Elaine is the wizard the White Council should really be afraid of.

[Mira]

Unless Harry looked into a mirror while using his Sight, there is no way he should know what the sign of HWWB looks like or that he even carries it.  I picture Harry learning about it in one of two, maybe three ways, the last one being the most likely one.

Death Masks, Harry consults with a Loa or Ulsharavas;
  The Ulsharavas would have seen any shadow of an Outsider on Harry if it was there I think.  It said that Harry was stained with the taint of black magic.  Harry answered that not all of it was his, but admitted that he had made a bad call or two, now whether he meant when he killed Justin or not, it doesn't say.  The Ulsharavas says it appreciated Harry's honesty and agrees to look into what Harry is asking.  The Ulsharavas said nothing about the taint or shadow of an Outsider about him, if it was there I think the Loa would have seen it.   The Loa did ask Harry why he does what he does, getting involved with the problems of others? Harry had no answer, he didn't know.  The Ulsharavas remarked that maybe he should know.  So either being around an Outsider leaves the taint of black magic, or whatever the Three Eye addict saw, the Ulsharavas couldn't or didn't see it.

[g33k]

I do not believe Outsider-taint is that easily detected; not even via soulgaze.
The Gatekeeper -- likely the preeminent wizard in the field -- cannot reliably detect it.

If it were all that easy... there are plenty of Wardens.  Just get a new Soulgaze on a suspect, and bam you found the taint.

And Nemesis is even harder than other Outsiders:  Titania and Mab cannot detect it, only infer it after the fact.  (I'm unclear that taint/possession is even all that common a trick amongst the Outsider crowd; do we have any other instances that we know are not Nemesis?)

[Mira]

I do not believe Outsider-taint is that easily detected; not even via soulgaze.
The Gatekeeper -- likely the preeminent wizard in the field -- cannot reliably detect it.

If it were all that easy... there are plenty of Wardens.  Just get a new Soulgaze on a suspect, and bam you found the taint.

And Nemesis is even harder than other Outsiders:  Titania and Mab cannot detect it, only infer it after the fact.  (I'm unclear that taint/possession is even all that common a trick amongst the Outsider crowd; do we have any other instances that we know are not Nemesis?)

What are you suggesting?  That the taint of an Outsider is on Harry and that is what the addict saw?  That Eb couldn't see it in a soul gaze, nor the Loa, nor Rashid, who I believed did his own scan of Harry with his eye?  Even if he saw the spiritual scar or taint, did it really mean anything?  Does it mean that Harry is possessed in any way?  Or does it mean something else?

Let's check out what the exact quote is from Storm Front.  page 134-135

Then something strange happened.
   The young man looked up at me, and his eyes rounded and dilated, until I thought they had turned into huge black coins dotted onto his blooThey dshot eyeballs.  His eyes rolled back into his head until he could hardly have been able to see, and he started to shout in a clarion voice.  "Wizard!"  I see you!  I see you,wizard!  I see the things that follow, those who walk before and He Who Walks Behind! They come, they come for you!"

The junkie said he saw things that follow, not something that is part of Harry.
Then on page 136 Harry says he had never met the junkie, and he didn't sense any magical practitioner. So how paraphrasing, "in the hell had he seen the shadow of He Who Walks Behind in Harry's wake?" Harry goes on to admit that he is marked, indelibly with the remnants of the hunter-spirit known as He Who Walks Behind, though the Outsider didn't succeed in what it was trying to do. Then he says those who know how, using the Third Eye would spot the sort of spiritual scar left from the encounter.  But this was an addict, not trained to either spot the scar or taint, nor to recognize it if he saw it.

Then Harry says; page 136

only a wizard had that kind of vision, the ability to sense the auras and manifestations of magical phenomena. And that junkie had been no wizard.

That last is the important bit, that junkie had been no wizard.  Didn't know Harry, or at least Harry hadn't seen him before, yet the junkie was calling Harry, wizard. Yeah, maybe he looked Harry up in the phone book, but still the junkie had to know what made a wizard to call Harry, a wizard!  Let alone what an Outsider was, by name even!  Harry goes on to say on the next page that the Third Eye allows wizards to see things supernaturally invisible or other things as they really are.  Examples of that are when Harry made the mistake of looking at the Skin Walker with his third eye, the horror of that encounter turned him into a fetal ball, or when he saw Murphy with it and saw an angel.  My point? Because he is a trained wizard, Harry knew what he was looking at.. He also said that wizards learn to be very careful with that vision because it can harm them.. As Mac told him only recently, the real vision of who he is would kill or drive Harry mad. 

Yet this addict knew all of the stuff he told Harry!  The important point isn't that Harry bears some spiritual scar from his encounter with HWWB as a sixteen year old, call it a taint if you want, its of no importance.. What is important is who is trying to train up and teach these addicts?  This happened with Sells, ordinary man with a little talent that exploited, turned him into a sorcerer.. He was also one of those making and pushing the Third Eye drug.  To what purpose? 

They come, they come for you!

In other words it is a bit of a warning to Harry, the Outsiders were still after him. 

[g33k]

...  Harry and Elaine have soulgazed.  Unless she was nemfected afterward, I'd think it would have shown up.

I'm pretty sure they soulgazed right around the time they became lovers.
Plenty of romantic "gazing into one  anothers' eyes"moments...  Pretty darned hard to avoid, in fact!

My pick for when she got Nemfected would be at the very end; Elaine said Justin "enthralled" her, but I suspect either that the "enthrallment" was intentionally exposing her to Nemfection, or that in the dazed state just after Harry killed(?) Justin -- when we already know HWWB was in the field -- she got Nemfected as a vector into Summer.

[Mira]

I'm pretty sure they soulgazed right around the time they became lovers.
Plenty of romantic "gazing into one  anothers' eyes"moments...  Pretty darned hard to avoid, in fact!

My pick for when she got Nemfected would be at the very end; Elaine said Justin "enthralled" her, but I suspect either that the "enthrallment" was intentionally exposing her to Nemfection, or that in the dazed state just after Harry killed(?) Justin -- when we already know HWWB was in the field -- she got Nemfected as a vector into Summer.

You could be right, but then again, depending on how early they became lovers, could have been as early as thirteen or fourteen years of age.  Remember when Harry fought HWWB he had just turned sixteen, and had no clue as to what was attacking him.. Or Harry and Elaine soul gazed by accident unless specifically taught by Justin what a soul gaze was and how it worked.  If it was by accident it could have happened as early as the age of twelve.. At any rate, even if he saw Nemesis or the taint of an Outsider in her, he wouldn't have known what he was seeing.  He may know now, but we have never heard Harry ever talk about what he saw in his soul gaze with Elaine.  He has mentioned before what he has seen in other soul gazes, but never what he saw in the one he had with Elaine.

[g33k]

... At any rate, even if he saw Nemesis or the taint of an Outsider in her, he wouldn't have known what he was seeing.  He may know now, but we have never heard Harry ever talk about what he saw in his soul gaze with Elaine.  He has mentioned before what he has seen in other soul gazes, but never what he saw in the one he had with Elaine.

Harry has also mentioned that the Soulgaze (like other Wizards' Sight phenomena) are "do not dim with time" experiences.  So Harry still remembers (with 100% clarity) the teenaged soulgaze with Elaine, and can consult it with his modern perspective.

If Outsider-traces were there -- and detectible -- modern-day Harry would know.

OTOH, you're right that it'd be really interesting to know exactly what he did see, when he soulgazed Elaine!

[g33k]

What are you suggesting? ...

Mainly, I'm refuting the idea that Elaine's Nemfected-or-Not status is something a soulgaze (or any other magical inspection really) is likely to detect.

[Mira]

Mainly, I'm refuting the idea that Elaine's Nemfected-or-Not status is something a soulgaze (or any other magical inspection really) is likely to detect.

Very possible, but one still has to know or have some idea of what they are looking at.  At the age that Harry and Elaine soul gazed, Harry would have no clue that he was looking at Outsider taint or Nemesis.  To your point, Eb soul gazed 16 year old Harry after the fight with HWWB and while Eb mentions seeing anger, he makes no mention of Harry being tainted by either an Outsider or Nemesis.  I think Eb would know that kind of taint if he saw it in a soul gaze.

[KurtinStGeorge]

I am beginning to doubt that a soulgaze can detect Nemesis. I’m not where I can grab my copy of Cold Days, but doesn’t the Gate Keeper need his special eye; that is made from the same material as the Outer Gates itself, to detect Nemesis in a Winter soldier who is wounded and is being brought back through the Gates to our reality?  Granted, that the fae are not human, but Rashid used that eye to scan Harry in Turn Coat, rather than soulgazing him.  So, I’m guessing Rashid’s special eye is a better tool for this purpose or possibly the only tool he has for this purpose.

Let’s look at who soulgazed Harry and why this gives us a clue about detecting Nemesis.  The Merlin personally soulgazed the teenage warlock who was executed at the beginning of Proven Guilty, prior to his trial.  So, this makes me think that before his trial someone from the Council must have soulgazed Harry.

I think it was Ebenezar; because I also believe it would have been mentioned if Warden Morgan or the Merlin had soulgazed Harry.  In all of the occasions when Harry has talked about either of those two characters, you would think that experience would have been mentioned by now.  We know Eb soulgazed Harry at some point in time, just not exactly when.  In Summer Knight Harry says he “shared a soulgaze” with Eb at sometime in the past, but is non-specific about the circumstances of that soulgaze.

It may not be likely, but I suppose it is also possible that prior to his trial someone else on the Council soulgazed Harry.  However, I don’t think it would be very good writing if in a future novel a member of the Wardens or anyone else on the Council; we haven’t been introduced to yet, would suddenly appear and say to Harry, “You remember me, of course.  I soulgazed you right after you were captured.”  That kind of writing would feel like like something I would see on the CW, some Netflix show or recent Disney series.  I don’t think Jim would do that, I’m just trying to cover all possible bases here.

Here’s the main point I’m trying to make.  It doesn’t matter if Ebenezar or some unknown character on the White Council soulgazed Harry.  This unknown character would be someone with experience and the trust of the Senior Council.  So either Eb or this notional character should have been able to recognize if Harry had been tampered with by Nemesis.  Right?

Not only that, both Eb and my unknown character would have had a duty to tell the Council that Harry had been tampered with, no matter how much it would have hurt Ebenezar to do so.  On the other hand, Ebenezar and my make believe character’s sworn word should have been enough for Morgan, the Merlin and the rest of the Senior Council to know that Harry was not tainted by Nemesis. 

That is, unless the Wardens and Senior Council do not believe a soulgaze can detect Nemesis.  It could be, the hidden personality inside someone tainted by Nemesis is buried so deep, it can’t be seen by a soulgaze, unless Nemesis wants to be seen.

Once again, I am obliquely reminded of the Babylon 5 character Talia Winter’s, who had to have a special psychic password sent to her to force her hidden personality to the surface.  Lyra Alexander; the other telepath on Babylon 5, couldn’t just scan Talia to find this personality.  She needed a special psychic tool to do what needed to be done.  Much like the Gate Keeper needs his special eye to detect Nemesis. 

[Mira]

I am beginning to doubt that a soulgaze can detect Nemesis. I’m not where I can grab my copy of Cold Days, but doesn’t the Gate Keeper need his special eye; that is made from the same material as the Outer Gates itself, to detect Nemesis in a Winter soldier who is wounded and is being brought back through the Gates to our reality?  Granted, that the fae are not human, but Rashid used that eye to scan Harry in Turn Coat, rather than soulgazing him.  So, I’m guessing Rashid’s special eye is a better tool for this purpose or possibly the only tool he has for this purpose.

I agree for the most part, however I am not totally convinced that a soul gaze or perhaps the wizard's "third eye" might also spot it.  However I also remember Rashid telling Harry not to attempt it, that it takes a huge amount of experience and then easy to get wrong. So it's possible if it was there, that Eb, because of age and experience might have spotted it, if it was there when he soul gazed young Harry, but not a sure thing.  Extremely doubtful that young Harry with no experience or knowledge of Outsiders or Nemesis would have spotted it in a soul gaze with Elaine.

Let’s look at who soulgazed Harry and why this gives us a clue about detecting Nemesis.  The Merlin personally soulgazed the teenage warlock who was executed at the beginning of Proven Guilty, prior to his trial.  So, this makes me think that before his trial someone from the Council must have soulgazed Harry.

That was Eb, he mentions it in Blood Rites and said he saw a lot of anger, talent, and power, but nothing not redeemable.
It isn't said whether another also soul gazed Harry, what's the point of doing it twice?  Though I supposed because he was his grandson Eb wanted to make sure if Harry was going to get the chop it was for the right reasons.  As the Blackstaff no one would argue with him doing it.

Here’s the main point I’m trying to make.  It doesn’t matter if Ebenezar or some unknown character on the White Council soulgazed Harry.  This unknown character would be someone with experience and the trust of the Senior Council.  So either Eb or this notional character should have been able to recognize if Harry had been tampered with by Nemesis.  Right?

If we go by Molly's trial, a Warden typically does the soul gaze and testifies as to what he or she saw.  Harry soul gazed Molly, and as Warden testified as to what he saw.  Interesting that Morgan didn't insist on soul gazing Harry, you'd think that he would given his misgivings.

Not only that, both Eb and my unknown character would have had a duty to tell the Council that Harry had been tampered with, no matter how much it would have hurt Ebenezar to do so.  On the other hand, Ebenezar and my make believe character’s sworn word should have been enough for Morgan, the Merlin and the rest of the Senior Council to know that Harry was not tainted by Nemesis.

That is, unless the Wardens and Senior Council do not believe a soulgaze can detect Nemesis.  It could be, the hidden personality inside someone tainted by Nemesis is buried so deep, it can’t be seen by a soulgaze, unless Nemesis wants to be seen.

That is if the White Council is even worried about Outsiders or Nemesis, with the exception of Rashid and Harry I think it is unlikely that they are for the most part.  Rashid hints at this, that even the Senior Council knows very little about what he really does at the Gates, and apparently Rashid tells them very little.  When a potential young warlock is soul gazed, what they are interested in is how far down that road he or she has traveled and if he or she can be redeemed.. However I doubt they look very far beyond that.

Once again, I am obliquely reminded of the Babylon 5 character Talia Winter’s, who had to have a special psychic password sent to her to force her hidden personality to the surface.  Lyra Alexander; the other telepath on Babylon 5, couldn’t just scan Talia to find this personality.  She needed a special psychic tool to do what needed to be done.  Much like the Gate Keeper needs his special eye to detect Nemesis. 

That was also because Talia Winters was a psychic herself, and it was all part of the intrigue with the Psychcorps and Bester, it's been a while since I saw B5.  However I do remember the episode where Talia was required to scan a convicted criminal before he was sentenced. Since he knew what she was going to do, the murderer in turn screwed with her mind. It is possible that Nemesis could do the same thing if it was detected in a scan.. I believe that was one of the reasons why Rashid told Harry not to attempt it.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Interesting that Morgan didn't insist on soul gazing Harry, you'd think that he would given his misgivings.

That is if the White Council is even worried about Outsiders or Nemesis, with the exception of Rashid and Harry I think it is unlikely that they are for the most part.  Rashid hints at this, that even the Senior Council knows very little about what he really does at the Gates, and apparently Rashid tells them very little.  When a potential young warlock is soul gazed, what they are interested in is how far down that road he or she has traveled and if he or she can be redeemed.. However I doubt they look very far beyond that.

From the Donald Morgan Microfiction:
"From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis."

Morgan knew about Nemesis and that means that the Merlin knew.  I don't think it matters if the rest of the Senior Council knew, though I would guess that least one or two of them did.

As far as the reference to Harry possibly being a "destroyer," I think that is almost certainly tied up with Harry being starborn.  One more key element, or maybe the key element, that we do not yet understand about what it means to be starborn.  It is probably what Martha Liberty meant when she said to Ebenezar about Harry in Summer Knight, "You know what he was meant to be. He's too great a risk. "

That was also because Talia Winters was a psychic herself, and it was all part of the intrigue with the Psychcorps and Bester, it's been a while since I saw B5.  However I do remember the episode where Talia was required to scan a convicted criminal before he was sentenced. Since he knew what she was going to do, the murderer in turn screwed with her mind. It is possible that Nemesis could do the same thing if it was detected in a scan.. I believe that was one of the reasons why Rashid told Harry not to attempt it.

I've wondered about the same thing.  Can Nemesis do something that would cause serious harm to a wizard that was soulgazing a person that nemesis was hiding in?  Screw with that wizards mind or what about infecting that wizard?  It is something that I would consider asking Jim about the next time he does a Reddit Q&A session or if I were to see him in person at a Con or book signing.

[Mira]

From the Donald Morgan Microfiction:
"From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis."

Morgan knew about Nemesis and that means that the Merlin knew.  I don't think it matters if the rest of the Senior Council knew, though I would guess that least one or two of them did.

Which is an interesting statement, because if they knew what Nemesis was and feared that Harry might be under the influence, why didn't they just ask Rashid to have a look at him?  Or really check Harry out with their wizard sight?  And yes, it can be done.

page 339 Cold Days;

I nodded, thinking. "Okay," I said.  "First, how do you know if the adversary has. . .infested someone?"  "Experience," he said.  "Decades of it.  The Sight can help but. . . Rashid hesitated.  I recognized it instantly, the hiccup in one's thoughts when one stumbled over a truly hideous memory gained with the Sight, like I had with-- Ugh. -- the naagloshii.  I don't recommend making a regular practice of it," he continued.  "It's an art, not a skill, and it takes time. Time, or a bit of questionable attention from the Fates and a ridiculously enormous tool."  He tapped a finger against his false eye.

You'd think the Merlin, even Morgan would have experience enough, maybe Eb was the only one outside of Rashid who could handle looking at Harry with the Sight?  I am thinking that maybe as Rashid said before, the Council really doesn't know what he does, because he easily could have settled the matter about young Harry being infested or not

As far as the reference to Harry possibly being a "destroyer," I think that is almost certainly tied up with Harry being starborn.  One more key element, or maybe the key element, that we do not yet understand about what it means to be starborn.  It is probably what Martha Liberty meant when she said to Ebenezar about Harry in Summer Knight, "You know what he was meant to be. He's too great a risk. "

Which makes me wonder and I have written about this before whether or not the White Council was itself trying to breed it's own starborn, one that they can control.. When Margaret took matters into her own hands so to speak, the Council still got a starborn, but not one they could control.  The Council knows what it wanted him or her for, but not what Margaret wanted, so Harry couldn't be trusted.

[g33k]

Which is an interesting statement, because if they knew what Nemesis was and feared that Harry might be under the influence, why didn't they just ask Rashid to have a look at him?  Or really check Harry out with their wizard sight?  And yes, it can be done...

I think Rashid's Eye is likely the best tool; but I don't think even that is 100% foolproof.  And I don't believe anyone on the Council -- not even Eb or the Merlin -- really understands what Rashid does as "Gatekeeper."  It's a role that transcends the White Council, and is not subject to WC rules, or rulings.  They cannot order the Gatekeeper to do anything (they can order Rashid, as WC wizard; but nothing in regards to his duties or identity as Gatekeeper).

... Which makes me wonder and I have written about this before whether or not the White Council was itself trying to breed it's own starborn, one that they can control.. When Margaret took matters into her own hands so to speak, the Council still got a starborn, but not one they could control.  The Council knows what it wanted him or her for, but not what Margaret wanted, so Harry couldn't be trusted.

We are pretty sure that a "Black Council" cabal -- including Duchess Arianna & Raith Père -- had recruited Margaret LeFey to be the mother of a Starbabe that they would control.  Instead, she broke free from Lord Raith ... and unexpectedly found true love, and bore a Starborn child with Malcolm Dresden!

My own theory is that it was all a plot of Mab's, in search of an adequate Knight for the upcoming apocalypse:  setting Maggie first on that "starbabe" path, and then getting her out from under Black Council influence.

I think it reasonably-likely that the White Council had their own "starbabe plan," though I think there's less evidence in canonical texts or in WoJ's (anyone got cites?) ...

Here's a fun theory:  Elaine was the WC's plan, and they "lost track" of her too (likely a Mab or Lea machination); then when she re-surfaced, she seemed to be a "failed attempt" (in that she carefully showed up during tests as not-quite-WC-caliber).  It'd be a nice element of how Jim writes Elaine as Harry's "opposite number" in many regards.

[Mira]

I think Rashid's Eye is likely the best tool; but I don't think even that is 100% foolproof.  And I don't believe anyone on the Council -- not even Eb or the Merlin -- really understands what Rashid does as "Gatekeeper."  It's a role that transcends the White Council, and is not subject to WC rules, or rulings.  They cannot order the Gatekeeper to do anything (they can order Rashid, as WC wizard; but nothing in regards to his duties or identity as Gatekeeper).

Nothing is fool proof, and I agree that the Council have no idea the significance of either Rashid's job, or Harry's job for that matter, Rashid said as much in Cold Days.  I wouldn't say the job as Gatekeeper transcends the Council, apparently if the general view is the one that Harry had the first time he saw the Gates that they cannot be real, they are supposed to be a metaphor.  So I think rulings from Council can transcend, but rulings are rare.  I also think if the Council was really interested in whether or not young Harry was infested they would have done a better job of checking him out.  And since it is Rashid's main job or one of them to keep Outsiders out, I doubt he'd object to doing a scan himself, in fact I'd think he'd insist. 

We are pretty sure that a "Black Council" cabal -- including Duchess Arianna & Raith Père -- had recruited Margaret LeFey to be the mother of a Starbabe that they would control.  Instead, she broke free from Lord Raith ... and unexpectedly found true love, and bore a Starborn child with Malcolm Dresden!

Perhaps, but I am just as sure that the White Council wanted to breed a starborn of their own.. Margaret refused to be used by either side.  At some point she changed her mind and had a star born child with Malcolm.  What changed her mind?  No doubt she had been to the Gates, she and Rashid were close friends, Mab and Lea may also have had a hand in it.

Here's a fun theory:  Elaine was the WC's plan, and they "lost track" of her too (likely a Mab or Lea machination); then when she re-surfaced, she seemed to be a "failed attempt" (in that she carefully showed up during tests as not-quite-WC-caliber).  It'd be a nice element of how Jim writes Elaine as Harry's "opposite number" in many regards.

I don't think the White Council even tested Elaine, after Harry killed Justin she fled to Summer where she stayed for a number of years and might very well have infested Aurora.  After that she kept such a low profile that she attracted no more notice from the Council than the other low level talents making up the Paranet.

[g33k]

... I don't think the White Council even tested Elaine, after Harry killed Justin she fled to Summer where she stayed for a number of years and might very well have infested Aurora.  After that she kept such a low profile that she attracted no more notice from the Council than the other low level talents making up the Paranet.

They didn't test her in the DuMorne aftermath, no (when they collected Harry); they never connected her with DuMorne; she only appeared on-scene much later.

Warden Ramirez tested Elaine, out in LA.  Harry called to "check up on her bona fides" & Carlos confirmed it.

She wasn't quite up to WC standards... but she was close, and recognizably well-trained in WC fundamentals.

He joked that if the Rampire War continued its horrible attrition, they might have to lower their standards a little bit -- just to keep WC numbers up -- and she'd be in.