Warden of Demonreach: Dragoncon lore-dump or retcon??!?

[LordDresden2]

Harry did blunder his way into it.. However it is stupid on the part of the Senior Council to think that to be Warden of the island would be Villain in Chief..  The post has dangers because it carries with it great power as well as responsibility, both can corrupt the person holding it, but that doesn't make them a villain, and to let the post remain vacant for all those years seems rather stupid.

I don't think the Council believes that THE Warden is automatically a villain-in-chief.  I think they consider the position horrifically dangerous and easy to misuse, and they know that would-be villains will be attracted to that kind of power.  If the Senior Council has the brains of your average gopher, then with their lifespans and experiences they will know that power draws corrupt people, and that power, any power, also has a tendency to corrupt.  They'll have seen it.  They would know it isn't inevitable, but they would know it's always a risk.

Demonreach one of the most dangerous sources of Power in the game.  It's a kind of power that is readily abused, easy to misuse, and THE Warden is right next to some serious mega-evil beings, some of whom I'm sure can be very clever and persuasive and highly intelligent.  Remember, that prison keeps skinwalkers in minimum security.  They're too minor to rate anything heavier.  Think about what they implies about the ones in supermax or isolation tank.

Yeah, I can easily understand the Senior Council's fears and caution.

[LordDresden2]

Something else occurs to me:  if I was on the SC, when picking a new Warden of Demonreach, I think, everything else being equal, I'd want a middle-aged Wizard.  Someone old enough to have learned a few things and shown stability and trustworthiness and so on, but at the same time, someone young enough that he can serve for a long time.  Someone young enough, too, that if he does go off the rails, he's relatively manageable to deal with.

If you can find a good candidate, you'd probably want to keep him in place for a while.  Making an SC member, or someone that age and power level, might well mean that he can only serve for a century or less, and if go south he would also be a handful to take out.

(Langtry was able to hold off an entire army with one ward, by himself.  Ebenezar can shake continents with quakes and eruptions.  Rashid is Rashid.  Klaus once stopped an entire German military force with a toy duck, IIRC.  Imagine that kind of power combined with THE Wardenship and it went sour.)

From that POV, Harry would seem way way too young (and he is!), but a fellow SC member would look too old and powerful.

[Mira]

Langtry, OTOH, would probably have been passionately opposed to the idea of Harry as THE Warden.  "One Kemmler is enough."

  And you will remember according to Eb's journal, Langtry wanted to put Harry under surveillance upon hearing what he did, but that seems pretty mild.  Eb's opinion of that was Langtry "was a damn fool."  I repeat, at that point Harry had no clue as to what he had gotten himself into, he didn't do the sanctum thing to become Warden of the island, and may not have done it if he knew the consequences, all he wanted was a better chance to protect Morgan so he could get a fair trial.  Yet no one save a vague warning from Rashid and another indirect vague warning from Eb said anything to him or explained anything to him... Don't you think that strange?  Or once again the Senior Council decides that something could be very dangerous, i.e. another Kemmler, but then ignores the problem totally in hopes it will go away?  When perhaps an ounce of prevention is called for?  Or is it a wait and see what happens?  In other words, the damn foolish surveillance idea of Langtry, because if it does go south, that horse has already left the barn, while the Senior Council just watched it happen.

[vincentric]

The real issue is the lack of surveillance at any time before or after Harry became the Warden. If you're going to suspect whoever takes control of the island, maybe you should be watching so you know if someone's making an attempt and who they might be. Also, why would you promote someone to the job of Warden of North America if you don't trust him? I mean there's only three Senior Council members living there out of seven total.

The Denarians set up shop there, kidnapping two signatories of the Accords. The White Council may not care about Marcone, but they really should care about the Archive. But we have no indication that the WC even knew what happened until Harry reported it.

The WC didn't know that Harry had taken the island in TC. The only reason they came there was because Harry set up a meeting there. Rashiid, Eb and Listens all learn that Harry has become the new Warden but aside from Rashiid's minimal warnings, no one offers any advice of any kind.

For CD, the new Warden and Winter Knight has been assassinated after the destruction of the Red Court, but the WC can't spare one wizard to check on the island occasionally.  The magical tension in the area was building for months. Maybe there might have been some help on-hand to stop the breakout that would have resulted in kicking off the Apocalypse.

[Mira]

The real issue is the lack of surveillance at any time before or after Harry became the Warden. If you're going to suspect whoever takes control of the island, maybe you should be watching so you know if someone's making an attempt and who they might be. Also, why would you promote someone to the job of Warden of North America if you don't trust him? I mean there's only three Senior Council members living there out of seven total.

What was weird about that is not only was Harry the equivalent of a rookie cop at the time, he had just gotten drafted into the Warden Corps.  It hadn't been all that long since he was living under the Doom. 

Exactly, I agree, though the island had some defenses, it was still vulnerable and you'd think you'd want to know who'd try to bond with it and why.

(Langtry was able to hold off an entire army with one ward, by himself.  Ebenezar can shake continents with quakes and eruptions.  Rashid is Rashid.  Klaus once stopped an entire German military force with a toy duck, IIRC.  Imagine that kind of power combined with THE Wardenship and it went sour.)

Very true, that's where the integrity thing becomes important.  Being Warden of the island would be an even greater danger than even if the Blackstaff suddenly lost it and went rogue.

For CD, the new Warden and Winter Knight has been assassinated after the destruction of the Red Court, but the WC can't spare one wizard to check on the island occasionally.  The magical tension in the area was building for months. Maybe there might have been some help on-hand to stop the breakout that would have resulted in kicking off the Apocalypse.

I think that any one of the Wardens could have had a watch on the comings and goings on the island.. Then when needed the big guns could have been called in.  I guess they thought the island could keep it's secrets, after all the Denarians camped out there and held the Archive hostage and didn't seem to know it's secret or never attempted to breech it.

[vincentric]

The Denarians definitely know the secret of the island. But I don't think they can use it themselves because "No Denarians" would be on Alfred's checklist of those qualified for being Warden. Plus, Nic thinks his plan will save the world, I'd doubt that would include many of the inmates as most of them don't seem to be the follower type.

[Mira]

The Denarians definitely know the secret of the island. But I don't think they can use it themselves because "No Denarians" would be on Alfred's checklist of those qualified for being Warden. Plus, Nic thinks his plan will save the world, I'd doubt that would include many of the inmates as most of them don't seem to be the follower type.

  I still wonder though, because you'd think the Denarians would make use of some of the inmates if they could break them out.   

[vincentric]

  I still wonder though, because you'd think the Denarians would make use of some of the inmates if they could break them out.

The Denarians don't have a viable path to controlling the Warden, so their only option is to break them all out. I don't think that would jibe with their plans.

[EBRIEN]

On that same note, could the coins be imprisoned on the island? (You may've already discussed--I've been in and out of discussions lately)

Thanks--B

[KurtinStGeorge]

On that same note, could the coins be imprisoned on the island? (You may've already discussed--I've been in and out of discussions lately)

Thanks--B

In Skin Game Lasciel told Harry that the coins weren't meant to be "locked up" very long.  I forget her exact language.  It was something about how corruption can't be kept hidden.  I suspect the same applies to Demonreach as the Church keeping the coins in hiding. 

Also, it is possible that whatever rules Demonreach operates under might make it impossible for the island to hold the coins.  Maybe it could hold Nicodemus or another denarian but the coin might not be able to enter the vault with the coin holder.  I'm just speculating, but I wouldn't be surprised if this or some other mechanism prevents the island from imprisoning the coins.

The real issue is the lack of surveillance at any time before or after Harry became the Warden. If you're going to suspect whoever takes control of the island, maybe you should be watching so you know if someone's making an attempt and who they might be.

I think there are a couple of problems with this idea.  First, the island doesn't like visitors and there isn't a practical way to keep an eye on the island other than being there. 

I suspect the most important problem is, the White Council doesn't choose who becomes the island's Warden.  I'm pretty sure it's Alfred choice.  According to Harry, performing a Sanctum invocation is dangerous, so it isn't something most wizards ever do.  So the Council would be hard pressed to find volunteers to attempt to do what Harry did.

On a different topic, we don't know much, or anything really, about Kemmler's personal history.  Sure, he was super evil and crazy, but was he always that way?  Was there a time when Kemmler was in good standing with the White Council, like Justine DuMorne was once a Warden of the Council?  It's possible that Kemmler became the madman we know about after he was the Warden or while he was the Warden of Demonreach.  Having extended conversations with some of things locked up under the island might have done that or contributed to Kemmler going down the dark path.

I wonder if Harry will ever ask Alfred about past Wardens; so we can learn more, or if this is backstory information that won't have much relevance to the story going forward.  My guess is Kemmler's story; at least, is important, that it contains clues or information that Harry will eventually need to know.  The stories and fates of the other wardens might also become important to Harry.  We will just have to wait to see if I'm right.

[Mira]

I think there are a couple of problems with this idea.  First, the island doesn't like visitors and there isn't a practical way to keep an eye on the island other than being there.

I suspect the most important problem is, the White Council doesn't choose who becomes the island's Warden.  I'm pretty sure it's Alfred choice.  According to Harry, performing a Sanctum invocation is dangerous, so it isn't something most wizards ever do.  So the Council would be hard pressed to find volunteers to attempt to do what Harry did.

I agree with this, I think any full wizard may have the knowledge and talent to perform the ritual of a Sanctum, but few are accepted by Alfred.  If a wizard isn't accepted, at best he or she is thrown off the island, or worse, simply killed.  I think the critical moment was when Alfred and Harry did the stare down after the summons, then Harry's extraordinary will kicked in, as Harry has said. paraphrasing, "it punched, and I punched back and now we are friends."  Apparently in that moment Harry demonstrated to Alfred's satisfaction that he was strong enough to handle the job.  Though at the time Harry had no idea it was a job interview.

On a different topic, we don't know much, or anything really, about Kemmler's personal history.  Sure, he was super evil and crazy, but was he always that way?  Was there a time when Kemmler was in good standing with the White Council, like Justine DuMorne was once a Warden of the Council?  It's possible that Kemmler became the madman we know about after he was the Warden or while he was the Warden of Demonreach.  Having extended conversations with some of things locked up under the island might have done that or contributed to Kemmler going down the dark path.

All of this is theory of course since we don't know any details save there is a WOJ that Kemmler was once a Warden of the island.  My own theory is that Kemmler wasn't always evil, however after becoming Warden he didn't heed warnings about drawing power from the Ley line of the island, thus was corrupted by it and became evil.  Remember what Rashid said about the Ley line, it's source was the island.  Did he mean the monsters that it has imprisoned?  If so, Rashid said it would be years before Harry was either experienced or old enough to draw upon it's power,without being altered by it..  This is another possible hint of what took place with Kemmler.  Rashid didn't elaborate except to hint that the outcome wouldn't be good, and that Harry was years away from even attempting such a thing.  In other words Harry isn't ready to use the power of the Ley line now, but Rashid didn't rule out Harry using it in the future, perhaps in the BAT? This most likely the set up for the last book in the BAT, why Harry was selected as Warden, so eventually in the final battle he will use it.  That's why the island was brought into the series in the first place.

I wonder if Harry will ever ask Alfred about past Wardens; so we can learn more, or if this is backstory information that won't have much relevance to the story going forward.  My guess is Kemmler's story; at least, is important, that it contains clues or information that Harry will eventually need to know.  The stories and fates of the other wardens might also become important to Harry.  We will just have to wait to see if I'm right.

He may have asked during that year he spent on the island.  I wonder though if Alfred is capable of communicating something like that? 

[KurtinStGeorge]

All of this is theory of course since we don't know any details save there is a WOJ that Kemmler was once a Warden of the island.  My own theory is that Kemmler wasn't always evil, however after becoming Warden he didn't heed warnings about drawing power from the Ley line of the island, thus was corrupted by it and became evil.  Remember what Rashid said about the Ley line, it's source was the island.  Did he mean the monsters that it has imprisoned?  If so, Rashid said it would be years before Harry was either experienced or old enough to draw upon it's power,without being altered by it..  This is another possible hint of what took place with Kemmler. Rashid didn't elaborate except to hint that the outcome wouldn't be good, and that Harry was years away from even attempting such a thing.  In other words Harry isn't ready to use the power of the Ley line now, but Rashid didn't rule out Harry using it in the future, perhaps in the BAT? This most likely the set up for the last book in the BAT, why Harry was selected as Warden, so eventually in the final battle he will use it.  That's why the island was brought into the series in the first place.

He may have asked during that year he spent on the island.  I wonder though if Alfred is capable of communicating something like that?

Not a bad idea.  I like it.

I think Alfred could communicate about past wardens in broad strokes.  He might mention the warden who tapped into the island's Ley line.  Real basic information.   

[Mira]

I think Alfred could communicate about past wardens in broad strokes.  He might mention the warden who tapped into the island's Ley line.  Real basic information.   

Very basic I would say, I don't get the feeling that Alfred understands humans or their motivations very well.  In other words while he might be able to say that Kemmler tapped into the Ley line and maybe that it corrupted him, but I doubt that he could get across something that was probably more complicated than just Kemmler tapped the Ley line and became corrupted.  Had Kemmler been warned like Harry was not to touch it and did it anyway?  Why?  Did he do it for just power? Or did it have something to do with him later becoming an necromancer?  Did he lose someone he wanted to bring back?  These are all important questions and I just don't think answering them are in Alfred's wheel house.  It's job is to jail and to keep jailed monsters and evil doers.. Notice however it doesn't do that on it's own, it takes a human Warden to make that judgement.. Though there may have been non-human Wardens in the past, but we have no information on that.

[LordDresden2]

In Skin Game Lasciel told Harry that the coins weren't meant to be "locked up" very long.  I forget her exact language.  It was something about how corruption can't be kept hidden.  I suspect the same applies to Demonreach as the Church keeping the coins in hiding. 

Also, it is possible that whatever rules Demonreach operates under might make it impossible for the island to hold the coins.  Maybe it could hold Nicodemus or another denarian but the coin might not be able to enter the vault with the coin holder.  I'm just speculating, but I wouldn't be surprised if this or some other mechanism prevents the island from imprisoning the coins.

We've never seen Alfred act on its own volition to imprison someone.  At the times when the Denarians were on the island, there was no Warden to give the order to imprison them.  Almost all the creatures and beings in that prison are there because someone (i.e. the White Council I'm pretty sure) put them there.

Could the prison hold a Denarian?  I imagine so.  Could it hold a Coin?  I'm not so sure.  If nothing else, there would be the risk of infernal intervention.

I think there are a couple of problems with this idea.  First, the island doesn't like visitors and there isn't a practical way to keep an eye on the island other than being there. 

I have to agree with Mira on this.  Maybe Alfred doesn't like visitors on the island or maybe not, we just don't know.  Apparently someone was able to operate a cannery there for a little while at least, so it's certainly possible to visit it.  Alfred might not like Rashid, but Rashid still visited the island.

So I would imagine that the Council could send a party of Wizards to check the place out every so often.

And even if that isn't a viable option, it would not be that hard to keep track of who visited.  The Council has vast resources of money.  They could put a few boats on Lake Michigan in the area, disguised as ordinary fishermen or pleasure boaters or whatever to keep track of the waters around the island, they could hire someone to run a radar set on such boats to watch the skies about.  It just wouldn't be that hard for the Council to keep track of comings and goings, at least in the real world.  We don't know how hard it would be to access Demonreach through the Nevernever, but Nicodemus seemed to think it would be...difficult.  And I suspect the White Council has the resources to keep track of the Nevernever near Demonreach, too.

It really is strange that the Council doesn't seem to be doing that, considering what that place is.  Maybe, maybe, they're afraid of calling attention to it by watching it too closely...but I don't really buy that.

Mira has a point, this is really strange.

I suspect the most important problem is, the White Council doesn't choose who becomes the island's Warden.  I'm pretty sure it's Alfred choice.  According to Harry, performing a Sanctum invocation is dangerous, so it isn't something most wizards ever do.  So the Council would be hard pressed to find volunteers to attempt to do what Harry did.

I suspect the Council usually does choose the Warden, when there is one.  They might have to be careful to choose somone acceptable to Alfred, but I doubt that's an insuperable barrier.

[Mira]

I suspect the Council usually does choose the Warden, when there is one.  They might have to be careful to choose somone acceptable to Alfred, but I doubt that's an insuperable barrier.

  Yeah, I think an important factor is what happens to the rejects?  If the wizard who doesn't pass the test dies,the the Council would have a real problem trying to recruit suitable candidates.   Another factor is the real danger of corruption of the Warden because the temptation to use the Ley line of the island is just too strong.  Apparently from what Rashid was hinting at, very few wizards are both strong enough in talent and character to use that Ley line without being altered by it.. If I am right about Kemmler, he used it and was altered by it for the worse.