Who wanted the Fomor to rise?

[prince lotore]

Who wanted the Fomor to rise?  There is a couple sayings in the military that are said all the time because they are completely true.  “An army marches on its belly.”  “No plan survives contact with the enemy.”  “Don’t get into a land war in Asia.”  One of these ideas that doesn’t fit on a bumper sticker as well is the bigger the attack, the more precise the operation, the more planning and logistics you are going to need.  So when you look at the Fomor, a group laying so low most of the magic community didn’t even remember that they existed and there are some old beings out there.  So how does a group that is keeping a profile that low kidnap specific people all over the world at the same time.

 

And they do it as a major power is being completely destroyed by a spell that was so big that it affected every person capable of doing magic everywhere.  So either the Fomor have the logistical capabilities to have their entire civilization go from being in witness protection to running thousands of operations with 2 hours planning over the entire planet or someone told them it was going to happen.

 

And I don’t think they just told them that it was going to happen, they highlighted every target at the same time. Especially the pregnant ones. Luckily for the Fomor this is what they make all of their foot soldiers out of.  And at the same time, they actually pull off the white courts plan of take out the children and mothers. Making that wizard problem fade away. Now this hasn’t been said anywhere that I have read but  its easy to imagine that what ever “radar” or warning spells that might be in place to give the rest of the magic community some heads up of an attack like that might be blinded after Harry cast the spell.

 

Was the ritual going to have the same affect no matter who set it off?  Was it modified without the Red court knowing? Did it have to be directed to beings all over the world to be as effective? Was the plan to use the Reds as fuel for the heist the entire time?  If it was who told martin about the spell?  He seemed to have the spell as his nuclear option for over 100 yrs. Were there other sleeper agents in the Reds with the same mission?  Ebenezer did not seem to understand the personal danger he was in until the last moment so I don’t think he was in on it but could someone in the grey council be a traitor?  And what if it not a traitor? What if the higher powers (Mab, Odin, Merlin the original not the current(I find it hard to believe the guy who created a prison in multiple times periods simultaneously so he can put a god in jail would sit out the actual fight but that’s a different post)) are trying to clean house on a bunch of bad guys before they can be ready for the inevitable attack.

 

I honestly don’t know which way I’m leaning towards but I think it’s weird that with all the 3D chess players operating currently no one is even asking the questions.  Or maybe I have too much time on my hands

[vincentric]

It's all a Nemesis plot. The Outsiders have a long-time plan that is winding down to a major confrontation, the BAT.

The Formor would have probably risen after the Reds took out the White Council except for Harry taking out the Reds. The Reds would have been weakened by the fight and squabbling among themselves for leadership. (Remember, taking out the Red King was part of the plan.)

Instead, the Reds are gone from the table leaving a major power vacuum. The Formor have probably been secretly watching all coastal cities for hundreds of years. They had their own low profile spy network and were getting subtle guidance from Nemesis all along. They merely sent in their advance forces to establish beachheads and covert slave taking. They didn't do all this in just a few days, they had the better part of the two years between Changes and Peace Talks.

And the Formor were always a major power among the supernatural nations. As long as they stay in the sea, no one could take them out. But with the Reds gone, the White Council at its weakest and Winter occupied by the Outsiders, they saw an opportunity. Even if they failed, they have 2/3rds of the plant to hide in and their strongholds are not only well hidden but in places that are well defended just by the environment.

Chichen Itza was always going to be a big event because seemingly the casting of a Bloodline Curse takes a huge amount of power. It got even bigger because it was going to be a shot that reopened the war with the White Council while also heralding new leadership in the Red Court. Martin's scheme (Which he had over a century to plan) required a great deal of luck to get a newly fledged vampire like Susan in place by the altar or it's possible that he had an alternate strategy of killing Maggie and then having Susan sacrifice him as he turned as a fallback.

Yes, Mab and the other powers are trying to clean house before the BAT. They're going to need as unified a front as they can get to hold reality from within and without. One wonders how big a contribution normal humanity can make. Individually mortals are outmatched but determined mobs with torches and pitchforks have always been a threat. We have bigger, better organized and far better armed mobs today.

[g33k]

The fomor retreated to the deeps, where they had a profound advantage.  Remember, they were a major power opposing the fae; and while Winter & Summer spent resources fighting one another, the fomor just built theirs up... for millennia.

When did Ethniu muscle in, take over?  Dunno.  Maybe they found her down there... maybe that was already her domain... maybe their retreat there was not just "to the deeps" but "to accept the protection of Ethniu."

When did the Outsiders begin collaborating?  Was it only through Ethniu (or the Starborn Listen?) or was it more-generally with the fomor, perhaps Corb?   Again:  dunno.

But as best we know, the Fomor had millenia to build their intelligence-networks, to do their reconnaisance, to lay their plans.

And do not forget:  the big apocalyptic Starborn event is about to arrive.  The fomor know this as well as anyone.  So they can be certain that there will be major disruptions happening, where they can take advantage, and advance their own agendas.

I think they likely had multiple plans & contingency-plans ready to roll, depending on where the cracks first appeared, which of the major player(s) weakened, or fell.

[Tinfoil hat]

Who wanted the Fomor to rise?  There is a couple sayings in the military that are said all the time because they are completely true.  “An army marches on its belly.”  “No plan survives contact with the enemy.”  “Don’t get into a land war in Asia.”  One of these ideas that doesn’t fit on a bumper sticker as well is the bigger the attack, the more precise the operation, the more planning and logistics you are going to need.  So when you look at the Fomor, a group laying so low most of the magic community didn’t even remember that they existed and there are some old beings out there.  So how does a group that is keeping a profile that low kidnap specific people all over the world at the same time.

 

And they do it as a major power is being completely destroyed by a spell that was so big that it affected every person capable of doing magic everywhere.  So either the Fomor have the logistical capabilities to have their entire civilization go from being in witness protection to running thousands of operations with 2 hours planning over the entire planet or someone told them it was going to happen.

 

And I don’t think they just told them that it was going to happen, they highlighted every target at the same time. Especially the pregnant ones. Luckily for the Fomor this is what they make all of their foot soldiers out of.  And at the same time, they actually pull off the white courts plan of take out the children and mothers. Making that wizard problem fade away. Now this hasn’t been said anywhere that I have read but  its easy to imagine that what ever “radar” or warning spells that might be in place to give the rest of the magic community some heads up of an attack like that might be blinded after Harry cast the spell.

 

Was the ritual going to have the same affect no matter who set it off?  Was it modified without the Red court knowing? Did it have to be directed to beings all over the world to be as effective? Was the plan to use the Reds as fuel for the heist the entire time?  If it was who told martin about the spell?  He seemed to have the spell as his nuclear option for over 100 yrs. Were there other sleeper agents in the Reds with the same mission?  Ebenezer did not seem to understand the personal danger he was in until the last moment so I don’t think he was in on it but could someone in the grey council be a traitor?  And what if it not a traitor? What if the higher powers (Mab, Odin, Merlin the original not the current(I find it hard to believe the guy who created a prison in multiple times periods simultaneously so he can put a god in jail would sit out the actual fight but that’s a different post)) are trying to clean house on a bunch of bad guys before they can be ready for the inevitable attack.

 

I honestly don’t know which way I’m leaning towards but I think it’s weird that with all the 3D chess players operating currently no one is even asking the questions.  Or maybe I have too much time on my hands

I have always had the same questions.
The fomors rise was too quick,to well organised to be an impromptu thing.
Like the reds are gone at 5.00 am and by 6.00AM the fomor are on the move. Dont buy it.
I have always been of the opinion that the Ramps were meant to fail. And the fomor were meant to finish of the weakened WC. Before the Ethinu attacks Mab and the accords  further weakening the defenders of insider.
However  Mr Sunshine arranged things to disrupt the plans. Not completely but just enough.
Stay with me.
Nemesis plans to destroy the  WC using the Red court. The red court was planning on starting a war with the Wc and were a few years from being ready to start the war. Mr Sunshine using the swords makes  sure that Harry sets it off A few years  early (grave peril).
But Nemesis plan is  disrupted but in such a way that Nemesis decides to continue after all the war was going to happen anyway.
A few more years the WC would lose or win but with more damage. In this scenario at the en the fomor shows up as a mop up.

[seanham]

Don't forget that it is the Fomor who created the chemical weapon that took out 1/3rd of the Wardens in Cairo(?).

While the RC was old the Fomor is ancient they know how to play the game as well as the pros (Mab, One Eye, Mr. Sunshine). I wouldn't be surprised if the Big Bads of the world consider all of the "old" players as children. I have no evidence of this besides Eb saying to Harry in BG something to the effect of "This isn't everyone, not nearly everyone" to Harry saying that the battle of Chicago had all the big hitters. This leads me to believe that there are many more civilizations out there that we haven't seen. Maybe some/most of them are sleeping or are hidden deep in the Never Never but they are out there. If this is accurate then the big players we have seen are just a fraction of the players that make up the whole. My point by all this is that maybe the Fomor and other ancient civilizations are the true 3D chess players while the old and the new civilizations are just pawns. Like Palpatine using Darth Maul or Ventris for his own gains and then disposing of them. The point of the series is to lead up to the BAT for this to occur we need to have villains that are more than blood junkies or ego maniacs we will begin to see the string pullers in the next few books. Every few books the stakes get higher, we go from Harry the small-time detective, to Harry the (WC) warden, to Harry the Vampire Slayer, to Harry the Winter Knight. We are now in Harry the Wizard of Chicago era and I think the string pullers are just beginning to take note of this new power.

[g33k]

... the Fomor ... created the chemical weapon that took out 1/3rd of the Wardens in Cairo ...

I don't recall this event; pointer/linkie/cite, please, so I can go re-read?


I largely agree with most of thi; except:

... While the RC was old the Fomor is ancient they know how to play the game as well as the pros (Mab, One Eye, Mr. Sunshine) ...

Mr. Sunshine is in a league of his own.  The reason that he doesn't just "run the board" (& win) is that he is working to give humanity the freedom & scope to exert their own free will; not to exert his.

[peterwiggin94]

My suspicion is that the Chitchen Itza event was actually required to start bringing over the Outsiders to help the Formor. A fairly consistent part of the magic system is that the mood or atmosphere of the world matters. Dead Beat had Cowl messing with Chicago to "prime the pump" and Battle Ground showed that the fear of Chicago affected the spells cast during the battle. Since the big spell at the end of Changes affected so many people who weren't the Red Court, I suspect that certain spells would have been easier in the wake of the bloodline curse. I bet that it would have helped summoning an Outsider that is described as a peer to Mab. After being summoned, the Walker then helps the Formor assemble their forces and/or knock down some one like the king of the Tuatha as payment. It then starts assembling it's forces to assault Demonreach.

As for what the Outsiders get out it, beyond a Walker that gets summoned, is more chaos. Mab, Odin, and Uriel are chief forces in alliance for the current order among the natural world. Mab and Odin also established the Accords. Eliminating the Accords could pull away some of Winter's forces from the Wall and a massive global war would kill a lot of the people who could stand up to the Outsiders after they breached the Wall.

[seanham]

I don't recall this event; pointer/linkie/cite, please, so I can go re-read?

The quote comes from Bombshells:

“The one I made for the Red Court in the Congo was deadly enough,” Lord Froggy said, a smug tone in his voice.

My heart pounded even harder. During its war with the White Council, the Red Court had used some kind of nerve gas on a hospital tending wounded wizards. The weapon had killed tens of thousands of people in a city far smaller and less crowded than Chicago.”

My apologies for referencing the wrong city in my OP (didn't have the books close at the moment) but my point stands that there was a link between the Fomor and the RC.

[Avernite]

I would caution against seeing too much in the Fomor's abilities...

If only because we saw just how ridiculously outmatched their army was against the Sidhe. It makes the whole 'Fomor buildup' look like the Fomor sent their strength out skirmishing, while everyone else kept to their own skirmishing back. When one side brings the army, the other brings skirmishers, the army looks quite impressive.

And sure that's a sound strategy, kind of an inverse Trachenberg plan - if your ace can win any battle almost alone, why not fritter away your strength on skirmishes while your opponents must remain careful to husband reserves for a big battle.

So to me it's plausible that, in some sense, the Fomor HAD been building up, for something. They then went into overdrive when Changes happened, before they were ready; their skirmishers were strong, but having to put too much in reserves behind it. Then they gathered on Chicago, aiming to bring Ethniu out as an ace in the hole / the only way to win a battle, but with the army too weak to back her up, the defenders managed to keep (just) enough strength out of the battle to pitch it against Ethniu herself.

[g33k]

The quote comes from Bombshells:

TYVM!

...
My apologies for referencing the wrong city in my OP.

"C---o" is pretty similar!  !n understandable mistake, no harm no foul.

FWIW, tho:
Cairo is a major metropolis; at over 10M people, it's larger than any city in the USA, and in the EU only Paris (I think) is larger (I suspect it depends on whether you're counting by strict city-limits population, or including suburbs); the whole "city smaller and far less crowded than Chicago" bit absolutely rules out Cairo!!!
Whereas "the Congo" is a region, generally pretty jungle-ish, with 2 named nations (Democratic Republic of the Congo, and the Republic of Congo (mostly sharing the Congo river as their mutual border, in central & western Africa).

[KurtinStGeorge]

TYVM!
"C---o" is pretty similar!  !n understandable mistake, no harm no foul.

FWIW, tho:
Cairo is a major metropolis; at over 10M people, it's larger than any city in the USA, and in the EU only Paris (I think) is larger (I suspect it depends on whether you're counting by strict city-limits population, or including suburbs); the whole "city smaller and far less crowded than Chicago" bit absolutely rules out Cairo!!!
Whereas "the Congo" is a region, generally pretty jungle-ish, with 2 named nations (Democratic Republic of the Congo, and the Republic of Congo (mostly sharing the Congo river as their mutual border, in central & western Africa).

When you mentioned Cairo in your original post, maybe you were remembering that after Harry and Binder witnessed Lara beginning to devour Madeline in Turn Coat; and Harry rescued a wounded Binder from also getting eaten up by Lara, Binder gave Harry Madeline’s cell phone and it contained a phone number in Cairo, though beyond that there wasn’t any other information.

Though that phone number in Cairo probably doesn’t have anything to do with the Fomor, it’s was sure specific about location.  Like it might become important sometime in the future.  Now that I think about it, Cairo is right beside the Nile.  The Fomor could have had a presence there and could have been involved.  Though, I suppose this idea belongs in a different thread.

[g33k]

... Binder gave Harry Madeline’s cell phone and it contained a phone number in Cairo, though beyond that there wasn’t any other information.

Though that phone number in Cairo probably doesn’t have anything to do with the Fomor, it’s was sure specific about location.  Like it might become important sometime in the future ...

In fact, I suspect it's going to become VERY important...  Harry has yet to meet any supernaturals from ancient Egypt.

[LordDresden2]

I largely agree with most of thi; except:Mr. Sunshine is in a league of his own.  The reason that he doesn't just "run the board" (& win) is that he is working to give humanity the freedom & scope to exert their own free will; not to exert his.

This^^^.  I think that this is maybe the key issue.  Uriel probably has the raw power to do all kinds of awesome things, but he doesn't have the authority.  As JB observed a while back, the last time an Archangel took it on himself to do what he thought best instead of what God wanted, the results were kind of infamous.

Uriel is very sensitive on that point, he rebuked Harry once for shortening his name to 'Uri', because doing so removed the 'of God' from his Name.

I suspect that the key to the resolution of the whole BAT will probably turn on mortal free will in some fundamental way.

[Mira]

This^^^.  I think that this is maybe the key issue.  Uriel probably has the raw power to do all kinds of awesome things, but he doesn't have the authority.  As JB observed a while back, the last time an Archangel took it on himself to do what he thought best instead of what God wanted, the results were kind of infamous.

Uriel is very sensitive on that point, he rebuked Harry once for shortening his name to 'Uri', because doing so removed the 'of God' from his Name.

I suspect that the key to the resolution of the whole BAT will probably turn on mortal free will in some fundamental way.

Or I suspect it will turn out more like the poem some of us learned as children about "The Old Lady Who Ate a Fly.." You remember how it goes, paraphrasing,  "Oh my swallowed a fly, so she ate a spider to eat the fly.."  The Fomor are simply cat's paws for someone else, it isn't that some greater power wanted them to rise, they are simply being used by that greater power..  Various sorcerers, warlocks, etc being used by the Red Court, take out the Red Court and then there is the Fomor, they have been more or less taken out, so the question becomes who is next?


       


« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2024, 06:41:34 PM »

   

I would caution against seeing too much in the Fomor's abilities...

I agree.. It speaks to them being yet another cat's paw, scratching, toying, and distracting.