Nicodemus Archleone and John Marcone - Birds of a feather?

[Mira]

Marcone has Gard exactly for situations like this. As a consultant her role tends to be very fluid as needs arise, but she's most valuable as an information source and force multiplier. There, she's relaying information to Marcone about how to use all of his other resources most effectively.

  I think the Denarians play in a different league from Gard.  I also think while she make be acting as muscle for Marcone, she actually works for Vadderung and his best interests.

We'll probably find out. Flipping through Small Favor, and there's even a bit of foreshadowing about the risks of breaking The Archive with friendship at the end. We're definitely starting to see that happen. This is definitely gonna come up again, the only question is if Marcone's choice and Ivy's end up linked in that way.

Ivy is full on Archive now, she has no boss, nor was she ever friends with Marcone as far as that goes.

[LordDresden2]

The thing to remember is that John Marcone and Harry Dresden are, in some ways, almost mirror images, psychologically.

I've said before that if you take Michael Carpenter, and morally reverse him, you get Nicodemus Archleone.  If you take Harry Dresden and reverse him morally, the negative image looks a lot like Marcone.

Harry and John both have an instinctive protective reaction toward women and children.  Both have learned, for different reasons, that they have to restrain and discipline that tendency.  Both are highly intelligent, self-disciplined, and capable.   Etc.

Just as Michael is a better man than Harry, his moral reverse, Nicodemus, is a worse man than Harry's moral reverse, John.

Yeah, I completely agree that no mortal is ever really in control where a Coin is concerned.  The only absolute control a mortal can have with a Coin is the decision to refuse it.

Does Marcone understand that?  We don't know yet.  Has he taken some kind of protective precautions (via Monoc or whatever)?  We don't know.  We just don't have enough data.

[BugBear]

  I think the Denarians play in a different league from Gard.  I also think while she make be acting as muscle for Marcone, she actually works for Vadderung and his best interests.

Ivy is full on Archive now, she has no boss, nor was she ever friends with Marcone as far as that goes.

Eldest Gruff knew about them. Maybe she's not on a first name basis with Tessa or Nic, but I don't think she could operate for very long without at least knowing "terrifying demons, run away" and "Potential Dennis The Mennis tactics, equally cursed, dodge small projectiles at all costs." I'm not sure if the Fallen can turn a valkyrie, but they managed a Genoskwa, so who knows.

I guess an Eldest Sidhe is maybe not the lowest bar I could set compared to Gard. But her job is also explicitly information... mongering? About the supernatural. I'm not sure if Marcone has a subscription deal, or if it's paid by the word. Maybe both, depending on the words.


LordDresden, I actually really, really like your hypothesis about the mirror image thing. I'm pretty much convinced. If not literal, perfect opposites in all things, then just super close thematic counterweights.

If you apply that to Marcone? In Mirror Mirror, and then his connection with the Archive, and then the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy? I think you can chart the rest of his course through the series.

I'll refrain from getting into the details, because now I gotta go construct a big, rambling WAG... tomorrow.

That's why I'm not addressing those other points, Mira. I will say that Marcone's friendship with Ivy was originally a misunderstanding. I just meant linked in that they could be traced to that event, and then maybe some thematics on top of that. But now I just got an idea for what they could be, and I want to iron out the idea before I go blabbing and confuse everyone. Mostly myself.

[Mira]

That's why I'm not addressing those other points, Mira. I will say that Marcone's friendship with Ivy was originally a misunderstanding. I just meant linked in that they could be traced to that event, and then maybe some thematics on top of that. But now I just got an idea for what they could be, and I want to iron out the idea before I go blabbing and confuse everyone. Mostly myself.

I'm confused because I don't remember Marcone having a friendship with Ivy.  Harry, yes, Kincaid, yes, but not Marcone, while he was very concerned about her on the island, she was a child, he is responsible for a comatose child, that's the connection.  Have to read the whole book over, but clearly the Denarians were up to something, the whole ritual thing they were in the middle of when Harry and company came to the rescue.  Harry said it was all above his head, in short he didn't know what they were up to exactly but he thought it was to get access to the Archive, but why did they need Marcone?  Perhaps knowing his hunger for power they were going to transfer the Archive into his head?  In that process Marcone got enough knowledge to know where Namshel's coin was and latched on to it.   

Does Marcone understand that?  We don't know yet.  Has he taken some kind of protective precautions (via Monoc or whatever)?  We don't know.  We just don't have enough data.

I think Marcone may very well understand that, but here is the deal on that, all of us from time to time give into temptation.  Marcone may have just enough hubris to think he is the exception to that rule.

[g33k]

Really?  I have to go back and read it, if I remember correctly Harry didn't know what it was...

Harry didn't know at the time of the Soulgaze.
He figured it out later.

... his responsibility for what happened to the girl hasn't done anything to make him a better person.  He has done little to atone for what he did that ruined her life, and that of her family ...

Except, he has.

He's continuing to keep the injured girl safe.  He's actively pursuing everything he can find to restore her.

His "but no children" policy (around crime) comes more-or-less directly from having harmed a child originally.

And he has taken on Beckitt, and is doing his best to protect her, while her daughter is vegetative.

Has he completely reformed to become a "good person"  No of course not.

But Harry learned (via Soulgaze) about this deep core element that fundamentally informs Marcone and gives him that extra bit of drive.  And later deduced that the accidental shooting of Amanda Beckitt was that deep core.

[Mira]

Harry didn't know at the time of the Soulgaze.
He figured it out later.

That's my point, but he also figured a whole lot more about Marcone..  While what happened to that little girl is a source of shame and maybe one decent thing about Marcone, basically he is still a murdering monster..

But Harry learned (via Soulgaze) about this deep core element that fundamentally informs Marcone and gives him that extra bit of drive.  And later deduced that the accidental shooting of Amanda Beckitt was that deep core.

Yes, but back to "The Godfather,"  the Godfather rejected the selling of narcotics by his family because it got kids hooked, if I remember correctly.. He also met out justice, when justice as he saw it wasn't met out, as in the case of the baker's daughter in the opening scenes at the wedding.. However this doesn't make him less of a murdering monster, just a more complex monster.

[LordDresden2]

That's my point, but he also figured a whole lot more about Marcone..  While what happened to that little girl is a source of shame and maybe one decent thing about Marcone, basically he is still a murdering monster..

Yes, but back to "The Godfather,"  the Godfather rejected the selling of narcotics by his family because it got kids hooked, if I remember correctly.. He also met out justice, when justice as he saw it wasn't met out, as in the case of the baker's daughter in the opening scenes at the wedding.. However this doesn't make him less of a murdering monster, just a more complex monster.

And a tragic one.  In the old Godfather story, Michael Corleone originally intended to 'go straight' when he got out of the military.  A combination of circumstances, family ties, and bad decisions instead turned him into the very thing he wanted to avoid being.

Which might have overtones of what could happen to Marcone.

As for Marcone being bad...well, yes.  As others have pointed out, you have to balance off the good he does with the evil, and he does a lot of evil.  Yeah, he protects kids from being directly targeted...but his very efficiency at his criminal activities means that the flow of drugs, prostitution, etc. is increased under his rule.  It's just quieter, with less direct, violent collateral damage.  But it still does harm.  Marcone might prevent kids from being murdered directly, but the drugs his organization moves addict their parents.  The corruption he encourages helps feed the corruption of the city government (granted Chicago corruption predates Marcone, but he feeds it).  The money he skims off from government and business corruption is money that isn't going to legitimate purposes.

It's only more complicated post Changes, when the ill-gotten monies help keep Murphy's Chicago defense force in business.

Marcone is a very complex bad guy...but he's still a bad guy...so far.