Author Topic: Nicodemus Archleone and John Marcone - Birds of a feather?  (Read 414 times)

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Nicodemus Archleone and John Marcone - Birds of a feather?
« on: January 11, 2025, 04:53:23 AM »
I have two questions to ask everyone about John Marcone.  The first is probably just a yes or no question but the second one; well, if you want to take a stab at it, you may have to make a wild ass guess or perhaps you might prefer to call it, an educated hypothesis about future events.

Rereading the rant Nicodemus went on in Skin Game in Hades vault, when Nic claimed that Anduriel wasn’t controlling him, that in fact it was Nicodemus who led the Fallen, not the other way around, it got me thinking about Marcone.

We learned in Battle Ground that John Marcone is also a denarian and has probably been one since he was rescued by Harry and company in Small Favor.  Both Nicodemus and Marcone are smart and highly driven characters, and they both like to be in control.  They are used to getting their own way, most of the time.

Here’s my first question.  Do you think Marcone might be falling into the same error Nicodemus has made, thinking that he is in control of his partnership with one of the Fallen?  Sure, Marcone is very smart and careful, but a creature that has been in existence since near the very beginning of time itself might be able to slowly mold Marcone in ways the Baron of Chicago wouldn’t notice.

Part 2:  We know Nicodemus has a long term goal or endgame in mind.  Deirdre told Harry that she and Nicodemus were, “fighting to save the world.”  In Death Masks or Small Favor when Harry said to Nicodemus, “You’re a saint, Nic,” Nicodemus replied, “One day.”  The guy has a long-term goal in mind, which brings me back to John Marcone.

Before we knew that John Marcone had taken up one of the blackened Denarius, we thought of him as just a crime lord.  A very ambitious crime lord who was expanding his territory into the supernatural world, but in the end, just a vanilla mortal with at best twenty to forty years of life expectancy remaining.  Even if Marcone lived into his 90’s; generally speaking it’s real hard to be intimidating when you are in your 80’s or even your 70’s.  But theoretically, Marcone is functionally immortal now.  He can be killed, but it is very hard to do so.

So that leads me to my second question.  What is John Marcone’s long-term goal?  With the knowledge he must have received from Thorned Namshiel, John Marcone is probably thinking long-term now, well beyond the power he acquired by becoming the Baron of Chicago.

We know that Marcone has it in for Nicodemus, but that doesn’t mean he couldn’t share; or come to share through the influence of his business partner, the same goals as Nicodemus.  Maybe Marcone sees himself or will see himself as the next leader of Denarians.  Maybe John Marcone will come to believe that he has to “save the world” the same way Nicodemus does.

In a really dark turn, maybe John Marcone becomes convinced to join forces with Nicodemus.  Harry and the KoTC have to face both Denarians, plus whatever cannon fodder Denarians Nic or Marcone can convince to join them.

On the other hand, it seems likely that in Mirror-Mirror Harry will meet a different version of John Marcone.  There has been some speculation that this alternate version of John Marcone will have radically changed after Dresden made a different decision in Grave Peril and travelled down a darker path.  I’m not sure where this idea came from; a WoJ that hinted at it or just an idea that has become popular with some readers, but this redeemed version of John Marcone might reveal something to Harry that he might later use to do what Michael couldn’t do with Nicodemus, get the John Marcone of his own universe to repent and redeem himself, perhaps helping Harry to stop Nicodemus once and for all.

I don’t know where John Marcone is going, what his long-term goals are or what they might become, but I don’t think John Marcone has the goals of a typical crime lord any longer.  He wants something more now.  What do you think? 

 
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Offline Mira

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Re: Nicodemus Archleone and John Marcone - Birds of a feather?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2025, 03:46:33 PM »
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Here’s my first question.  Do you think Marcone might be falling into the same error Nicodemus has made, thinking that he is in control of his partnership with one of the Fallen? 

Yes, I've said this from the start and have posted it, in the end it is my belief that Marcone will rue the day he accepted that coin.  Both Marcone and Nic think they are smart and call the shots, but in any power struggle with the Fallen, they lose.. Fallen or not, Marcone and Nic are up against angelic power, only another angel or the Lord is a true match for that.

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Part 2:  We know Nicodemus has a long term goal or endgame in mind.  Deirdre told Harry that she and Nicodemus were, “fighting to save the world.”  In Death Masks or Small Favor when Harry said to Nicodemus, “You’re a saint, Nic,” Nicodemus replied, “One day.”  The guy has a long-term goal in mind, which brings me back to John Marcone.

Before we knew that John Marcone had taken up one of the blackened Denarius, we thought of him as just a crime lord.  A very ambitious crime lord who was expanding his territory into the supernatural world, but in the end, just a vanilla mortal with at best twenty to forty years of life expectancy remaining.  Even if Marcone lived into his 90’s; generally speaking it’s real hard to be intimidating when you are in your 80’s or even your 70’s.  But theoretically, Marcone is functionally immortal now.  He can be killed, but it is very hard to do so.

Saving the world is all a point of view, isn't it?  I mean what you think will save the world I might think will end it. Who is right?  Or does it all even out in the end?  Marcone may be harder to kill now, but he got the coin because his predecessor was killed before him.. We've seen quite a few coin holders getting killed in the series, hosts are expendable, there is always a mortal waiting in the wings out of stupidity, weakness, or lust for power among other things who will accept a coin.. Who knows? If Harry hadn't accidentally stumbled into that soul gaze with a Denarian back in Death Masks and saw the reality of what being a host really means he might have given in to Lasciel's temptations..  As it was, in the end given that knowledge, Harry's will was strong enough to reject Laciel's coin, but only just.

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So that leads me to my second question.  What is John Marcone’s long-term goal?  With the knowledge he must have received from Thorned Namshiel, John Marcone is probably thinking long-term now, well beyond the power he acquired by becoming the Baron of Chicago.

Marcone's long term goal?  No different from when he was just a crime boss, go back and watch the opening scenes from "The Godfather"at the wedding, Marcone is no different.  From Marcone's first glimpses of the supernatural world, he knew he wanted a sizable chunk of it for his own ends, power and control..  That was his goal before he met Harry, it is no different now.. However this time I think he has bit off more than he will ultimately be able to chew.. Who knows? We might see a disillusioned Marcone repent and surrender his coin to the Holy Knight Butters in the final chapter of the series. 

I have no expectations for Mirror Mirror, it isn't a book I am looking forward to unless Harry learns some valuable lessons from it.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 03:23:02 PM by Mira »

Offline Lord Kinbote

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Re: Nicodemus Archleone and John Marcone - Birds of a feather?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2025, 04:15:36 PM »
Odds that Marcone is also starborn?

Also, isn't Nic starborn?

Offline Mira

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Re: Nicodemus Archleone and John Marcone - Birds of a feather?
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2025, 07:43:49 PM »
Odds that Marcone is also starborn?

Also, isn't Nic starborn?

  If he is, it hasn't been mentioned.. We don't know Marcone's birthday, so he may or may not be..

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Nicodemus Archleone and John Marcone - Birds of a feather?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2025, 02:40:53 AM »
Nicodemus might be starborn, but not John Marcone.  To be starborn, Marcone would have to be the same age as Harry; because of the every 666 years rule, and it was pretty clear in Storm Front that Marcone was a decade or two older than Harry.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

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Offline Mira

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Re: Nicodemus Archleone and John Marcone - Birds of a feather?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2025, 02:51:37 PM »
Nicodemus might be starborn, but not John Marcone.  To be starborn, Marcone would have to be the same age as Harry; because of the every 666 years rule, and it was pretty clear in Storm Front that Marcone was a decade or two older than Harry.

 However at this point we don't know for sure in either case.