Author Topic: Dragon Con points of interest  (Read 1760 times)

Offline Yuillegan

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Dragon Con points of interest
« on: September 11, 2024, 11:46:02 AM »
Firstly, its been a while since I have posted so it's good to be back.

Secondly, great to see some more information coming from Jim! While Twelve Months is unlikely to be published this year, I am hopeful that we might get it as early as next year.

Now, to the information from Dragon Con.

Drakul
"He found Kemmler funny". Which should tell us all we need to know about how evil Drakul is, right there. If Mab thought Kemmler was insane, it really shows how dark Drakul must be.

"Kemmler spoiled some of his [Drakul's] plans but nothing serious...he [Drakul] found all the murder funny". Given how much impact Kemmler has had on things e.g. the only two World Wars in recorded history, the fact that he successfully sustained a war on the White Council for over a century and it likely took the largest Nuke ever to defeat him (which I know contradicts the whole thing about locking his magic down and chainsawing him and burning him BUT it also literally happened the same day in the same location...), and the fact Kemmler tried to become a dark god (and so did his disciples later, presumably to continue his plan-ish) and begin some sort of New World Order type-of-deal - the sheer fact that it barely disrupted Drakul and he found his antics merely amusing, really shows how endgame, dangerous and outright terrible Drakul's plans are. He is playing a long-game in the same way Vadderung is - and I wonder if they were peers, after a fashion, in the old, old days.

The Fallen
"How did the Fall happen if Fallen Angels don't have Free Will?" The Fallen had a chance but abused it, and so the Creator "went in another direction" which might suggest he bound all the non-Fallen thereafter (although it is implied Uriel could Fall, which suggests that all non-Fallen still have that one Choice). But interesting that the Creator didn't see it coming, or did but couldn't stop it, or did see it coming but allowed it to happen anyway. That's more of a philosophical one though.

Mab
Her story is tied up with Merlin's (the original character from the Arthurian legends). Which really only leaves two characters: Nimue and Morganna Le Fay. My guess is the latter and that Nimue/Vivian was simply Mab's predecessor. Particularly given that Mab had Morganna's Athame.

Bob
Bob's skull is the skull of the person who died to "birth" him. Given that spirits like Bob are created by a combination of a spirit-being and a mortal, we can only assume the skull was once a mortal's. Mab is the strongest candidate for his mother, but it doesn't leave many options. Old WOJ states it was a wizard called Etienne the Enchanter who made the skull, but this appears to have been retconned as Jim has said we have met Bob's parents.

Thoughts?
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Offline Mira

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Re: Dragon Con points of interest
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2024, 01:04:40 PM »
Quote
"He found Kemmler funny". Which should tell us all we need to know about how evil Drakul is, right there. If Mab thought Kemmler was insane, it really shows how dark Drakul must be.

 That is a very interesting comment.  Since Kemmler was into necromancy, or bringing the dead back to life, and Drakul is into bringing the dead back, but still dead.. That is if I understand correctly what both were doing, which I might not be, but one difference is I think Drakul still controls his undead vampires, I don't know that that is true of Kemmler. I don't think it was, or I don't remember Kumori saying that he did.   If for argument's sake Kemmler didn't control those he brought back I'd see where Drakul would think that was hilarious, as in, "what's the point?" 

On the Fallen, in my opinion Angels have always had free will, however as Angels there are rules they have to live by.  God calls the shots, not them even though they are powerful in their own right.  I think that's what Uriel was trying to explain to Harry, he has immense power but isn't so arrogant as to put himself as equal or more powerful than God.  He is free maybe to try it, but if he does, he will fall.  Yeah, the Creator didn't see it coming, because He couldn't conceive of any angel not understanding that.  We are running into that kind of thing a lot these days, stuff that clearly is ethically wrong, but there are no written rules against.  Why because back in the beginning those writing the rules thought it so plain and self evident that they couldn't see anyone in that position doing that unethical thing. 

I think in the case of Bob, since what he lives in is a skull, it did belong to a mortal who is now dead.. Or at least the body was mortal.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Dragon Con points of interest
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2024, 10:18:26 AM »
Perhaps Etienne the Enchanter was the mortal wizard who knew how to make the skull of the mortal who involuntarily gave birth to Bob, into a vessel Bob could permanently live in.  So no retcon needed.  Bob can possess a mortal or hide inside an inanimate object aside from his skull; we've seen that in an early novel, but I'm guessing there is some magic involved in making the skull something beyond a temporary hiding place.  Just like Harry didn't simply carve a wooden skull for Bonea, he used his magic to make that wooden skull into a home.  Though now that I think about it, Harry originally made that skull as a backup for Bob. 

We might or might not get Bob's full back story, but it's possible Etienne the Enchanter knew Bob's father before he died.  I wonder why it might become relevant for Harry to ask Bob about Bob's parents?  Answering my own question, perhaps Harry will want or need to understand what Bonea knows about Lashiel and Lash.  Does Bonnea just have the knowledge both Lash and Lashiel had or does Bonnea have deeper knowledge of who Lashiel and Lash are / were?  Even if Bonnea doesn't have the experience to understand this knowledge.  In this situation I could see Harry asking Bob what he knows about his mortal and spirit parent to give Harry a better understanding of Bonea.     
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Offline Mira

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Re: Dragon Con points of interest
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2024, 01:16:18 PM »
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Perhaps Etienne the Enchanter was the mortal wizard who knew how to make the skull of the mortal who involuntarily gave birth to Bob, into a vessel Bob could permanently live in.  So no retcon needed.  Bob can possess a mortal or hide inside an inanimate object aside from his skull; we've seen that in an early novel, but I'm guessing there is some magic involved in making the skull something beyond a temporary hiding place.  Just like Harry didn't simply carve a wooden skull for Bonea, he used his magic to make that wooden skull into a home.  Though now that I think about it, Harry originally made that skull as a backup for Bob.

I don't remember Harry saying he used magic to carve the skull.  Though we know from Ghost Story that the inside of Bob's skull home is very much a home, more like the TARDIS of DR WHO, bigger inside than outside.  However does Harry even know what kind of magic is needed to create that?  Though since it was originally made for Bob, I can see him giving Harry step by step instructions on how it is done.

Offline g33k

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Re: Dragon Con points of interest
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2024, 05:47:57 PM »
... the inside of Bob's skull home is very much a home, more like the TARDIS of DR WHO, bigger inside than outside ...

The physical space is irrelevant, though.  The "space" inside Bob's skull isn't "space" but a connection to (what I suspect is) a demesne within the Nevernever.

Offline Mira

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Re: Dragon Con points of interest
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2024, 09:59:25 PM »
The physical space is irrelevant, though.  The "space" inside Bob's skull isn't "space" but a connection to (what I suspect is) a demesne within the Nevernever.

  But it is relevant,  neither Bob nor Bonnie can be expected to live in a tiny brain space.  Bob clearly doesn't as we saw in Ghost Story, if what you say is true about a connection to the Nevernever, someone has to have the knowledge and talent to make that connection don' they?  I mean there are portals to the Nevernever, but one has to know where they are and how to open them up.  Harry carved that wooden scull as a backup home, but if he doesn't know how or cannot make that connection to make that space inside, what's the point?  Another problem with your idea, Bob avoids the Nevernever, so would he be happy with such an arrangement?   
« Last Edit: September 14, 2024, 02:30:46 PM by Mira »

Offline g33k

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Re: Dragon Con points of interest
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2024, 11:41:24 PM »
... But it is relevant,  neither Bob nor Bonnie can be expected to live in a tiny brain space ...
No, it's irrelevant; "space" (in the 3-dimensional sense) isn't what's involved.

Spirits can fit into arbitrarily-small spaces (through keyholes, under doors), but also expand into very large ones (such as when Bob filled Sue, or the brass lion).

Bob's skull not only fits Bob:  it has room for a guest, as Harry discovered.  What's more, the space didn't seem "cramped" -- several more could likely have visited, if it were needed.

So the inside of "Bob's Skull" offers more room to spirits than the physical space allows; more spirits can fit than brains can.  So too (most likely) the wooden skull that Bonea has; Harry was clear that his wooden skull was cruder and less capacious, but it's still similar, and "good enough."

... Harry carved that wooden scull as a backup home, but if he doesn't know how or cannot make that connection to make that space inside, what's the point ...   
Harry had the original skull available -- and Bob's tutelage -- for years beforehand, to study.  Both the runes & other carvings, but also the enchantments, the spells.  And then had Bob available as a consultant, in prep for constructing the "backup" home.

Moreover:  he did it.  Whatever the minimum enchantments necessary to make a spirit-home skull, Harry managed.

... Another problem with your idea, Bob avoids the Nevernever, so would he be happy with such an arrangement?

Bob avoids the fae, particularly Winter, and most particularly Mab.

AFAIK, the only reason Bob "avoids the Nevernever" is the Fae/Winter/Mab issue.  If the skull connects to a little isolated bubble of "Neverneverness" then Bob can go there and be safe. (***but I have a WAG about this!)

I think it's creating this isolated pocket anchored to the skull, that makes the job more than a simple carving.  Harry could have bought a cheap wooden carved skull from a Día de los Muertos leftover-sale, if it were as simple as all that (2/$35 on Etsy, I just looked).


*** My WAG about Bob & his "fear of Mab:"
1/  I think Bob's "Spiritual Heavyweight" parent was Mab.  I know that Lea is a fan-favorite, but IMHO she's too much of a lightweight power (I know, right?).  Mab -- in charge of the Outer Gates of Creation -- is inestimably more-potent.
2/  I think Mab created a Shadow in the mortal wizard specifically to get a spirit-child (Bob) out of the deal (and if it was Mab, there was a deal!), likely Mab's Shadow providing knowledge/advice to the wizard-host, both as Mab's part of the deal and what Mab wanted in the first place.
3/  I think Mab wanted (and got) a "Spirit of Intellect" that would work closely with powerful human wizards, through the centuries; but one who, ultimately, served Mab's interests.  A deep-cover sleeper-agent, if you will.
4/  I'm unclear if Bob knows he is Mab's agent (and is only pretending he's terrified of her), or if Bob is an unwitting accomplice; or what.  But remember how Mab knew exactly what was going on with "the Parasite" and provided a carefully-crafted countermeasure (did Lea show any awareness whatsoever)?  And how Mab gave Harry an "impossible" order, to kill an unkillable immortal... but knew Harry had access to Bob (who knew the secret).  And how Bob more-or-less LIVED in Harry's lab... right across the Nevernever gate from the murdergarden of Mab's Handmaiden.
Mab could clearly have destroyed Bob any time she wanted to.
Bob's "fear" of Mab is pointless; the question becomes:  is Bob fooled about his danger?  Or is Bob fooling Harry?

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Dragon Con points of interest
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2024, 03:33:34 AM »


*** My WAG about Bob & his "fear of Mab:"
1/  I think Bob's "Spiritual Heavyweight" parent was Mab.  I know that Lea is a fan-favorite, but IMHO she's too much of a lightweight power (I know, right?).  Mab -- in charge of the Outer Gates of Creation -- is inestimably more-potent.
2/  I think Mab created a Shadow in the mortal wizard specifically to get a spirit-child (Bob) out of the deal (and if it was Mab, there was a deal!), likely Mab's Shadow providing knowledge/advice to the wizard-host, both as Mab's part of the deal and what Mab wanted in the first place.
3/  I think Mab wanted (and got) a "Spirit of Intellect" that would work closely with powerful human wizards, through the centuries; but one who, ultimately, served Mab's interests.  A deep-cover sleeper-agent, if you will.
4/  I'm unclear if Bob knows he is Mab's agent (and is only pretending he's terrified of her), or if Bob is an unwitting accomplice; or what.  But remember how Mab knew exactly what was going on with "the Parasite" and provided a carefully-crafted countermeasure (did Lea show any awareness whatsoever)?  And how Mab gave Harry an "impossible" order, to kill an unkillable immortal... but knew Harry had access to Bob (who knew the secret). 

OK, I was thinking that this was an extreme stretch...until the emboldened red line.  That part does make sense, almost too much sense.  Even if Mab isn't Bob's
'parent', her knowing that Harry had access to Bob would make that order suddenly make sense.

It isn't proof, of course.  There are other possible sources for the secret (apparently one of the early Council Merlins knew it, for ex), but it is an intriguing thought.

Quote


And how Bob more-or-less LIVED in Harry's lab... right across the Nevernever gate from the murdergarden of Mab's Handmaiden.
Mab could clearly have destroyed Bob any time she wanted to.


We don't know for sure that Mab knew Harry had Bob, of course.  The only protection Bob actually ever had was secrecy, once Mab knew where he was she could come get him, unless he was protected by a power far greater than Harry.  Bob could be safe inside Mab's throne hall, if she didn't know he was there.

Quote
Bob's "fear" of Mab is pointless; the question becomes:  is Bob fooled about his danger?  Or is Bob fooling Harry?

Assuming your WAG is right, there's another possibility:  Bob started out as Mab's agent on Earth...and she lost control of him at some point (possibly Kemmler-related).  This could be the case whether he knows she created him or not.  So she might really be chasing him now even if she wasn't in the past.

Your WAG could be true...but for some reason I hope it isn't.  I don't know why, there's just something about it that doesn't appeal to me.  But it could be true.

Offline vincentric

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Re: Dragon Con points of interest
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2024, 01:43:03 PM »
Leah knew that Harry had Bob and Mab probably found out about it when she had to take over Leah's godmother duties while Leah was on ice.

Offline Mira

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Re: Dragon Con points of interest
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2024, 06:16:01 PM »
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Bob's "fear" of Mab is pointless; the question becomes:  is Bob fooled about his danger?  Or is Bob fooling Harry?

Another WAG, at one point Bob seduced Mab...

Offline g33k

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Re: Dragon Con points of interest
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2024, 02:01:28 AM »
Leah knew that Harry had Bob ...

Do we have certainty about that?  AFAIK, all of the "winterfae know Harry had Bob" theories are fantheories only; I recall no canon or WoJ either way.

Offline g33k

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Re: Dragon Con points of interest
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2024, 03:37:26 PM »
Another WAG, at one point Bob seduced Mab...

I don't think a spirit could have done that.
Or did you mean the human wizard who "birthed" Bob?

Offline Mira

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Re: Dragon Con points of interest
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2024, 05:56:46 PM »
I don't think a spirit could have done that.
Or did you mean the human wizard who "birthed" Bob?

No??  Bob, as we know is very interested in sex, from porn magazines to panty raids when he is let out for short time periods.  He may have peeped when he shouldn't have or stole a pair of her panties,  it is untelling what would offend Mab. Or at what lengths she'd go to for her revenge.

Offline vincentric

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Re: Dragon Con points of interest
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2024, 06:57:47 PM »
Do we have certainty about that?  AFAIK, all of the "winterfae know Harry had Bob" theories are fantheories only; I recall no canon or WoJ either way.

Leah kept track of Harry when the White Council lost him after Malcolm's death. She was close enough to come running when Justin turned on Harry and certainly watched their fight. Harry took Bob and buried him directly after that, so Leah likely saw that and might have even helped Bob stay hidden until Harry's return. She's kept watch on him from the NeverNever his entire life to fulfill her bargain. As was revealed in Cold Days, benign Fae can just walk right into your homes past your thresholds. So, she's most likely seen the skull and even took care of it for him when he popped into her garden in Changes. So no, it's not confirmed canon, but it's heavily implied if you follow the logic chain.

Offline g33k

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Re: Dragon Con points of interest
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2024, 10:11:13 PM »
No??  Bob, as we know is very interested in sex, from porn magazines to panty raids when he is let out for short time periods.  He may have peeped when he shouldn't have or stole a pair of her panties,  it is untelling what would offend Mab. Or at what lengths she'd go to for her revenge.
Oh, yeah.
If you had said, "sexually harassed Mab" I'd have been "yeah, that's a Bob move..."
He'd obviously have had to do some stalker-ish "while she was away" sort of thing, because even though he's knowlegable & powerful he only has enough juice to be a minor annoyance to Mab.

It was the "seduce Mab" that I found unlikely!