Warden of Demonreach: Dragoncon lore-dump or retcon??!?

[g33k]

OK, so there's this old WoJ:

Q: Who was the Warden of Demonreach before Harry?
A: I know who it is, and who the guy before that was, but the guy before that was Kemmler....

So:
Now = Harry
Harry - 1 = ?
Harry - 2 = ?
Harry - 3 = Kemmler.

But now we have this (from the recent Dragoncon):

Wardens of Demonreach?
Merlin, two since then, one of whom the WC doesn’t know about.
(Presumably not including Harry)

and (different transcriber, same Q&A session):

apart from Harry and OG Merlin, do we know any other Wardens?
There's been relatively few over the time since Merlin - only been 2 others and 1 the white council doesn't even know about...

It looks to me like either:
(a) those two answers are incompatible (the old WoJ vs. the new one from Dragoncon); Jim has retconned something
(b) there was a huge gap between Kemmler & Merlin (the OG, not the title)
Like this:
Now = Harry
Harry - 1 = ?
Harry - 2 = ?
Harry - 3 = Kemmler
<huge gap>
Harry - 4 = Merlin (the OG, Arthur guy)

Or, possibly, either Kemmler is much older than we thought, or Merlin lasted until much until more recently than we realized (or some of each).

We already know that deep-Nevernever can add centuries of mortal-world time (apparent "lifespan"); and maybe the Wardenship (see how I didn't use the "M" word, there?  I know some dislike the way the idea has spread) can add lifespan, too.

But even so look particularly at this bit:

only been 2 others and 1 the white council doesn't even know about

That is only 3 people maximum (maybe only 2, one of whom the WC doesn't know about).  Leaving off our bookends (Harry & Merlin) those 3 are just these ones:
Harry - 1 = ?
Harry - 2 = ?
Harry - 3 = Kemmler
... Dafuq?
That's the entire list of Wardens who aren't Harry or Merlin??!?

One way or another, it looks like there's some discrepancies to be accounted for... or fannish thinking to be adjusted.

Or else Jim has changed his mind (or misunderstood timeframes and answered a different question than we think, or somesuch).

[vincentric]

Unless Rashiid has taken the role multiple times, I can't see how there were this few.

[Mira]

  Here is a thought, maybe a little out there, but we know Merlin built the place.  We know it is complex and if I remember correctly extends into more than one dimension and time.  So it isn't that Merlin lived extraordinarily long, but was able to be Warden in more than one dimension and time.

[Con]

Might be Jim just forgot he had said that he had to think about it when he was asked on the dresden files podcast so maybe he just had to narrow down what he wanted.

[g33k]

  Here is a thought, maybe a little out there, but we know Merlin built the place.  We know it is complex and if I remember correctly extends into more than one dimension and time.  So it isn't that Merlin lived extraordinarily long, but was able to be Warden in more than one dimension and time.

Merlin time-hopping is a possibility.
I wouldn't put anything past that dude, really.

And we already know that Rashid is several centuries older than typical wizard lifespan, presumably courtesy of deep-Nevernever time-dilation effects (which, really, is a pathway open to other wizards / other Wardens).

[Mira]

Merlin time-hopping is a possibility.
I wouldn't put anything past that dude, really.

And we already know that Rashid is several centuries older than typical wizard lifespan, presumably courtesy of deep-Nevernever time-dilation effects (which, really, is a pathway open to other wizards / other Wardens).

Rashid makes sense as well, I got the impression from Turn Coat that he was very up on the ins and outs of the island and what it meant to be a Warden of the prison.  More so, I would say than Eb was.

[RobReece]

I could be wrong,  but didn't Rashid,  or someone,  say that he'd never been the Warden?  That Alfred might be holding a grudge against him, but not as a former Warden.

[Mira]

I could be wrong,  but didn't Rashid,  or someone,  say that he'd never been the Warden?  That Alfred might be holding a grudge against him, but not as a former Warden.

Who knows?  One of those unanswered questions, if asked, would get an evil sing song out of Jim, "I ain't a going to tell you..." I don't remember anything about Rashid having been or never having been a Warden on Demonreach in the books. I am not up enough on WOJs to know if Jim ever said it or not.  I'm just saying it is plausible that Rashid could have been at one time..

[g33k]

I could be wrong,  but didn't Rashid,  or someone,  say that he'd never been the Warden?  That Alfred might be holding a grudge against him, but not as a former Warden.

I don't recall Rashid ever speaking to the issue having been (or not been) the Warden.

Hypothetically, I could see Demonreach having a "grudge" from Rashid having prioritized Gatekeeper-duties over Warden-duties.  Again, I don't recall any canon text or WoJ speaking to this at all.

[Mira]

I don't recall Rashid ever speaking to the issue having been (or not been) the Warden.

Hypothetically, I could see Demonreach having a "grudge" from Rashid having prioritized Gatekeeper-duties over Warden-duties.  Again, I don't recall any canon text or WoJ speaking to this at all.

Me neither...

[LordDresden2]

OK, so there's this old WoJ:So:
Now = Harry
Harry - 1 = ?
Harry - 2 = ?
Harry - 3 = Kemmler.

But now we have this (from the recent Dragoncon):
It looks to me like either:
(a) those two answers are incompatible (the old WoJ vs. the new one from Dragoncon); Jim has retconned something
(b) there was a huge gap between Kemmler & Merlin (the OG, not the title)
Like this:
Now = Harry
Harry - 1 = ?
Harry - 2 = ?
Harry - 3 = Kemmler
<huge gap>
Harry - 4 = Merlin (the OG, Arthur guy)

Or, possibly, either Kemmler is much older than we thought, or Merlin lasted until much until more recently than we realized (or some of each).

We already know that deep-Nevernever can add centuries of mortal-world time (apparent "lifespan"); and maybe the Wardenship (see how I didn't use the "M" word, there?  I know some dislike the way the idea has spread) can add lifespan, too.

But even so look particularly at this bit:That is only 3 people maximum (maybe only 2, one of whom the WC doesn't know about).  Leaving off our bookends (Harry & Merlin) those 3 are just these ones:
Harry - 1 = ?
Harry - 2 = ?
Harry - 3 = Kemmler
... Dafuq?
That's the entire list of Wardens who aren't Harry or Merlin??!?

One way or another, it looks like there's some discrepancies to be accounted for... or fannish thinking to be adjusted.

Or else Jim has changed his mind (or misunderstood timeframes and answered a different question than we think, or somesuch).

A retcon is certainly possible.  I'm pretty sure JB has retconned some other stuff that I've often commented on.

Another issue, though, is that he was being asked verbally.  To my mind, a Word of Jim in the form of a forum posting, or other directly-written statement, carries more weight than a verbal question and answer, because there are so many ways a question can be misunderstood, or Jim could overlook something and only remember it an hour later when it's too late, or so on.  When you write something, you're usually more focused.

That said...if there has been a Warden the Council doesn't know about, Kemmler would look like a reasonable one.    I would think having Kemmler as Warden would freak the Senior Council completely out if they knew about it.

OTOH...if they do know Kemmler was once the Warden...that would add quite a bit of explanatory power to their current panic about Harry.  It would be one more huge parallel, one more suggestion to his enemies that Harry is walking down the same road Kemmler once walked.

[Mira]

OTOH...if they do know Kemmler was once the Warden...that would add quite a bit of explanatory power to their current panic about Harry.  It would be one more huge parallel, one more suggestion to his enemies that Harry is walking down the same road Kemmler once walked.

 My question would be more along the line of, if Kemmler was Warden, why didn't he remain Warden?  Can one just quit being Warden? Why did he quit? Was he fired? Why was he fired?  If he was fired, who did the firing?  Can Alfred decide one day that Kemmler had to go?  For what reason? And if it was for reasons along the lines of why the White Council went after Kemmler, why didn't Alfred just slap him in a cell?  Or can Alfred do that to the Warden of the island on his own? 

[g33k]

...
if there has been a Warden the Council doesn't know about, Kemmler would look like a reasonable one.    I would think having Kemmler as Warden would freak the Senior Council completely out if they knew about it ...

No, they knew that Kemmler was the Warden.  Jim has been very clear that a big part of their anti-Kemmler campaign was keeping Kemmler away from the island.

When Harry became Warden, the discussion on the Council was more along the lines of "dafukkk??!?  Did he just... stupid his way into that?  It looks a lot more like a dumb move than an Evil Genius^(tm) move."  If a more-experienced wizard, who knew more about what was what, became Warden, that'd be different.  Apparently if anyone on the Senior Council were to do it, would largely convince the others that they had found their Villain-in-Chief.  But for Harry, it just looks to them like a stupid blunder.

... if Kemmler was Warden, why didn't he remain Warden? ...

He caught a severe case of being dead.

If Kemmler had been able to get back to the island, the odds are that not even the White Council would have been able to take him.

[Mira]

He caught a severe case of being dead.

Do we know for sure that Kemmler was Warden when he died?  Aside from necromancy was he all that bad as to warrant death without a trial?  Did he do his job on the island?  Would Alfred let a warlock/criminal be Warden?  Did Kemmler use the leyline for his own ends?  Would Alfred allow him to do that? If he was so bad, why didn't he let some of the prisoners loose to aid him?  I'm sorry but something seems a bit off here, the pieces do not fit nicely in the puzzle.

Tinfoil hat time, maybe Rashid was the only wizard with enough juice to get Kemmler off the island so he could be taken.  This is why Rashid limps and why the island/Alfred has a grudge against him?  Because it was Rashid that deprived the island/Alfred of it's caretaker/Warden, Kemmler?

[g33k]

Do we know for sure that Kemmler was Warden when he died? ...

We do not know for sure, but smart money says yes:  WoJ is that one huge component of the WC's anti-Kemmler campaign was to keep him the &$@% away from the island; which sounds an awful lot like he was the Warden, and would get Wardenpower as soon as he got back there.

... Aside from necromancy was he all that bad as to warrant death without a trial? ...

I expect there was a trial; likely in absentia, but a trial.  No reason not to go through the formalities, eh?  And also a huge debate, because a finding against Kemmler would amount to placing the WC into a state of war.

But... "aside from necromancy" ??!?
Seriously?
Remember that it's one of just 7 death-penalty crimes the WC has.

And Kemmler wasn't just "a" necromancer -- he was the premier necromancer of the modern age, maybe even of all time; someone with the skills and powers to impress even Mab (who generally seems to regard most modern wizards (even heavyweights like McCoy & Langtry) with no more than mild interest).

And it's not like he merely animated the dead, then used them for as maids & butlers (or something equally innocuous but anime-esque amusing) -- he used them brutally to advance his personal power, an Evil Wizard in the grand traditions of Evil.

But fine.  "Aside from necromancy" you say?

How about being the guy who spent over a century engineering WW1 (which arguably was in turn directly causative of WW2)?  That's about 80M dead, right there.  War crimes, genocide, crimes against humanity, you name it...

Even if you judge WW2 as not directly Kemmler's fault... WW2 is when he re-surfaced and "... animated mass graves and rampaged through Eastern Europe."  (n.b. "rampage" is distinctly not the maids-and-butlers use of undead).

... Did he do his job on the island?  Would Alfred let a warlock/criminal be Warden?  Did Kemmler use the leyline for his own ends?  Would Alfred allow him to do that? If he was so bad, why didn't he let some of the prisoners loose to aid him?  I'm sorry but something seems a bit off here, the pieces do not fit nicely in the puzzle ...

The Warden is supposed to use the leylines; the Warden is supposed to use all the tools at his disposal, and those are some very potent tools!

But Alfred doesn't give a f-ck about "warlock" or not, "criminal" or not... all Alfred cares about is whether the Warden is doing the job -- imprisoning the really big, really bad BigBad's, and keeping them confined.  By those standards, I expect Kemmler did an excellent job:  he'd hardly want any of those BigBads running around, messing up his own plans!

We know (or strongly suspect) that the Warden can semi-release imprisoned entities, "furlough" them but keep them leashed to the island and forced to return to their confinement when the Warden says so, but (during  their furlough) able to act in the world to some degree.  It's apparently one of the last-ditch powers a Warden can wield, and I expect we'll see it in the BAT (likely sooner, with one or more of the lesser prisoners such as a naagloshi).  So long as he put them back after, I presume Alfred was perfectly OK with any such actions Kemmler might have taken; again, it's a feature of the Warden role, not a "bug."
[side tangent, a nasty thought:  can the Warden fully-release a prisoner?  Not just a furlough, but a full-on "your time is done, the Well has no further claim upon you" ??!?  AFAIK we have never seen any indication of such a thing; and if the Warden indeed cannot do so, then Thomas is going to be stuck with Harry as his Warden-boss even after release... likely re-pissing-off Lara, and introducing major Thomas/Harry tensions (not to mention whatever tensions will exist from the fallout of what happens with Justine/Nemesis vs Harry) ]

... Tinfoil hat time, maybe Rashid was the only wizard with enough juice to get Kemmler off the island so he could be taken.  This is why Rashid limps and why the island/Alfred has a grudge against him?  Because it was Rashid that deprived the island/Alfred of it's caretaker/Warden, Kemmler?

That's an interesting theory.  Very interesting!  I don't think it's correct, but I do like it & AFAIK there is very little to go upon... perfect WAG material!