Molly’s trial… what if…

[SerScot]

Harry had played it cool and not shamed the Merlin.  We all saw the various windows in Harry’s soulgaze of Molly.  Suppose the Merlin imposed the Doom of Damocles on Molly but assigned her apprenticeship to Eb… or LtW instead of Harry.  Would she be the Warden image we saw.  More capable in battle because her Master was less gentle with her in training?

Discuss…

[Mira]

Harry had played it cool and not shamed the Merlin.  We all saw the various windows in Harry’s soulgaze of Molly.  Suppose the Merlin imposed the Doom of Damocles on Molly but assigned her apprenticeship to Eb… or LtW instead of Harry.  Would she be the Warden image we saw.  More capable in battle because her Master was less gentle with her in training?

  I think Molly would have still become what she became.  The flaw in Harry's training wasn't that he was too gentle with her as far as fighting goes, but that he failed to make her understand that she cannot mess with the minds of others.  Actually Eb, as Blackstaff may have ended up executing her himself for breaking that Law of Magic.  She may have fared better with Listens because she had a tendency to want to be a healer, then again would she have learned the main lesson about the thing that almost cost her her head to begin with?

[g33k]

  I think Molly would have still become what she became.  The flaw in Harry's training wasn't that he was too gentle with her as far as fighting goes, but that he failed to make her understand that she cannot mess with the minds of others.  Actually Eb, as Blackstaff may have ended up executing her himself for breaking that Law of Magic.  She may have fared better with Listens because she had a tendency to want to be a healer, then again would she have learned the main lesson about the thing that almost cost her her head to begin with?

I think it's more that Eb is too rigid; apprentice-Molly needed some flexibility from her master.  I expect LtW could have done a good job.  Both of them would have realized (like Harry did) that getting her to feel -- in her gut -- how dangerous mind-magic could be... that would be the only way to keep her from spiralling on down the black-magic path.

That, or a Faerie-Queen mantle...
 

[LordDresden2]

Harry had played it cool and not shamed the Merlin.  We all saw the various windows in Harry’s soulgaze of Molly.  Suppose the Merlin imposed the Doom of Damocles on Molly but assigned her apprenticeship to Eb… or LtW instead of Harry.  Would she be the Warden image we saw.  More capable in battle because her Master was less gentle with her in training?

Discuss…

It would have been better if Harry hadn't embarrassed Langtry, but not for Molly so much as for Harry himself.  Harry's clumsiness at politics has cost him dearly by the end of Battleground, and there's a connecting trail from that trial to Harry's suspension from the Council.

What makes it worse is that Harry has proven that he can play the game when he has to do it.  He's shown the ability to play at the same level as Marcone and Lara.  But he just couldn't bring himself to do it with Langtry, and it's come back to bite him.

As for Molly...I don't think it would have made much difference.  Langtry apparently really believes that warlocks always backslide, sooner or later.  From that POV, killing Molly early could save the lives and/or sanity of multiple potential victims later. 

[Mira]

It would have been better if Harry hadn't embarrassed Langtry, but not for Molly so much as for Harry himself.  Harry's clumsiness at politics has cost him dearly by the end of Battleground, and there's a connecting trail from that trial to Harry's suspension from the Council.

Yes.

As for Molly...I don't think it would have made much difference.  Langtry apparently really believes that warlocks always backslide, sooner or later.  From that POV, killing Molly early could save the lives and/or sanity of multiple potential victims later. 

Langtree might not be wrong, we saw it in Molly, and Harry at times, though Eb managed to drill enough morals into his head that he usually checks himself, often only just.  Eb understood this and this is why he didn't teach anymore magic to young Harry, that he could learn later on his own.  What was important was to drill the whys of magic, when we first meet Harry in Storm Front, this is what he talks about and why magic shouldn't be abused by going to the black with it.  But could Eb have been as successful with Molly?  Or had she already passed the point of no return?  A huge difference between Molly and Harry, Molly had no magical training, she realized she had a talent, without knowing the Laws of Magic or the harm she could inflict, she used it with the best of intentions with disastrous consequences. All Molly knew of magic is what she saw her idol Harry do with it, when she discovered her talent, she had a loaded gun but no idea how deadly using it could be.  Harry in contrast was an apprentice for many years, he knew all the basics at the age of sixteen, Justin however taught him nothing about the Laws of Magic or the morality of it.  So Harry's task with Molly was not only teaching her the morality of magic, but magic. 

[g33k]

...  Langtry apparently really believes that warlocks always backslide, sooner or later.  From that POV, killing Molly early could save the lives and/or sanity of multiple potential victims later. 

I don't think Langtry believes that it's an "always" just "mostly" or "almost always."

But that you can never be sure, and it's not worth the risk.

It's much like the infamous "trolley problem" from moral philosophy.  Langtry is always going to throw that switch, kill the one person (who is probably warlock-bound) to save the many whom that warlock would have killed.  And if, on a (very) few occasions, that person he killed would not have gone warlock...

Well.
That's regrettable, to be sure.
VERY regretable.

But in the balance-ledger, he has saved hundreds, thousands, maybe even millions (because that's how bad a rogue warlock can get).  Arthur Langtry is OK making this choice.

[Mira]

I don't think Langtry believes that it's an "always" just "mostly" or "almost always."

But that you can never be sure, and it's not worth the risk.

Or in other words Langtry is for throwing the baby out with the bath water, which isn't really the best solution.  However since he doesn't have enough resources to deal with either the bath water, baby, or the tub at the moment, he is okay with sacrificing the baby.

It's much like the infamous "trolley problem" from moral philosophy.  Langtry is always going to throw that switch, kill the one person (who is probably warlock-bound) to save the many whom that warlock would have killed.  And if, on a (very) few occasions, that person he killed would not have gone warlock...

Or the other side of that coin is he is perhaps killing the future Merlin, Eb, or some other wizard who may have gone on to save just as many lives or more than the potential warlock would have killed..

Well.
That's regrettable, to be sure.
VERY regretable.

But in the balance-ledger, he has saved hundreds, thousands, maybe even millions (because that's how bad a rogue warlock can get).  Arthur Langtry is OK making this choice.

Maybe he is, but mistakes are made.. Easy to predict the future if a young warlock slips though the cracks, but not so easy to predict the future of what an innocent young wizard might have become if he or she had not been executed.. That's the hell of it.

[LordDresden2]

Yes.

Langtree might not be wrong, we saw it in Molly, and Harry at times, though Eb managed to drill enough morals into his head that he usually checks himself, often only just. 

We should note, too, that at the end of Battleground, Ramirez accuses Harry of having slid off the path and toward monster-ness, without even realizing it.  That his bondage to Winter makes him a proto-monster, more or less. Before we assume Ramirez is wrong, we should remember that Harry, under the influence of the Winter Knight mantle, came extremely close to murdering Rudolph.  If Sanya and Butters hadn't been there to save Harry, he probably would have.  I remember, too, that afterward the Winter Mantle was able to annul the pain of all Harry's wounds...except the burn from where he touched Butter's Sword.

Harry has a choice, he still has his free will, even with the Mantle.  But that automatically doesn't mean he'll make the right choice.  Harry came very close to proving Ramirez right in Battleground.

[Mira]

We should note, too, that at the end of Battleground, Ramirez accuses Harry of having slid off the path and toward monster-ness, without even realizing it.  That his bondage to Winter makes him a proto-monster, more or less. Before we assume Ramirez is wrong, we should remember that Harry, under the influence of the Winter Knight mantle, came extremely close to murdering Rudolph.  If Sanya and Butters hadn't been there to save Harry, he probably would have.  I remember, too, that afterward the Winter Mantle was able to annul the pain of all Harry's wounds...except the burn from where he touched Butter's Sword.

Harry has a choice, he still has his free will, even with the Mantle.  But that automatically doesn't mean he'll make the right choice.  Harry came very close to proving Ramirez right in Battleground.

We are all capable of making wrong choices, that's what free will is all about, nothing automatic about it. Even saints are capable of screwing up once in a while. However which is a mere mistake and which is a clear deliberate choice?  In other words emotion of the moment type mistake verses that of a calculated cold blooded monster?  When Harry wanted to kill Rudolph, he had just witnessed him killing with a gun his beloved friend and lover, Murphy.  The pain and rage he felt in that moment doesn't make Harry a monster or a protomonster, it makes Harry very human.  What is more consider how much control over the Winter Mantle Harry really does have verses if he didn't.  In Cold Days it was all Harry could do to keep from raping any female that moved or not fly into a rage at any slight because of the influence of the Mantle.  He has learned to keep the Mantle under control with all that exercise and whatever mental discipline's he has developed for himself. The fact that Harry has worked so hard to keep the inclinations of the Mantle under control proves he isn't a monster or a protomonster.  If Harry had really cut loose at the moment of Murphy's death, being a strong trained magical talent turbocharged with the Mantle of Winter, even two Holy Knights with Holy Swords would have had difficulty stopping him, Sanya would have to have used his AK-47 [sorry can't spell the Russian version] on him, and I doubt short of a head shot, that would have stopped him.  No, Butters and Sanya were able to talk sense into Harry, calm him down, because Harry's human will prevailed, not the mantle of Winter.  This is why Mab now has the Knight she wants and needs, not someone like Slate who not only couldn't control most of the inclinations of the Winter Mantle, a lot of the time, he didn't want to.

[LordDresden2]

We are all capable of making wrong choices, that's what free will is all about, nothing automatic about it. Even saints are capable of screwing up once in a while. However which is a mere mistake and which is a clear deliberate choice?  In other words emotion of the moment type mistake verses that of a calculated cold blooded monster?  When Harry wanted to kill Rudolph, he had just witnessed him killing with a gun his beloved friend and lover, Murphy.  The pain and rage he felt in that moment doesn't make Harry a monster or a protomonster, it makes Harry very human. 

All humans are part monster.  Rage is one of the things that can release that monster from its cage.  That's one of the reasons the Council is so hard-ass about the First Law.

Harry was in the grip of rage that had overridden his conscience and his rational mind.  He was, or was close to being, an animal in that moment.  A beast.  An angry predator. He wasn't seeing Rudolph as he was, he wasn't seeing anything as it really was.  If he had given in to it, it would have been a first step down a dangerous road.

What is more consider how much control over the Winter Mantle Harry really does have verses if he didn't.  In Cold Days it was all Harry could do to keep from raping any female that moved or not fly into a rage at any slight because of the influence of the Mantle.  He has learned to keep the Mantle under control with all that exercise and whatever mental discipline's he has developed for himself. The fact that Harry has worked so hard to keep the inclinations of the Mantle under control proves he isn't a monster or a protomonster.  If Harry had really cut loose at the moment of Murphy's death, being a strong trained magical talent turbocharged with the Mantle of Winter, even two Holy Knights with Holy Swords would have had difficulty stopping him,

On the contrary, it would have made it easier for the Knights.  If Harry had really given in entirely to the monster, then the Knights would have been free to act against him without holding back.

Remember what happened when Harry tried to strike aside Fidelacchius.  As he himself tells it, it was something like 'pain beyond pain'.  His Mantle instantlyu collapsed, his power fled, he was just Harry Dresden, ordinary human being.  If he had tried to use his own personal magic in that moment against Butters, I'm pretty sure Fidelacchius would have taken that away, too.

Even after the Mantle returned and eased the pain of his other wounds and began to heal them, the burn from Fidelachius kept hurting, it was a reminder of what had almost happened.

Sanya would have to have used his AK-47 [sorry can't spell the Russian version] on him, and I doubt short of a head shot, that would have stopped him.

In that state, the Swords would be useful against Harry, and they would absolutely stop him.  So would a point blank headshot from a rifle, for that matter.  Even as Winter Knight, Harry is still mortal.

  No, Butters and Sanya were able to talk sense into Harry, calm him down, because Harry's human will prevailed, not the mantle of Winter.

Butters and Sanya were able to reach Harry after Fidelacchius erased the Mantle and left Harry just Harry again, and after the pain of touching it shocked him out of his 'clarity', as he was thinking of it.  He wasn't even listening to them before that.

Before that, Harry was so lost in his rage that he thought the Knights were behaving wrongly by interfering, he was in that precise mental state the White Council worries about with the First Law:  he was ready to kill and thought it was right. He might very well have used magic to kill Rudolph in that moment.

Remember Harry's mental state a moment later after Fidelacchius freed him from the Mantle.  He was horrified, he suddenly perceived that Rudolph was himself horrified and guilt-stricken, that he had been fighting his friends, the best men he knows.  That he had been ready to become a murderer himself, for what was fundamentally a selfish reason (it's not as if murdering Rudolph would restore Karrin, after all).

Sanya and Butters weren't saving Rudolph, they were saving Harry.  If they hadn't been there, there's a good chance that Harry would have broken the First Law, straight up, in that moment...and then it wouldn't just be expulsion from the Council he was dealing with.

[Mira]

Harry was in the grip of rage that had overridden his conscience and his rational mind.  He was, or was close to being, an animal in that moment.  A beast.  An angry predator. He wasn't seeing Rudolph as he was, he wasn't seeing anything as it really was.  If he had given in to it, it would have been a first step down a dangerous road.

In all honesty, how many human beings having seen a lover murdered before their eyes would have acted much different from Harry?  Very few to none, consider even Michael Carpenter was ready to beat up that priest who kidnapped and harmed his daughter.  He would have beaten him to death with a baseball bat if Harry hadn't stopped him.  There was no Winter Mantle egging him on, but Michael was ready to kill brutally.

On the contrary, it would have made it easier for the Knights.  If Harry had really given in entirely to the monster, then the Knights would have been free to act against him without holding back.

However they are not invulnerable, they can be hurt and killed like any other mortal.. That's my point, it Harry had gone full postal it would have been a close thing, they could very well have lost.

Remember what happened when Harry tried to strike aside Fidelacchius.  As he himself tells it, it was something like 'pain beyond pain'.  His Mantle instantlyu collapsed, his power fled, he was just Harry Dresden, ordinary human being.  If he had tried to use his own personal magic in that moment against Butters, I'm pretty sure Fidelacchius would have taken that away, too.

I am not so sure of that, Knights can and are hurt, even killed..

Even after the Mantle returned and eased the pain of his other wounds and began to heal them, the burn from Fidelachius kept hurting, it was a reminder of what had almost happened.

I think it is a bit more complicated than that..

In that state, the Swords would be useful against Harry, and they would absolutely stop him.  So would a point blank headshot from a rifle, for that matter.  Even as Winter Knight, Harry is still mortal.

Yes, Harry is still mortal, but you are forgetting he still remains the custodian of the Swords, I think the Swords were teaching Harry other lessons that we don't know about. 

Remember Harry's mental state a moment later after Fidelacchius freed him from the Mantle.  He was horrified, he suddenly perceived that Rudolph was himself horrified and guilt-stricken, that he had been fighting his friends, the best men he knows.  That he had been ready to become a murderer himself, for what was fundamentally a selfish reason (it's not as if murdering Rudolph would restore Karrin, after all).

Thank you for making my point!  Harry was horrified because he is a decent human being at his core.  Monsters are never horrified about what they have done, or almost did.