know how far Mirror!Harry has stepped over that line.  WE do know he's a much darker character than Prime!Harry.

WoJ has stated he's allied with Mavra, and has taken (when cornered) to summoning Alt!Harry's to die in his place; that looks like pretty far over the line, to me.

... When you consider the original Trek story which supposedly this is the inspiration for Jim's story, we see what we think is "evil Jim Kirk" verses the good Kirk of our world.. However taken in the context of his universe, "evil Kirk" really isn't at all ...

I'm not much for moral relativism.
Sure, some things are relative.  But some other things are outright evil, and not relative at all.  Mirror!Kirk is evil.

Now, "it's not his fault" & all that -- he's evil because he was raised in that setting, where kindness was seen as weakness (& exploited as such).  But being a victim of evil doesn't mean he didn't become evil as a nearly-inevitable result of being informed by that setting.  It's exactly similar to how child-abuse is always evil, even when we learn that the abuser turned out that way because they themselves were abused as a child.

... because everyone with the exception of the Spock of that parallel universe is like that ...

I always suspected that Spock mirrored most Vulcans:  being ruthlessly logical is the logical Vulcan consequence of being embedded in (literally) an Evil Empire.  But the Mirror!Vulcan history was presumably similar to the Prime!Vulcan history (i.e. driven by tradition & logic) up until Vulcan/Terran "first contact," and they adapted (in their logical way) to ruthlessly match the the circumstances they found themselves in.

... In the "evil Harry's" world, Murphy may be a corrupt cop with no morals at all and Molly might be entering a convent to become a nun! Then what? ...

Remember, though:  there was no alt!universe or branching up until Harry's "choice" at the end of Grave Peril.  There was only a single timeline up until that divergence.  The rest of the universe isn't just up for grabs, with random alterations; the changes rippled outward, as alternative consequences resulting from Harry's alternative choice.

I don't think we have any reason to think Murphy would have become corrupt / immoral.  Defeated, maybe; hopeless, and "just getting by," rather than crusading for what's right.  What is Murphy (and SI) like, without having been able to rely upon Dresden?  Less clued-in, less-successful; but what else?

This, I think, is going to be the core of Mirror,Mirror:  exploring the consequences of Harry's choice.  Even more than the ST:TOS episode Mirror,Mirror, I think Jim's going to write an alt for Harry's own life:  this is going to be Dresden's It's a Wonderful Life (1946 with Jimmy Stewart).  But also, of course, more of Jim's primary job:  tormenting Harry.

You ask after Molly, and I think it's pertinent.  In fact, I think we'll be revisiting most/all of Harry!Prime's "Scooby Gang" (Michael & Thomas & Butters & Bob & the Alphas &c), and the followups/consequences of his prior Casefiles & how Mirror!Harry handled them differently from how Prime!Harry did.  We may even see the return of Little Chicago!      I'm unclear about the particulars of any of these, of course... it depends how Jim writes the alt!timeline.  Speculating specifically about Molly (and Michael), though:  Harry has become a serial murderer & Blampire-ally; I don't think Michael is his friend, or ally, or trusts him in any way.  So, Molly hasn't idolized him:  she hasn't seen him as a mysterious badass, fighting monsters (alongside the father she adored).  Presumably, Mirror!Molly began developing powers just as Prime!Molly did; but without Harry's example perhaps she turned more towards her parents & they helped her tamp them down?  But I suspect empowered Molly is too narratively-useful to Jim, so we'll see some sort of Magical Molly (unless we learn that she got executed by the Wardens -- very much a torment-for-Harry element!).

I suspect Prime!Molly was guided by Lea or Mab toward her Black Magic path, specifically to use Molly to entangle Dresden; but without the Michael/Harry alliance that entanglement wouldn't happen; so no Winter shoving Molly down the left-hand-path.

In fact... I suspect Harry's "choice" in GP was basically one made from being scared, hopeless.  From giving up, instead of fighting-against-all-odds.  I'm not at all sure Mirror!Mab would even want this weaker Mirror!Harry as WK.

[g33k]

I think that the Darkhallow was similar to normal energy absorption but scaled up drastically and improved somehow. We've seen Harry do energy absorption a lot including the fight in the aquarium in Small Favor. Based on that fight, the typical way to do it has limits because it literally raised Harry's body temperature. The Darkhallow must have some type of containment mechanism to handle the extra energy. Maybe it's a combination of the ascension spell in "Welcome to the Jungle" along with the normal energy absorption? ...

I'm almost certain I recall a WoJ saying that the hag's rite in "WttJ" was a smaller and/or more-primitive spell, but largely along the same lines as Kemmler's "Darkhallow" rite.

The Darkhallow was specifically ghost-eating.  It used necromantic methods unknown to (pre-Word of Kemmler) Harry:  if Harry could just siphon ghosts to power-up whenever he wanted, those foes (such as Agatha Hagglethorn & the Nightmare) would have been trivially handled.

The other examples are stuff Harry already knows about, drawing upon raw "magical energy" from the environment, as he often does for magic.

In Storm Front, he had found a huge supply of magic summoned by Victor Sells, but realized it was "tainted" -- dark, violent, corrupt -- because of how it was raised.  This ambient magic was influencing him to act in dark, violent, corrupt ways; but he was able to resist.

[Mira]

Sure, some things are relative.  But some other things are outright evil, and not relative at all.  Mirror!Kirk is evil.

But so was EVERYONE else in that universe, by our standards! By their standards our universe is populated by weak fools.  As for the two Spocks, they had Vulcan logic in common, it was logical to restore what was natural for for universes.. And for the record, deciding what is evil and what isn't is a moral judgement.

I don't think we have any reason to think Murphy would have become corrupt / immoral.  Defeated, maybe; hopeless, and "just getting by," rather than crusading for what's right.  What is Murphy (and SI) like, without having been able to rely upon Dresden?  Less clued-in, less-successful; but what else?

And why would you think that?  Unless Murphy is the Spock of the story, hell yeah she could be corrupt simply because she will be a product of and reflect the values of the universe she is living in.  Heck she still could be the Spock of the story and be totally corrupt.. That also might be acceptable in the universe she is living in. Actually might make for a much better story that evil Harry, many already feel that Harry dances on that tightrope anyway.. However many cannot conceive of a corrupt Murphy, but a Chicago cop?  Especially in a certain era? Not a stretch at all, and think of the shock that would be to Harry, first to see her alive again, second to realize she is a corrupt cop on the take..