RNT Episode 4: Is Monica Sells Morally Culpable for what happens in Storm Front?

[Bridger]

Brian and I just released our fourth episode of Recorded Neutral Territory, a chapter-by-chapter re-read podcast.  (You can subscribe to the podcast here or watch on our youtube channel).

This week we worked through chapters 6 and 7 of Storm Front where we (finally) got to see some real Magic, and meet Toot Toot for the first time! I had to re-evaluate my view of the little pixie after examining the scene more critically.

After that Morgan shows up, which normally ruins the party but we had some fun re-evaluating him as well, with context from Turn Coat and the Journal micro-fiction.

After that we discussed whether Monica Sells is at all morally culpable for her part in Storm Front.  She participated in the creation of three-eye, and sent Dresden after Victor without giving him the whole story.  Do we fault her for those things?

Finally, we announced that our next episode would, (in addition to examining chapters 8 and 9), be asking the question: Is there a better system than the Doom of Damocles? This episode will be released in two weeks (April 16th).

Hope you all are enjoying the show. Please let us know (here, or via email: mac@rnt.fm) if you have any good Questions for Bob in the future, or any other constructive feedback regarding the show.

[Mira]

  I don't remember where it said that Monica Sells had anything to do with the creation of Three Eye. Could you give chapter and quote?  I am not saying you are wrong, I just don't remember it.

[peterwiggin94]

Monica participates in the orgy rituals that Victor used to create them. I think she's somewhat culpable but minimally so. Especially compared to Victor and the married couple (I forget their name). There's also a pretty good argument suggesting that Victor manipulated or abused her into doing it so she isn't.

[Mira]

Monica participates in the orgy rituals that Victor used to create them. I think she's somewhat culpable but minimally so. Especially compared to Victor and the married couple (I forget their name). There's also a pretty good argument suggesting that Victor manipulated or abused her into doing it so she isn't.

 I just went back and reread Chapter 21 of Storm Front, inadvertently Harry soul gazes Monica and realizes all she really cares about is protecting her children.  Monica was an abused woman and the family was desperate for money, so she went along with Victor, the rituals, then he forced her to take the Three Eye and she grew more afraid..Then Victor pulled in the Beckitts and their desire to get revenge against Marcone.. Then Monica began to fear for her children, then she went to Harry.  No, Monica Sells isn't culpable in any of this, she was a victim.

[Bridger]

I just went back and reread Chapter 21 of Storm Front, inadvertently Harry soul gazes Monica and realizes all she really cares about is protecting her children.  Monica was an abused woman and the family was desperate for money, so she went along with Victor, the rituals, then he forced her to take the Three Eye and she grew more afraid..Then Victor pulled in the Beckitts and their desire to get revenge against Marcone.. Then Monica began to fear for her children, then she went to Harry.  No, Monica Sells isn't culpable in any of this, she was a victim.

During the show we made clear the distinction.  She is NOT morally culpable for being abused, or for any of the actions of Victor against her or her Children.  However, she did make morally questionable choices with regards to Dresden.  She put him in danger without giving him the full picture of what was happening.  He could have easily died because she refused to give him that information.

That's what we discussed on the show.  I think there's room to find her at least partly at fault for not allowing Harry to make his own informed choices.  However, I think she probably can't be held at fault for knowing about the 3-eye and failing to report it.  Fear for her life and the life of her kids against literally unknown power (she didn't know how deep or shallow Victor's power was) is a strong mitigating factor.

[Mira]

During the show we made clear the distinction.  She is NOT morally culpable for being abused, or for any of the actions of Victor against her or her Children.  However, she did make morally questionable choices with regards to Dresden.  She put him in danger without giving him the full picture of what was happening.  He could have easily died because she refused to give him that information.

Abuse is complicated and spouses often react in questionable ways, or what defies logic to someone not living under that kind of condition.  Remember this woman still loved or thought she still loved her husband in spite of what he was doing to her and her family.  That sounds twisted, but often the case, often the law is no help either, this is why so many abused spouses end up dead.  After the soul gaze getting the full picture, or a fuller picture of what was going on, and remember at this point Monica was still making a plea for her husband that he was once a good man.. While Harry did bring it to her attention that she should have told him everything when she first saw him, he understood and didn't hold it against her. 

[Bridger]

Abuse is complicated and spouses often react in questionable ways, or what defies logic to someone not living under that kind of condition.  Remember this woman still loved or thought she still loved her husband in spite of what he was doing to her and her family.  That sounds twisted, but often the case, often the law is no help either, this is why so many abused spouses end up dead.  After the soul gaze getting the full picture, or a fuller picture of what was going on, and remember at this point Monica was still making a plea for her husband that he was once a good man.. While Harry did bring it to her attention that she should have told him everything when she first saw him, he understood and didn't hold it against her.

To be clear: Her actions are completely understandable, and I think they are justifiable from her perspective.  I still think that if Harry had died as a result of her withholding information, I would still hold her somewhat accountable.

[Mira]

To be clear: Her actions are completely understandable, and I think they are justifiable from her perspective.  I still think that if Harry had died as a result of her withholding information, I would still hold her somewhat accountable.

 I think she'd feel guilty, but I don't think she is accountable.  Why?  Because when she first went to Harry she was dealing with her own set of emotional problems.  At that point she was still trying to rationalize what her husband was doing, trying to save a marriage that shouldn't be saved.  The woman didn't know squat about magic, I doubt that she understood that not telling Harry everything would or could get him killed.  All she wanted was for things to be normal again, she didn't want police involvement, because she feared that if they got involved she'd lose her husband and maybe her children as well. 

[g33k]

I think she'd feel guilty, but I don't think she is accountable.  Why?  Because when she first went to Harry she was dealing with her own set of emotional problems.  At that point she was still trying to rationalize what her husband was doing, trying to save a marriage that shouldn't be saved.  The woman didn't know squat about magic, I doubt that she understood that not telling Harry everything would or could get him killed.  All she wanted was for things to be normal again, she didn't want police involvement, because she feared that if they got involved she'd lose her husband and maybe her children as well.

She can't be held accountable for what she didn't know.

I don't think we can be completely clear on what she did/didn't know about magic, though.  How long was Victor a practitioner?  How much did she see?

I think the OP is overreaching in thinking that we have enough info to come to a sure conclusion; yes, Monica Sells will bear moral culpability if she knowingly & willfully endangered someone, but I'm unclear how much she actually knew.

As @Mira points out, there's mitigating factors (suffering from abuse, mother protecting her child); but the "mitigating factors" only reduce the issues; they don't provide a blanket excuse.
 

[Bridger]

She can't be held accountable for what she didn't know.

I don't think we can be completely clear on what she did/didn't know about magic, though.  How long was Victor a practitioner?  How much did she see?[/q]

That's a fair point.  It's possible I'm speculating that she knew more.

[Mira]

As @Mira points out, there's mitigating factors (suffering from abuse, mother protecting her child); but the "mitigating factors" only reduce the issues; they don't provide a blanket excuse.
 

 But they do, because Monica was symptoms are classic for battered/abused spouse syndrome.  It isn't an excuse, it's the mental state she was in because what had gone down in her family.  Also don't minimize that Victor had also managed to get her addicted to Three Eye in the process.  It took a great deal of courage for her to even come to Harry in the first place.  In the kitchen after the soul gaze Harry does ask her straight out why didn't she come clean with him in the office?  Her only response was unspeakable fear, thinking she wouldn't be believed, for her own sanity she had no other words for him.. Harry didn't press her further on that point, if he felt she was culpable at all I think he would have pressed her or said as an aside afterwords that she bore responsibility, he didn't.

[g33k]

But they do, because Monica was symptoms are classic for battered/abused spouse syndrome.  It isn't an excuse, it's the mental state she was in because what had gone down in her family.  Also don't minimize that Victor had also managed to get her addicted to Three Eye in the process.  It took a great deal of courage for her to even come to Harry in the first place ...

Yes, these are all mitigating factors.
Yes, it took tremendous courage for her to seek Harry's help.

They do not entirely relieve Monica of all moral culpability.
It's essentially the same as a drunk driver:  once they're drunk, their judgement is impaired.  But they chose to be in that drunken state; and usually, knowing they'd be driving (home from the bar, etc).

I doubt Monica ever would have chosen to be abused, or addicted.  But there are moments in that downward slide where you can break free, where she could have broken free.  So long as it was just her, she is 100% the victim.

But her "victimhood" does not offer her complete moral cover when it puts others at risk.  She made a choice; it may have been months before, or years.  But she chose something destructive, and that choice led to her putting another person in harm's way.

... In the kitchen after the soul gaze Harry does ask her straight out why didn't she come clean with him in the office?  Her only response was unspeakable fear, thinking she wouldn't be believed, for her own sanity she had no other words for him.. Harry didn't press her further on that point, if he felt she was culpable at all I think he would have pressed her or said as an aside afterwords that she bore responsibility, he didn't.

Harry was deep into his white-knight gallantry phase; Monica was clearly a victim.  I doubt you could have gotten Harry to press more guilt onto her if you'd held a hot poker to the soles of his feet!
 

[Mira]

I doubt Monica ever would have chosen to be abused, or addicted.  But there are moments in that downward slide where you can break free, where she could have broken free.  So long as it was just her, she is 100% the victim.

Spousal abuse doesn't work that way.  And Monica did chose to break free, that's why she went to Harry.  However she wasn't free, the emotional damage from the fear and her conflicted feelings she had for husband still raged with in her.  It's a real Stockholm Syndrome type thing...  Carefully go back and reread those passages in Storm Front.  An addicted drunk as you say can chose to stop drinking, but we both know it isn't that simple.  Neither is being a victim of spousal abuse, the woman still loves her husband even as he abuses her and often will go back even at the cost of her life..

I leave you with the first couple of sentences from Harry's soul gaze with her...page 230 Storm Front.

I hadn't wanted to know that she had been abused as a child.  She married a man who provided her with more of the same, as an adult.