Author Topic: And another thing...Justine  (Read 613 times)

Offline EBRIEN

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And another thing...Justine
« on: April 12, 2025, 04:43:31 PM »
Right before Harry and Carlos duel Malvora and Madrigal Wraith, he chats with Justine. He asks how she's up and around. She's more than a bit evasive I think. Sorry, I've been listening, so don't have the exact quote.

I'm sure this has been discussed, but Nemfected would explain it all, but it kind of pins down a timeline for infection of Justine.

Feel free to tell me it's been discussed and where have I been.  hehe

Cheers to all!

Brien

Offline g33k

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Re: And another thing...Justine
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2025, 10:18:59 PM »
Right before Harry and Carlos duel Malvora and Madrigal Wraith, he chats with Justine. He asks how she's up and around. She's more than a bit evasive I think. Sorry, I've been listening, so don't have the exact quote.

I'm sure this has been discussed, but Nemfected would explain it all, but it kind of pins down a timeline for infection of Justine.

Feel free to tell me it's been discussed and where have I been.  hehe

Cheers to all!

Brien 

Justine's Nemfection has been discussed, yes.
@Mira has an interesting theory that she has actually been Nemfected all along (or since very-early); I'm not convinced, but I think there's some evidence to support the idea, needing hardly any tin-foil for her hat (I've certainly needed much more, for some of my own crackpot notions!).

Papa Raith's Outsider-fueled personal anti-magic ward, and his porn-star-sorceress Outsider-summoning, Vito's Outsider-possession, Justine's Nemfection, all pointing to substantive Outsider activity within the White Court.

My theory is, Mab's primary interest in ordering Harry to marry Lara is to incite a "patented Harry Dresden Anarchygasm" amongst the Whamps, and proactively/preemptively expose more Outsiders.
 

Offline Mira

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Re: And another thing...Justine
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2025, 12:48:55 PM »
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Papa Raith's Outsider-fueled personal anti-magic ward, and his porn-star-sorceress Outsider-summoning, Vito's Outsider-possession, Justine's Nemfection, all pointing to substantive Outsider activity within the White Court.

Putting my tin hat back on for a moment given the above statement.. Why would Papa Raith send an infected "insane" Justine to be the lover of Thomas?  For starters while he may not be star born or a wizard, Thomas might also have some protection from Outsiders from his mother.  Why would sex with Thomas "drain off enough emotions" to keep her insanity in check, or even cure it?
Ultimately to control Thomas, which eventually Justine did when for her sake and the sake of "their child," Thomas became an assassin.  Took a few years, but White Court Vamps live a long time, Outsiders live forever, they play a long game of very complicated three dimensional chess.. Then again, so does Mab.. Yet even she didn't see or predict that Justine was infested.

Offline EBRIEN

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Re: And another thing...Justine
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2025, 07:05:24 PM »
Justine's Nemfection has been discussed, yes.
@Mira has an interesting theory that she has actually been Nemfected all along (or since very-early); I'm not convinced, but I think there's some evidence to support the idea, needing hardly any tin-foil for her hat (I've certainly needed much more, for some of my own crackpot notions!).

Papa Raith's Outsider-fueled personal anti-magic ward, and his porn-star-sorceress Outsider-summoning, Vito's Outsider-possession, Justine's Nemfection, all pointing to substantive Outsider activity within the White Court.

My theory is, Mab's primary interest in ordering Harry to marry Lara is to incite a "patented Harry Dresden Anarchygasm" amongst the Whamps, and proactively/preemptively expose more Outsiders.

Yes. I can see Mab using Harry to disinfect the White Court. Sorta like she had to do with her own court--Lea, etc. Perhaps Lara already knows there's a problem and she and Mab launched this plan together knowing that Harry is the cure.

Offline g33k

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Re: And another thing...Justine
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2025, 07:35:05 PM »
Putting my tin hat back on for a moment given the above statement.. Why would Papa Raith send an infected "insane" Justine to be the lover of Thomas?  For starters while he may not be star born or a wizard, Thomas might also have some protection from Outsiders from his mother.  Why would sex with Thomas "drain off enough emotions" to keep her insanity in check, or even cure it?
Ultimately to control Thomas, which eventually Justine did when for her sake and the sake of "their child," Thomas became an assassin.  Took a few years, but White Court Vamps live a long time, Outsiders live forever, they play a long game of very complicated three dimensional chess.. Then again, so does Mab.. Yet even she didn't see or predict that Justine was infested.

We have no solid understanding of Nemfection; just a few Harry-POV snippets, and we know that Harry is (a) an unreliable narrator; (b) really unsophisticated -- even simplistic -- compared to the Big Powers.

Is being Nemfected something like being a Denarian?  Does Nemesis implant a "shadow" of itself, who cajoles/seduces/coerces the victim until they choose to accept a full-on Nemfection?  We do know that Nemesis can have multiple agents, but not how many agents.  Maybe the multiplicity of agents comes via having multiple independent "shadows."  Or maybe "Nemfection" is an all-or-nothing state:  either Nemesis is within you (though not necessarily fully in control of you) or it's not.

None of which really explains whether these multiple agents can communicate (outside of normal mundane channels) and/or collaborate.  Are they limited to mortal methods?  Can they use magic to talk?  Are they all just sockpuppets of one central identity, who can use them like fingers of a single hand?

Papa-Raith may have been Nemfected himself, or carrying a Shadow.  He may have made a deal to send a specific doe to Thomas, without understanding the ramifications.  Or a Nemfected (and actually rather powerful) Justine may have managed things on her own, without need for any assistance at all.

Quote
Why would sex with Thomas "drain off enough emotions" to keep her insanity in check, or even cure it?
Multiple kinds of "insanity" are simply one form or another of emotional disregulation; whamp-sex likely settles this sort of thing right down, imposing its own emotional steady-state of fixed adoration & hormone-driven relaxation.

Offline Mira

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Re: And another thing...Justine
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2025, 12:07:12 PM »
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Multiple kinds of "insanity" are simply one form or another of emotional disregulation; whamp-sex likely settles this sort of thing right down, imposing its own emotional steady-state of fixed adoration & hormone-driven relaxation.

However the original cause of her insanity isn't addressed, so you'd think that without the vamp sex, Justine would revert because she'd be like any other mentally ill person who reverts when they are off their meds..

Offline g33k

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Re: And another thing...Justine
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2025, 04:01:38 PM »
However the original cause of her insanity isn't addressed, so you'd think that without the vamp sex, Justine would revert because she'd be like any other mentally ill person who reverts when they are off their meds..

My notion is this:  if (as I allege) insanity of the "emotional disregulation" forms can be "treated" via Awsome Vampire Sex(tm), then likely the Whampires know of this, at least informally.  This provides our hypothetically-Nemfected Justine with "plausible deniability" where she can act "crazy" when it suits her, but "rational" when that's how she wants/needs to act.

Offline Bridger

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Re: And another thing...Justine
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2025, 03:05:04 PM »
I don't think a N'fection is necessary to explain Justine's recovery.  Thomas stole a lot of her life energy, but he didn't kill her.  There's no reason to think she shouldn't recover in the same way as all his other feedings.  However, what little life energy there is left is going to take a very long time to recover.  Instead of hours or days from a lighter feeding, it takes months or years.

Offline Mira

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Re: And another thing...Justine
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2025, 04:42:48 PM »
I don't think a N'fection is necessary to explain Justine's recovery.  Thomas stole a lot of her life energy, but he didn't kill her.  There's no reason to think she shouldn't recover in the same way as all his other feedings.  However, what little life energy there is left is going to take a very long time to recover.  Instead of hours or days from a lighter feeding, it takes months or years.

Or not, what we don't know is how someone becomes infested in the first place.  Can for example Nemesis just jump into anyone's brain and install an Outsider lieutenant?  Or does the would be host have to agree to it?  In that case under what circumstances would Justine agree? Another case for Justine being infected from the beginning, is she'd be the perfect spy for Nemesis.  She could keep tabs on Thomas, influence Thomas, especially after he meets Harry.. As secretary for Lara she knew everything that was going on inside the White Court, and by that time had also gained the trust of Harry... Nemesis plays the long game, just like Mab.

Offline g33k

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Re: And another thing...Justine
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2025, 08:42:12 PM »
... In that case under what circumstances would Justine agree? ...

That one is pretty easy:  offer "This will let you be with Thomas."

Harry pointed out to Thomas what a potent temptation a Coin would be to him, if the complementary "be with Justine" offer were  on the table; just suggested by Harry as a precaution, it still shook him to his core.
 
Here's an idea... not even a WAG, let's call it a "flight of fancy," with no real evidence.

What if the Thomas/Justine backstory has a similar-ish tenor to the Harry/Molly one?  Hear me out...

Young Justine, new-come to the Whampire orbit, has figured out they're supernaturally-sexy, but can't shake the habit (let's be honest:  few could).  But she sees that Thomas is different.  Maybe Thomas was kind to her, when he didn't need to be, when other Whamps might have been cruel.  Maybe it was kindness to her friend, or sister, or etc.  Repeated kindness & gentleness, in that cruel Whampire world?  She could easily have developed a crush on Thomas, or more.  Just as Molly did for Harry.

Fertile ground for a Nemesis "you can be with him" offer!
 
« Last Edit: April 17, 2025, 09:32:31 PM by g33k »

Offline Mr. Mouse

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Re: And another thing...Justine
« Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 01:31:09 AM »
Or not, what we don't know is how someone becomes infested in the first place.  Can for example Nemesis just jump into anyone's brain and install an Outsider lieutenant?  Or does the would be host have to agree to it? 

I don't see Lea agreeing to host Nemesis. Maeve, on the other hand ...

Offline Mira

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Re: And another thing...Justine
« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 01:43:27 AM »
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I don't see Lea agreeing to host Nemesis. Maeve, on the other hand ...

Exactly... And Nemesis was very clever about it, using the Knife.. Not even Mab saw it coming until it was too late for Maeve..
And yes, Lea could be tempted, read carefully what she says when we first meet her, she wanted more power in the Court, even thought she deserved it more than Mab..  That's why when Harry finds her later in Proven Guilty in her ice block Lea is contrite and says that Mab is teaching her how wrong she was.

Offline g33k

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Re: And another thing...Justine
« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 02:52:45 PM »
... And yes, Lea could be tempted, read carefully what she says when we first meet her, she wanted more power in the Court, even thought she deserved it more than Mab...
Absolutely!
I'm pretty sure there's WoJ saying that Mab chose Lea as the most-powerful faerie, with the most personal rivalry/ambition, because Mab wanted the best whetstone to keep herself sharp (or something like that)

A thousand years of thwarted rivalry?  That might just present a temptation Lea couldn't pass up.
And, it was gifted to her in public ceremony, which likely invokes all sorts of guest/host obligations of faerie Law.