Ebenezar said something that confuses me and p's me off

[KurtinStGeorge]

OK, I'm not really angry, but this quote from Peace Talks just might derail several ideas that I and other readers have been discussing the past week or two.  More than that, it confuses Jim's narrative.  Jim probably has it all worked out so it will make sense, but I still find it annoying.  So without further delay, here is what Ebenezar said to Harry in Peace Talks about what it means to be Starborn.

Ebenezar - "Every couple or three generations, the stars lineup just right, and what amounts to a spotlight plays over the earth for a few hours.  Any child born within that light-"
Harry -      "Is starborn. I get it. What does it mean?"
Ebenezar - "Power against the Outsiders.  Among other things, that their minds can't be magically tainted by contact with anything from Outside.  Which means.."

Which means to me, why the hell was Morgan, the Merlin and anyone else on the White Council; who knows about Nemesis and what it means to be starborn, afraid that Harry was "molded to be a creature of Nemesis."?  That last quote is from Morgan's Microfiction.

Didn't they know that Harry is starborn?  Rereading Morgan's Microfiction for the umptieth time, he doesn't say anything about Harry being starborn, so I suppose it's possible Morgan didn't know.  But Morgan should have known that that possibility existed, unless he didn't know anything about being starborn.

Let me stop for a moment and say why Morgan should have known that Harry might be starborn.  Morgan states that he failed to keep his promise to Margaret to protect her child.  So Margaret LeFay contacted Morgan when she was pregnant.  I doubt it was a face to face meeting because the Wardens had been ordered to arrest Margaret on site and Morgan was a stickler for following orders, but I digress.  The possibility of being starborn only happens once every 666 years.  You would think that the higher ups in the White Council would be hyper aware of this date.  Do you see the issue here and the problems it might create?

Morgan should have been able to put two and two together and realized what Margaret was doing or at least suspected she was trying to create a starborn child.  Even if Morgan didn't find out about Margaret's death until a few days after it occurred, he should have wanted to establish the time of her death and Harry's birth.  Unless Morgan didn't know anything about being starborn or perhaps he had heard the term, but didn't know what it meant.  So under this scenario, Morgan knew about Nemesis but didn't know anything about people who are starborn.  I suppose that is possible, but it seems a bit weak to me.

What about the Merlin and others on the senior Council?  What is their excuse?  Surely, when they heard that Margaret LeFey had died while giving birth, they should have been asking what day she died and what time it was.  Shouldn't they have a calendar with the date and time for people who are going to be starborn marked off?  Wouldn't they have been checking the birthdate and time of birth of anyone showing enough magical talent
to be admitted to the Council, so they would know if that person was starborn?  We know that Ebenezar and Listen's to Winds know that Harry is starborn.  They can't be the only one's on the Council who knows this. 

Unless, they do know, but only Ebenezar knows that being starborn insures protection against Outsiders.  If that was the case, why didn't Ebenzar just tell the members of the Senior Council that Harry couldn't be tainted by Nemesis?  I understand that wizards don't like revealing secrets, but this idea borders on the ridiculous.

Other potential problems with this passage: 

Is Elaine starborn or not?  Because if she is, that kills the OP and a big chunk of a thread I started about Elaine being nemfected.  On the positive side, it might explain why Jim hasn't given us a straight yes or no answer to Elaine's starborn status.  So, I could still be right.

Was the White Council trying to create their own starborn?  Because, if Eb and maybe LTW are the only ones on the White Council who knows what being starborn means, it kills that idea.  It would also kill the idea I had that Harry being a destroyer is related to him being starborn.  I think this is highly unlikely, so if the Council wanted their own starborn, was that Elaine?  Did they fail or did they succeed?  We don't know.

Aside from knowing the date and time someone was born, is their another way to detect that someone is starborn?  Lea, Mab, Lash and I assume Odin/Vadderung know when Harry was born.  How did the Erl King in Cold Days and Drakul in Battleground know that Harry is starborn?  For that matter, how did Mavra know?  She specifically told one of the other Black Court vamps that Drakul got to eat anyone who is starborn.  Is there some supernatural data broker selling information on who is starborn or is there something in Harry's aura that clues them in?  A bit off track, but if it is something in Harry's aura that clues-in the characters mentioned above, can Bob see it?  Would Bob know what it means? 

Getting back to Elaine, if being starborn is something that can be detected with supernatural powers, Titania must know if Elaine is starborn, because she would be able to detect it.  You would think that those in the White Council who are in-the-know about what being starborn means would want to create their own starborn detector.  Times and dates of birth can be fudged or simply mistaken. 

I'm trying to create a narrative where all of this makes sense, but it's a bit difficult.  Most of the Senior Council doesn't know that Harry is starborn.
I refuse to believe that, at least for now.  So, the Senior Council knows that Harry is starborn, but for some unknown reason think he might be vulnerable to Nemesis.  Being a destroyer that Morgan feared might be related to Harry being starborn, but it might be something else.  A lot of supernatural heavyweights and at least one supernatural middleweight know that Harry is starborn, but we aren't exactly sure how all of them got this information.  Elaine might also be starborn, but she might not be one.  If Elaine is starborn, then she can't be nemfected, unless there is a exception that can allow Nemesis to posses someone who is starborn.  While this would explain why Morgan and the Senior Council feared and still fear Harry, it completely violates what Ebenezar told Harry in the long quote above.



     

   

[Tinfoil hat]

OK, I'm not really angry, but this quote from Peace Talks just might derail several ideas that I and other readers have been discussing the past week or two.  More than that, it confuses Jim's narrative.  Jim probably has it all worked out so it will make sense, but I still find it annoying.  So without further delay, here is what Ebenezar said to Harry in Peace Talks about what it means to be Starborn.

Ebenezar - "Every couple or three generations, the stars lineup just right, and what amounts to a spotlight plays over the earth for a few hours.  Any child born within that light-"
Harry -      "Is starborn. I get it. What does it mean?"
Ebenezar - "Power against the Outsiders.  Among other things, that their minds can't be magically tainted by contact with anything from Outside.  Which means.."

Which means to me, why the hell was Morgan, the Merlin and anyone else on the White Council; who knows about Nemesis and what it means to be starborn, afraid that Harry was "molded to be a creature of Nemesis."?  That last quote is from Morgan's Microfiction.

Didn't they know that Harry is starborn?  Rereading Morgan's Microfiction for the umptieth time, he doesn't say anything about Harry being starborn, so I suppose it's possible Morgan didn't know.  But Morgan should have known that that possibility existed, unless he didn't know anything about being starborn.

Let me stop for a moment and say why Morgan should have known that Harry might be starborn.  Morgan states that he failed to keep his promise to Margaret to protect her child.  So Margaret LeFay contacted Morgan when she was pregnant.  I doubt it was a face to face meeting because the Wardens had been ordered to arrest Margaret on site and Morgan was a stickler for following orders, but I digress.  The possibility of being starborn only happens once every 666 years.  You would think that the higher ups in the White Council would be hyper aware of this date.  Do you see the issue here and the problems it might create?

Morgan should have been able to put two and two together and realized what Margaret was doing or at least suspected she was trying to create a starborn child.  Even if Morgan didn't find out about Margaret's death until a few days after it occurred, he should have wanted to establish the time of her death and Harry's birth.  Unless Morgan didn't know anything about being starborn or perhaps he had heard the term, but didn't know what it meant.  So under this scenario, Morgan knew about Nemesis but didn't know anything about people who are starborn.  I suppose that is possible, but it seems a bit weak to me.

What about the Merlin and others on the senior Council?  What is their excuse?  Surely, when they heard that Margaret LeFey had died while giving birth, they should have been asking what day she died and what time it was.  Shouldn't they have a calendar with the date and time for people who are going to be starborn marked off?  Wouldn't they have been checking the birthdate and time of birth of anyone showing enough magical talent
to be admitted to the Council, so they would know if that person was starborn?  We know that Ebenezar and Listen's to Winds know that Harry is starborn.  They can't be the only one's on the Council who knows this. 

Unless, they do know, but only Ebenezar knows that being starborn insures protection against Outsiders.  If that was the case, why didn't Ebenzar just tell the members of the Senior Council that Harry couldn't be tainted by Nemesis?  I understand that wizards don't like revealing secrets, but this idea borders on the ridiculous.

Other potential problems with this passage: 

Is Elaine starborn or not?  Because if she is, that kills the OP and a big chunk of a thread I started about Elaine being nemfected.  On the positive side, it might explain why Jim hasn't given us a straight yes or no answer to Elaine's starborn status.  So, I could still be right.

Was the White Council trying to create their own starborn?  Because, if Eb and maybe LTW are the only ones on the White Council who knows what being starborn means, it kills that idea.  It would also kill the idea I had that Harry being a destroyer is related to him being starborn.  I think this is highly unlikely, so if the Council wanted their own starborn, was that Elaine?  Did they fail or did they succeed?  We don't know.

Aside from knowing the date and time someone was born, is their another way to detect that someone is starborn?  Lea, Mab, Lash and I assume Odin/Vadderung know when Harry was born.  How did the Erl King in Cold Days and Drakul in Battleground know that Harry is starborn?  For that matter, how did Mavra know?  She specifically told one of the other Black Court vamps that Drakul got to eat anyone who is starborn.  Is there some supernatural data broker selling information on who is starborn or is there something in Harry's aura that clues them in?  A bit off track, but if it is something in Harry's aura that clues-in the characters mentioned above, can Bob see it?  Would Bob know what it means? 

Getting back to Elaine, if being starborn is something that can be detected with supernatural powers, Titania must know if Elaine is starborn, because she would be able to detect it.  You would think that those in the White Council who are in-the-know about what being starborn means would want to create their own starborn detector.  Times and dates of birth can be fudged or simply mistaken. 

I'm trying to create a narrative where all of this makes sense, but it's a bit difficult.  Most of the Senior Council doesn't know that Harry is starborn.
I refuse to believe that, at least for now.  So, the Senior Council knows that Harry is starborn, but for some unknown reason think he might be vulnerable to Nemesis.  Being a destroyer that Morgan feared might be related to Harry being starborn, but it might be something else.  A lot of supernatural heavyweights and at least one supernatural middleweight know that Harry is starborn, but we aren't exactly sure how all of them got this information.  Elaine might also be starborn, but she might not be one.  If Elaine is starborn, then she can't be nemfected, unless there is a exception that can allow Nemesis to posses someone who is starborn.  While this would explain why Morgan and the Senior Council feared and still fear Harry, it completely violates what Ebenezar told Harry in the long quote above.



     

   

Being nemfected isnt the only way to be controlled just regular old mind control from a mortal warlock will do that (Peabody,  Molly etc). Other cases include vampire whammies from any of  the Courts the Lawyer in White night? ( cant remembers which book), Fae mind control (when Mab made harry forget Fire magic). The last one is impressive cause casting fire like swimming to a fish for Harry
The White Council has no way of know what code was placed in Harry by what and by whom.
And remember at one point in turncoat harry mentions that its difficult to find out what idea was placed in someone's mind if the person was subtle enough and knew what they where doing.
So Justin or his allies could have hidden secret codes in harry's mind so subtly that detection is almost impossible and the code and trigger are so subtle that harry has no way of knowing that he is being controlled.
In this light i think the mistrust is warranted.
Put on the paranoia hat for a moment and follow me down the rabbit hole.
Justin is a pawn for some group and the plan for him to train and corrupt the starborn. Unknow to justin, there is a code in Harry to kill Justin and the captured by the WC gain their trust and then when the time is right, Harry starts a war with a relatively minor power somehow that lasts for years weakening the White Council. In that time he forges alliances with members of the SC and junior members of the council. Even forms alliances with the Fae and the mob. Makes a mortal a member of the unseelie accords. Becomes the WARDEN and who knows what else. Good thing none of these things have ever happened.....Ohh... wait

[Mira]

OK, I'm not really angry, but this quote from Peace Talks just might derail several ideas that I and other readers have been discussing the past week or two.  More than that, it confuses Jim's narrative.  Jim probably has it all worked out so it will make sense, but I still find it annoying.  So without further delay, here is what Ebenezar said to Harry in Peace Talks about what it means to be Starborn.

Ebenezar - "Every couple or three generations, the stars lineup just right, and what amounts to a spotlight plays over the earth for a few hours.  Any child born within that light-"
Harry -      "Is starborn. I get it. What does it mean?"
Ebenezar - "Power against the Outsiders.  Among other things, that their minds can't be magically tainted by contact with anything from Outside.  Which means.."

I agree, it is confusing.  My problem is at any given moment, thousands if not millions of babies are born across the world.  If it is the right moment with the stars lined up just right, are they "all" star born?  So there are hundreds if not thousands who the Outsiders have no power over, but unless these star born are connected to the supernatural world does it matter?  I am thinking more goes into conceiving a star born child than just the stars being lined up just right, Lash hinted at that.  Also why does Harry's attitude seem so different from the other two star born we've met, Listens and Drakul.  I still think the key is Malcolm.

As to the rest of the Senior Council at any rate not knowing or being able to figure out that Harry was or wasn't star born.  I think they had to have known, but because they didn't trust Margaret, they couldn't trust Harry, so have selective memory.  Or more to the point, they may have known when Harry was born, but since being star born is a bit more complicated than when the child was born, they could only suspect but without verification, prove that Harry was star born.  Or as Rashid remarked in Cold Days, the Council, including the Senior Council,  "knows only what it needs to know about his and Harry's work, and that isn't much."  Maybe because Harry's birth was also tied up with the Winter Court, only the very few close to Eb and Margaret know the details about Harry's birth?

Elaine is all over the map as far as is she or isn't she a star born..  We don't even know when her birthday is, was she born on the same day at the same time as Harry?  If not, can she still be star born?  Is there a astrological window for the alignment of the stars to make it possible?  Justin did manage for a time to enthrall her, which is something no one has been able to do to Harry so far at least.  Lasciel may have come the closest, but basically she fool him as opposed to enthrall him, and once he figured that out she had no power over him.  Yet there is a couple of passages in Summer Knight that suggest that Elaine wasn't enthralled.  Where Harry says that Elaine enabled his escape from Justin because of the knots she used to tie him up and used the same ones when Aurora ordered her to tie him up. Another point, supposedly the Wardens go around testing prospective wizards and Elaine held back so they wouldn't know how powerful she really was.. When they do their testing, why are the Wardens not doing soul gazes as well?   No, might not reveal Nemesis infestation, but could establish a lot about the talent and whether he or she is headed down a dark path or not. Again though supposedly Harry and Elaine soul gazed at some point, Harry has never said what he saw in that gaze though he has revealed at least something that he saw in the other soul gazes he has had that we know of.