Warden of Demonreach: Dragoncon lore-dump or retcon??!?

[vincentric]

We've never seen Alfred act on its own volition to imprison someone.  At the times when the Denarians were on the island, there was no Warden to give the order to imprison them.  Almost all the creatures and beings in that prison are there because someone (i.e. the White Council I'm pretty sure) put them there.

Could the prison hold a Denarian?  I imagine so.  Could it hold a Coin?  I'm not so sure.  If nothing else, there would be the risk of infernal intervention.

I have to agree with Mira on this.  Maybe Alfred doesn't like visitors on the island or maybe not, we just don't know.  Apparently someone was able to operate a cannery there for a little while at least, so it's certainly possible to visit it.  Alfred might not like Rashid, but Rashid still visited the island.

So I would imagine that the Council could send a party of Wizards to check the place out every so often.

And even if that isn't a viable option, it would not be that hard to keep track of who visited.  The Council has vast resources of money.  They could put a few boats on Lake Michigan in the area, disguised as ordinary fishermen or pleasure boaters or whatever to keep track of the waters around the island, they could hire someone to run a radar set on such boats to watch the skies about.  It just wouldn't be that hard for the Council to keep track of comings and goings, at least in the real world.  We don't know how hard it would be to access Demonreach through the Nevernever, but Nicodemus seemed to think it would be...difficult.  And I suspect the White Council has the resources to keep track of the Nevernever near Demonreach, too.

It really is strange that the Council doesn't seem to be doing that, considering what that place is.  Maybe, maybe, they're afraid of calling attention to it by watching it too closely...but I don't really buy that.

Mira has a point, this is really strange.

I suspect the Council usually does choose the Warden, when there is one.  They might have to be careful to choose someone acceptable to Alfred, but I doubt that's an insuperable barrier.

Everything to do with Demonreach is a retcon it seems though.

In Small Favor, where we are introduced to it, a large group of non-wizards were able to reside there long enough to build a cannery and dock. How? The psychic pressure of the island gave Karrin, Michael and even Thomas horrible nightmares after just a day or so of exposure. Its vibes are strong enough to get it excluded from all maps of Lake Michigan and flight paths into Chicago steer clear of it. That's a pretty strong ward.

In fact, the strength of that ward and the Ley lines coming from the island ought to draw magical talents like flies and mosquitos to a bug zapper. Practitioners should get a "bad idea" warning when they think of approaching, but there's no way it'd be unknown, if only for the huge ley lines coming from the center of a large body of water.

And why aren't there any older wizards using those ley lines along the shores of Lake Michigan? You'd think it would be a wizardly lake town and retreat. If you say the White Council stops those wizards because they are suspicious, why don't they have permanent presence there?

The only theory I can come up with is that it is part of Rashiid's duties as the Gatekeeper. He does know a Way to the island and has some history with it. Perhaps he pops in from time to time to see if it has a Warden. His foresight may even have shown him Harry in the role and doing a good job.

[Mira]

And why aren't there any older wizards using those ley lines along the shores of Lake Michigan? You'd think it would be a wizardly lake town and retreat. If you say the White Council stops those wizards because they are suspicious, why don't they have permanent presence there?

  Unless there are rules against that very thing with in the White Council, or simply no wizard unless he or she is a Warden is welcome on a permanent basis on the island.

[vincentric]

  Unless there are rules against that very thing with in the White Council, or simply no wizard unless he or she is a Warden is welcome on a permanent basis on the island.

But this wouldn't require going to the island, I'm talking about being on the shores of Lake Michigan. We know that the enemy is doing this because there were two ritual sites being used inCold Days to launch attacks against Demonreach that were stopped by forces from Lara and Marcone. Those would seem like good places for a group of monitoring Wardens to set up shop.

[Mira]

But this wouldn't require going to the island, I'm talking about being on the shores of Lake Michigan. We know that the enemy is doing this because there were two ritual sites being used inCold Days to launch attacks against Demonreach that were stopped by forces from Lara and Marcone. Those would seem like good places for a group of monitoring Wardens to set up shop.

Why did they launch the attack? Or were able to?  Because though Harry had been named Warden, he hadn't learned anything about setting up the real defenses of the island yet.  Notice the difference in Battle Ground, Harry was now a fully engaged Warden had engaged the island's full defenses, HWWB tried to sneak in using Justine to get Harry open up the defenses so that Justine could visit Thomas.  Why? Because that's the only way he'd get in, if he had been able to fool Harry into letting him in as Justine. In other words with a Warden fully engaged, the attack attempt we saw in Cold Days would not have happened.

[vincentric]

Why did they launch the attack? Or were able to?  Because though Harry had been named Warden, he hadn't learned anything about setting up the real defenses of the island yet.  Notice the difference in Battle Ground, Harry was now a fully engaged Warden had engaged the island's full defenses, HWWB tried to sneak in using Justine to get Harry open up the defenses so that Justine could visit Thomas.  Why? Because that's the only way he'd get in, if he had been able to fool Harry into letting him in as Justine. In other words with a Warden fully engaged, the attack attempt we saw in Cold Days would not have happened.

Which circles back to the lack of security.

The island didn't have an active Warden for decades. At any time, those two sights could have been occupied or at monitored to keep the bad guys from setting up shop on them. " An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure" applies here.

[Mira]

Which circles back to the lack of security.

The island didn't have an active Warden for decades. At any time, those two sights could have been occupied or at monitored to keep the bad guys from setting up shop on them. " An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure" applies here.

Doing so may have revealed the island's secret.  Also I doubt that the White Council has any control over the island.  The island picks and chooses who it want's to be it's keeper or Warden, not the White Council.

[Tinfoil hat]

Doing so may have revealed the island's secret.  Also I doubt that the White Council has any control over the island.  The island picks and chooses who it want's to be it's keeper or Warden, not the White Council.

But this wouldn't require going to the island, I'm talking about being on the shores of Lake Michigan. We know that the enemy is doing this because there were two ritual sites being used inCold Days to launch attacks against Demonreach that were stopped by forces from Lara and Marcone. Those would seem like good places for a group of monitoring Wardens to set up shop.

My own theories about the island is that its a known secret. All the major players know about it and for the sake of peace agree ( informally of course) to leaveit alone.
The Nicky and nickelhead are exceptions. They don't care about the rules both formal and informal.
Plus is it possible that the fallen can shield their host from the effects  of the island

[vincentric]

My own theories about the island is that its a known secret. All the major players know about it and for the sake of peace agree ( informally of course) to leaveit alone.
The Nicky and nickelhead are exceptions. They don't care about the rules both formal and informal.
Plus is it possible that the fallen can shield their host from the effects  of the island

But that means taking no precautions against the biggest rulebreakers of all, the Outsiders and their agents. They might be the only ones that will attack the island but they also represent the biggest threat.

[Mira]

But that means taking no precautions against the biggest rulebreakers of all, the Outsiders and their agents. They might be the only ones that will attack the island but they also represent the biggest threat.

That is why it is so important that the island have a Warden.   However like with so many things the White Council has their collective heads up their arses.   My own thinking is they fear the possible rise of another Kemmler more than the possible assault on the island by Outsiders, so they are content what defenses the island can mount on it's own, is enough.  This fits a pattern with them, any young kid with talent goes astray, instead of putting him or her under the Doom, give all of them the chop.  They fear abuse of mental magic, so only allow the teaching of a minimal and largely ineffective mental defense technique against mental attack.

[Tinfoil hat]

That is why it is so important that the island have a Warden.   However like with so many things the White Council has their collective heads up their arses.   My own thinking is they fear the possible rise of another Kemmler more than the possible assault on the island by Outsiders, so they are content what defenses the island can mount on it's own, is enough.  This fits a pattern with them, any young kid with talent goes astray, instead of putting him or her under the Doom, give all of them the chop.  They fear abuse of mental magic, so only allow the teaching of a minimal and largely ineffective mental defense technique against mental attack.

Ok a couple of things
1) the attack in CD was an anomaly. The Island was attacked by Fae , The ladies and their retinues. That not an everyday thing. The defenses were at their weakest and they held. Its mentioned that the Fae are close to nature sothe Island was weak against them.
2) Mab mentions that the Alfred could have chosen to stop them rather than just standing there.
3 (yeah i know couple means 2 but i can neither confirm or deny that i am not a fae as noone has asked)
Santa Claus was on the case, Lea was on the case , Mab was on the case ,hell the Goblin king was on it.
Point being it was an attack that played on the Island's weaknesses. And the major powers were ready to step in.
One last thing is the Island part of the WC sphere of responsibility or not. Cause if it is the WC has a right to choose the Warden or the right to at least nominate a suitable candidate. But if its not the WC JUST has to seat back and may observe the situation from afar which is exactly what they have done

[Mira]

1) the attack in CD was an anomaly. The Island was attacked by Fae , The ladies and their retinues. That not an everyday thing. The defenses were at their weakest and they held. Its mentioned that the Fae are close to nature sothe Island was weak against them.

No, they really didn't, it was the fight that Molly helped to put up, along with Harry and the others.  The actual final defenses for the prison itself were never tested.  If Harry hadn't been able to summon Mab, who aided Murphy in shooting Maeve, it could have gone the other way.

2) Mab mentions that the Alfred could have chosen to stop them rather than just standing there.

Did she?  I don't remember that line, do you have a quote?  I am not saying you are wrong, I just don't remember it.  Also Alfred can't choose, he has to be ordered, if it were that simple it wouldn't have been as close as it was.  Even if Harry had ordered him, apparently the defenses of the island are a bit more complex that's why it took Harry a year to learn them and put them in place.  And notice in Skin Game Mab was actually asking permission to come onto the island where as in Cold Days she didn't.

3 (yeah i know couple means 2 but i can neither confirm or deny that i am not a fae as noone has asked)
Santa Claus was on the case, Lea was on the case , Mab was on the case ,hell the Goblin king was on it.
Point being it was an attack that played on the Island's weaknesses. And the major powers were ready to step in.
One last thing is the Island part of the WC sphere of responsibility or not. Cause if it is the WC has a right to choose the Warden or the right to at least nominate a suitable candidate. But if its not the WC JUST has to seat back and may observe the situation from afar which is exactly what they have done

And they were losing until Maeve was killed.  If all you say is true, then why did the powers wait until the last minute?

[Tinfoil hat]

No, they really didn't, it was the fight that Molly helped to put up, along with Harry and the others.  The actual final defenses for the prison itself were never tested.  If Harry hadn't been able to summon Mab, who aided Murphy in shooting Maeve, it could have gone the other way.

Did she?  I don't remember that line, do you have a quote?  I am not saying you are wrong, I just don't remember it.  Also Alfred can't choose, he has to be ordered, if it were that simple it wouldn't have been as close as it was.  Even if Harry had ordered him, apparently the defenses of the island are a bit more complex that's why it took Harry a year to learn them and put them in place.  And notice in Skin Game Mab was actually asking permission to come onto the island where as in Cold Days she didn't.
And they were losing until Maeve was killed.  If all you say is true, then why did the powers wait until the last minute?

Chapter 46 cold days,
Harry says to Molly
Demonreach was meant to keep things in, not out, but I didn’t want to blab about that in front of mixed company. “It encourages everyone to stay away, and turns up the heat slowly for anyone who doesn’t,” I said back. “But that’s when it isn’t being attacked by an army of cultists and a horde of howling freaks from beyond reality. It was busy making sure none of the Outsiders could come up onto shore—and none of them could. It just outmuscled an army led by something that could go could go toe-to-toe with Mab. Everything has its limits.
Chapter

you do.”
Chapter 52
Mab nodded her head slightly, and descended to the ground. From me, she turned to Demonreach. “I thank you for your patience and your assistance in this matter. You could have reacted differently but chose not to. I am aware of the decision. It will not be forgotten.”
Sorry i have a hardcopy so yeah

[Mira]

Demonreach was meant to keep things in, not out, but I didn’t want to blab about that in front of mixed company.

That's the important sentence here...   Back in chapter 17 page 171 when Harry visits the island with Bob.. Bob and Alfred explain why a Warden is needed for the place.

"THE EXPLANATION WOULD DAMAGE YOU, WARDEN."
Bob made an impatient sound. "Because the spirit isthe island, Harry The spells, the Well,the physical island, all of it.  Demonreach does not existoutside this island.  It has noability to reach beyond itself.  The attack is coming from outsidethe prison.  That's why it needs a Warden in the first place."

Chapter 52
Mab nodded her head slightly, and descended to the ground. From me, she turned to Demonreach. “I thank you for your patience and your assistance in this matter. You could have reacted differently but chose not to. I am aware of the decision. It will not be forgotten.”
Sorry i have a hardcopy so yeah

Since Alfred was meant to keep things in, and once the breech was made had to rely on a fail safe, i.e. blowing up the island taking with it a huge chunk of North America.. I believe Mab was thanking Alfred for not being too hasty in making that choice once Maeve had breached the last of his defenses.  While yeah, maybe you can say that Alfred chose to delay the fail safe, if Maeve hadn't been defeated in the last minute, it would have been used.  Also keep in mind, it wasn't Alfred that stopped Maeve, it was Murphy with Mab's help.

[LordDresden2]

Everything to do with Demonreach is a retcon it seems though.

In Small Favor, where we are introduced to it, a large group of non-wizards were able to reside there long enough to build a cannery and dock. How? The psychic pressure of the island gave Karrin, Michael and even Thomas horrible nightmares after just a day or so of exposure. Its vibes are strong enough to get it excluded from all maps of Lake Michigan and flight paths into Chicago steer clear of it. That's a pretty strong ward.

I could see it being that Karrin and Michael are more 'sensitive' to such things because of their own experiences, ditto Thomas even more so as a White Vampire.  Ordinary folks might not 'feel' the repulsion as strongly, or as fast, that might have enabled the cannery to run for a while before nobody could stand it.

Alternatively, the former cannery might have been a 'cover' for something supernatural trying to do something against the island.  But that's just wild-ass-guess speculation.

We just don't have enough information, enough basic data.

Also, it's probably not just the ward.  I'm not sure Alfred even could influence the pilots and other people beyond its domain. 

I think somebody, somewhere, has to be deliberately pulling strings in the FAA and other institutions to keep flight paths away and so forth.   If it was just the repulsion from the island, tracking radars and onboard instruments would detect the planes leaving their course in that area, and Questions would be asked.

For that matter, the cannery had employees, presumably their employment records and tax returns and so forth are on file somewhere.  The island exists and if the cannery was there, that suggests that someone in the mundane world theoretically owns the land (my guess would be the White Council through shells).

Speculation:  the island is run/owned/controlled by a coalition of supernatural powers including the White Council, but also including some other heavy players too.  That might help explain the long gaps in Warden-dom, it might be that the various power players just can't agree on who should be the man (or woman).

[LordDresden2]

Doing so may have revealed the island's secret.  Also I doubt that the White Council has any control over the island.  The island picks and chooses who it want's to be it's keeper or Warden, not the White Council.

I doubt Alfred is the only power involved.  Alfred can't reach out beyond the island and choose someone, after all.  Somebody would have to come to the island and offer himself (or herself) for the job, like Harry.

So I suspect the Council usually plays at least some role in the appointment.