How did Vadderrung miss the Fomor’s alliance with the Titan?

[SerScot]

Information and knowledge is what he is… what he does… how did he miss something that huge?

[g33k]

Information and knowledge is what he is… what he does… how did he miss something that huge?

4 things, I suspect:

1/ The fomor were doing the "underwater" (& likely "deep sea") thing, which gives a tremendous amount of inherent stealth; and, presumably, the fomor had some other non-trivial stealthy-powers themselves.

2/ Ethniu is an Odin-caliber being herself, and likely could offset most of Odin's "infosec" methods.
 
3/ I suspect they put it all together relativey fast, to have minimal time for people to screw-up and let things slip.

4/ Last but not (at all!) least, "Nemesis" has incredible stealth-powers, and the Outsider-assault simultaneous with Ethniu's ultimatum suggests the fomor may also have gotten some help on their "stay below the radar" efforts.

[SerScot]

4 things, I suspect:

1/ The fomor were doing the "underwater" (& likely "deep sea") thing, which gives a tremendous amount of inherent stealth; and, presumably, the fomor had some other non-trivial stealthy-powers themselves.

2/ Ethniu is an Odin-caliber being herself, and likely could offset most of Odin's "infosec" methods.
 
3/ I suspect they put it all together relativey fast, to have minimal time for people to screw-up and let things slip.

4/ Last but not (at all!) least, "Nemesis" has incredible stealth-powers, and the Outsider-assault simultaneous with Ethniu's ultimatum suggests the fomor may also have gotten some help on their "stay below the radar" efforts.

The details… sure… but complete tactical and strategic surprise?  It’s very difficult to believe that old one eye had no idea the Fomor Peace Conference was a complete ruise.  That’s what he would be looking for.  That’s one of the things he originally sacrificed his eye to gain… access… to knowledge actively concealed.

[Mira]

The details… sure… but complete tactical and strategic surprise?  It’s very difficult to believe that old one eye had no idea the Fomor Peace Conference was a complete ruise.  That’s what he would be looking for.  That’s one of the things he originally sacrificed his eye to gain… access… to knowledge actively concealed.

I remember vaguely and have to go back and reread that Vadderung acted a bit detached, I don't think he expected to get sucked into it..

[SerScot]

I remember vaguely and have to go back and reread that Vadderung acted a bit detached, I don't think he expected to get sucked into it..

I just finished a re-read of Peace Talks.  Vadderrung was surprised.

[Mira]

I just finished a re-read of Peace Talks.  Vadderrung was surprised.

However no more than Ferrofax.. Then again, they may have been aware of her alliance with the Fomor, but since up until that moment they had no quarrel with her.  She tells them openly her beef was with the mortals, not either Vadderrung or Ferrofax. 

[g33k]

...  That’s one of the things he originally sacrificed his eye to gain… access… to knowledge actively concealed.

Yes; but the "Norse Pantheon" has no particular supremacy over any others; and thus Odin might be supreme in his hidden-knowledge vs. other Norse deities, he wouldn't have the same advantage vs. the Celtic pantheon (from which Ethniu derives).

Fundamentally, though:  Ethniu always was allied with the Fomor.  Balor (her father, whose Eye she carried as a weapon) was one of the war-leaders of the Fomor.

… but complete tactical and strategic surprise?  It’s very difficult to believe that old one eye had no idea the Fomor Peace Conference was a complete ruise ...

This is a reasonable question.  Large-scale military movements "should" not be hard to detect... OTOH, we're not dealing with a RL army & RL logistics:  I'm sure they could stage a huge army in their heartlands, then open a Way down on the lakebed, and march (swim) in thousands per hour...

I also go back to the "undersea" thing.  I'm unclear how much Odin's power extends down there; offhand, I recall no Norse lore saying he had any adventures or conquests there.  In the Norse myth-cycles, the "Vanir" were a peer/rival group to the Aesir with whom they eventually made peace; it was the Vanir king Njord who was the "Lord of the Oceans and Winds."

And similarly, the Fomor were associated with the underseas.

So their foreignness (combined with undersea supremacy) might have been enough to keep the secret even from Odin.

[Mira]

And similarly, the Fomor were associated with the underseas.

  And that is mentioned at the end of Peace Talks when Vadderrung and Company try to devise a defense strategy for Chicago.  That the Fomor reign supreme under water and none of the powers at the Peace Talks has much knowledge and no influence there.  So in that sense it is easy to see why they would be totally hoodwinked by the Fomor.

[Avernite]

  And that is mentioned at the end of Peace Talks when Vadderrung and Company try to devise a defense strategy for Chicago.  That the Fomor reign supreme under water and none of the powers at the Peace Talks has much knowledge and no influence there.  So in that sense it is easy to see why they would be totally hoodwinked by the Fomor.

Of course they say so, but it seems in Ghost Story/Changes Mab has some power over the cold and dark of the deeps.

So I suspect the Fomor have the home field advantage, but various powers did know SOMETHING was up with the Fomor. They just didn't know what. And as per Skin Game, sufficiently powerful beings can provide serious magic screening to prevent even Angels-of-espionage looking in. Presumably Ethniu is on the level where she can do that too, to depowered Deities-of-espionage.

[Mira]

Of course they say so, but it seems in Ghost Story/Changes Mab has some power over the cold and dark of the deeps.

I don't think she had power over the cold or dark of the deep.  What Mab did anticipate was Harry's attempted suicide, she or Uriel may have had some control over the slight breeze that may have altered the bullet a few millimeters so when it hit Harry's heart it didn't cause instant death.  And somehow arranged or got lucky because Harry fell into the already near freezing water of the lake, and was waiting for him in anticipation.  The cold of the water slowed things down and kept Harry's brain from dying from lack of oxygen and blood circulation.. Yup she can make ice, so could Harry as he has demonstrated..  That isn't the same as having direct knowledge of what Fomor do in the depths which is their kingdom.

[SerScot]

@g33k

Yes; but the "Norse Pantheon" has no particular supremacy over any others; and thus Odin might be supreme in his hidden-knowledge vs. other Norse deities, he wouldn't have the same advantage vs. the Celtic pantheon (from which Ethniu derives).

Vadderung knows all about Uriel and his team at Michael’s house… that’s way outside of his pantheon’s perview…

[g33k]

Of course they say so, but it seems in Ghost Story/Changes Mab has some power over the cold and dark of the deeps...

Well, to be fair:
 a/ "cold" and "dark" are pretty Queen-of-Winter sorts of things, after all!
 b/ that scene at the end of Changes was the culmination of Mab's gambit to gain her new Knight.  I expect she handled it personally... and likely she had some of her other heavy hitters on-hand in case any other powers wanted to intervene.
 c/ we've seen that Demonreach has scope as far as the edges of the lake.

So, as Harry was aboard the Water Beetle, considering his upcoming date with Murphy:  Mab (and likely other Winter heavyweights) were there, and maybe even Demonreach.

And I don't think the Fomor had any motivation to be active at that specific harbor, on that specific day; I don't think they (and/or their allies) were tracking Harry very closely, at that point in time.


I don't think she has the kind of sovereignty under water that she has above.  One of her titles is "Queen of Air and Darkness," which pretty explicitly leaves out the underwater realm.  But she's still terribly-powerful, and entirely capable of conducting a brief mission outside the strict "Winter" domain, particularly in (winter-friendly) "cold and dark."

But... does she have the kind of power needed for sustained surveillance under the water, with Corb & the other Fomor against her, and even Ethniu?  To spot patterns?  Does she know all the underseas Ways?  Did she even want to go (or (previously) see reason to go) sniffing into the areas where the Fomor were forced, millenia ago?  I suspect the  answer to all is, "no."

So yeah:  Mab, moving in power & with backup on-hand, opposed by maybe (but probably not even) a random scout, or whatever?  Sure, that happened & makes sense...  Without it implying Mab having any her usual one-step-ahead (or several srwps, for that matter) foresightedness.

... So I suspect the Fomor have the home field advantage, but various powers did know SOMETHING was up with the Fomor. They just didn't know what...

In addition to their "home field advantage" under water, the Fomor had another advantage:  everyone already knew they were "making a move."  They were taking advantage of the power-vacuum and WC weakness &c to make a bid to become more active in the world.

So troop-movements &c might be "expected" from them.

But a direct challenge to all the Accorded powers at once?  Making a simultaneous power-play against Mab and Odin and Ferrovax??!?

Who TF does that?

[g33k]

@g33k

Vadderung knows all about Uriel and his team at Michael’s house… that’s way outside of his pantheon’s perview…

Anyone Sighted could look at them; Goodman Grey did.
I expect many powers knew of them... and put it off their list as "do not f--k around, do not find out."

[TrueMonk]

The water is also extra troublesome because of how it disperses magic. Odin and others use magic quite a lot.

Then I guess almost everyone intelligent suspected treachery of some sort, but the kill Chicago was just out of the realm of likelihood.

Perhaps he did not about the bronze armor thing. I guess without it they could just have killed her if she did something so direct.

[Mira]

The water is also extra troublesome because of how it disperses magic. Odin and others use magic quite a lot.

Then I guess almost everyone intelligent suspected treachery of some sort, but the kill Chicago was just out of the realm of likelihood.

Perhaps he did not about the bronze armor thing. I guess without it they could just have killed her if she did something so direct.

I seem to remember early on, that water causes all kinds of trouble for magic.. I seem to remember that rain helped save Harry and Susan's ass from the frog demon in Storm Front.  So could Mab have spies in the depths to keep track of the Fomor? Perhaps, then again even she might have limits on the extent of her power.. Consider the Polar Ice Cap, yes, the surface is frozen, but the ice only goes so far.. You can take a submarine under it..