The Soul Gaze in Blood Rites, Something Margaret Said to Harry About Justine..

[Mira]

Small Favor

"Not having it could have gotten me killed, too," I said.  "And then you'd have wasted all that time you've put in trying to recruit me to be the next Winter Knight."

"Nonsense," Mab said.  "If you died, I would simply recruit your brother.  He would be well motivated to seek revenge upon your killers."

LordDresden2

That's a direct statement on Mab's part.  Not an implication, or a suggestion, or a hint, it's a direct declarative statement.  Either she means it...or she uttered a falsehood, which as far as know she simply can't.

This is also from Small Favor  Page 402

Quote
  "He isn't mortal," I said quietly. "I thought Knights had to be mortals,""He is in love," Grimalkin mrowled for Mab.  "That makes him mortal enough for me." She tilted her head.  Though I suppose I might make him an offer, while you yet live.  He would give much to hold his love again, would he not?"

You are correct that was a declarative statement by Mab.  However as you can see when Harry says Knights have to be mortal.  Mab hedges her bets, because Thomas is in love, that makes him mortal enough for her.  Then Mab hints that a bargain that could be made with Thomas so he could hold Justine.  This fogs up what the truth is just a bit, while Mab isn't exactly lying to Harry, she isn't exactly telling the truth either.. Though by her standards she is telling the truth, yes, she could recruit Thomas to be her Knight, that isn't the same as make Thomas her Knight.. However just the suggestion that she would recruit Thomas, puts pressure on Harry to become her Knight. Which is what Mab is really after.

[g33k]

...
You are correct that was a declarative statement by Mab.  However as you can see when Harry says Knights have to be mortal.  Mab hedges her bets, because Thomas is in love, that makes him mortal enough for her.  Then Mab hints that a bargain that could be made with Thomas so he could hold Justine.  This fogs up what the truth is just a bit, while Mab isn't exactly lying to Harry, she isn't exactly telling the truth either.. Though by her standards she is telling the truth, yes, she could recruit Thomas to be her Knight, that isn't the same as make Thomas her Knight.. However just the suggestion that she would recruit Thomas, puts pressure on Harry to become her Knight. Which is what Mab is really after.

That first declarative by Mab, however, would seem absolute:  even if  she later gave ambivalent wiggle-room replies, Mab has stated affirmatively that she would recruit Thomas.

Mab can be wrong -- mistaken -- but she cannot lie.

[Mira]

That first declarative by Mab, however, would seem absolute:  even if  she later gave ambivalent wiggle-room replies, Mab has stated affirmatively that she would recruit Thomas.

Mab can be wrong -- mistaken -- but she cannot lie.

  Recruit isn't the same as making Thomas her Knight.  No, she isn't lying about trying to recruit him, but she can recruit all she wants knowing full well it cannot happen.. Is she lying? No.  However she also knows the kind of effect at statement would have on Harry..  That's why one shouldn't bargain with the Fae, Mab in particular.  She is yanking Harry's chain by using the word recruit, she can say that and not lie.. Her aim is to get Harry as her Knight, not Thomas.  In fact I doubt Mab is even interested in Thomas as her Knight, even if it were possible. but she wants Harry to think she is interested..

There is also several quotes in Cold Days  over three pages which explains more or less as to why she may threaten to recruit Thomas, Mab isn't serious about it, even if it were possible, it's Harry that she wants.  This is where Mother Summer opens Harry's eyes to what Mab's real job is, and what is on the line, makes it easier to understand why Thomas just isn't suitable for the job.

page 331 Cold Days;

I jerked my eyes away with a short grunt of effort, closed them, and left them closed.  "Holy...Outsiders?  Mab's fighting Outsiders?"

Mother Summer is now hitting home on what Mab really does to Harry..page 332

"Did you think Mab spent all her days sitting in a chair and dealing with her backstabbing courtiers?  No, Sir Knight.  Power has purpose.

Finally on the next page Harry gets it..  333 Cold Days;

"You're telling me that this is why Mab has her power?  To...to protect the boarders?"  "To protect all of you from Outsiders, mortal."

This is why, though maybe she wasn't telling a lie about recruiting Thomas, she was still bluffing.  Thomas isn't a starborn, Harry is.. With the BAT coming Mab needs a Knight that can deal with Outsiders, that is Harry, not Thomas.. 

[LordDresden2]

  Recruit isn't the same as making Thomas her Knight.  No, she isn't lying about trying to recruit him, but she can recruit all she wants knowing full well it cannot happen.. Is she lying?

I'm not sure what that even means.  Recruit means make him her Knight, or at least that she would definitely offer him Knighthood.  She might (and I say might) be able to 'offer' it to someone she knows cannot accept it, but she would have to present her 'offer' supercarefully to get around the 'no falsehood' compulsion, and Thomas (or whoever) could easily force her to tell the truth with even a simple direct question.  It's an extreme stretch at best.

I'm pretty sure Mab can't get around the compulsion by 'qualifying' a statement later.  That would reduce the compulsion to nothing, it would be trivially easy to get around and nobody would even bother referring to the idea that the Sidhe can't speak a falsehood.

She can carefully phrase direct factual statements to imply a lie, or leave important information out, or otherwise lie with the truth, but the statements themselves must be factual at the time, or at least she has to truly believe they are factual at the time.

There just isn't much wiggle room in Mab's recruitment statement.

There is also several quotes in Cold Days  over three pages which explains more or less as to why she may threaten to recruit Thomas, Mab isn't serious about it, even if it were possible, it's Harry that she wants.  This is where Mother Summer opens Harry's eyes to what Mab's real job is, and what is on the line, makes it easier to understand why Thomas just isn't suitable for the job.

page 331 Cold Days;
Mother Summer is now hitting home on what Mab really does to Harry..page 332

Finally on the next page Harry gets it..  333 Cold Days;
This is why, though maybe she wasn't telling a lie about recruiting Thomas, she was still bluffing.  Thomas isn't a starborn, Harry is.. With the BAT coming Mab needs a Knight that can deal with Outsiders, that is Harry, not Thomas..

Yes, she wants Harry.  I'm sure she sees Thomas second best on several levels.  But if Harry is dead (really dead, I mean, gone and not coming back unless God wills it), then Thomas would be her next choice, because then she can't have Harry anyway.  Or at least, Thomas would have been her choice at that time, whether that's still true years later is another matter.

[Mira]

I'm not sure what that even means.  Recruit means make him her Knight, or at least that she would definitely offer him Knighthood.  She might (and I say might) be able to 'offer' it to someone she knows cannot accept it, but she would have to present her 'offer' supercarefully to get around the 'no falsehood' compulsion, and Thomas (or whoever) could easily force her to tell the truth with even a simple direct question.  It's an extreme stretch at best.

 You can be recruited to go to a school, for a job, to join the military, but you don't have to take any of those jobs.  Mab heavily recruited Harry for her Knight, he has close ties to the Fae, yet he could and did refuse the job.  It was only when he was completely out of good options to save his daughter, and being Winter Knight was the least bad of several bad options did he then volunteer for the job.  So yeah, she is telling the truth that she could recruit Thomas, but she also knows that doesn't mean that he would take it.  I also think it has been established as least as far as Red Court Vamps go that the Fae might be able to put that part asleep [in Susan's case] but not cure the problem.  So I doubt that Mab could get rid of the Hunger Demon.  Now as we learned in Changes, part of the becoming the Knight thing is sex with Mab, perhaps that would allow Thomas to embrace Justine once more.  However the kicker there that still doesn't make any sense, is if it was that simple, why didn't Justine or Thomas do it sooner.. Then is there a danger that Thomas could actually kill Mab during the mating ritual.  Could Mab prevent Thomas from feeding on her during the ritual?  What would that kind of food do to the Hunger Demon? Would Mab really want to risk that? One last note on offers and bargains, don't underestimate Mab when it comes to being super careful or super clever.  Ask Nic in Skin Game, Mab didn't lie to him, and you could say she kept her word to him, but did it in such a way that he got screwed and she got what she wanted.  That's the whole point of never make bargains with the Fae!  You think because they cannot tell a lie, and they will make that a strong selling point in any deal negotiation with them, you will come out on top... You never do because there is always a catch, a glitch, something that you over looked so you lose, and the loss is on you because they never lie.

She can carefully phrase direct factual statements to imply a lie, or leave important information out, or otherwise lie with the truth, but the statements themselves must be factual at the time, or at least she has to truly believe they are factual at the time.

And so it was, she said she could recruit, which was enough to freak Harry.. Why?  Because Harry himself is so freaked out about becoming Knight after seeing what the mantel did to Slate.. Mab knows this, so she tells the truth, "I can recruit your brother!"  Which Mab can, no lie, but Mab also knows that the mere suggestion of this to Harry sends all kinds of visions of horror dancing though his head if Thomas became her Knight.  Mab also knows that Harry would do almost anything to prevent Thomas becoming her Knight, including becoming it himself, which what she wants.

There just isn't much wiggle room in Mab's recruitment statement.

What she is saying and what she is thinking are two different things.

Yes, she wants Harry.  I'm sure she sees Thomas second best on several levels.  But if Harry is dead (really dead, I mean, gone and not coming back unless God wills it), then Thomas would be her next choice, because then she can't have Harry anyway.  Or at least, Thomas would have been her choice at that time, whether that's still true years later is another matter.

Now you are getting into hypotheticals, so Mab can say all of the above and be telling the truth in a "what if" world.. However whether it would actually come about is another matter for a number of reasons.. So Mab in that case can tell the truth without being committed to doing anything, which she would and does gleefully tell those who thought they had a deal with her, but didn't get what they wanted.

[g33k]

You can be recruited to go to a school, for a job, to join the military, but you don't have to take any of those jobs ...

There is an incorrect casual-usage as you say; "recruit" as "try to persuade to join."
But the correct definition is actually getting someone to join; you have not "recruited" them if they don't.

Note the passage you quoted above:

Small Favor

"Not having it could have gotten me killed, too," I said.  "And then you'd have wasted all that time you've put in trying to recruit me to be the next Winter Knight."

"Nonsense," Mab said.  "If you died, I would simply recruit your brother.  He would be well motivated to seek revenge upon your killers."

Harry: "... trying to recruit me..."
Mab: "I would simply recruit your brother."
It's clear Jim is writing with the correct usage, here (try vs would -- there is no try, Padawan!).

Mab would recruit Thomas (I mean, she'd try... successfully!  Let's face it:  Mab's 100% correct that Thomas would want revenge, and Thomas doesn't have Harry's pig-headedness, and Thomas has long been the Whamp poster-boy of go-along-to-get-along... Thomas wouldn't resist all that hard!)

But you're entirely correct, I think, in saying that none of this was what Mab wanted.  Whampire-Thomas wouldn't make nearly the caliber of Winter Knight that Starborn/Wizard Harry can be.  If things didn't work out, Thomas would have been Mab's "fallback plan," but (as she surmised) the collection of carrots + sticks that Mab had finally arrayed to get Harry as Knight was enough to do  the job.

[Mira]

Mab would recruit Thomas (I mean, she'd try... successfully!  Let's face it:  Mab's 100% correct that Thomas would want revenge, and Thomas doesn't have Harry's pig-headedness, and Thomas has long been the Whamp poster-boy of go-along-to-get-along... Thomas wouldn't resist all that hard!)

Without know what effect the mantle would have on the Hunger Demon?  Really?  Would Mab do that?  Consider how hard it was for Harry to resist the urge to rape after he acquired the mantle.. Now think about a demon who feeds off of sexual pleasure on steroids because of the mantle.. No, Mab was bluffing which isn't the same as lying..

In negotiations, bluffs are deceptions that are acceptable to both parties, while lies are deceptions that are unacceptable to both parties. Bluffing is considered a moral-free negotiating tactic, while lying can be reduced by means of a code of conduct

This is why you don't negotiate with the Fae!  While it is true that they cannot lie, they can and will bluff!  There are good reasons why Mab wouldn't want Thomas as he Knight and very solid reasons why she wants Harry.  Will she lie to get her way? No, the Fae don't lie, but will she bluff? Hell yeah.

But you're entirely correct, I think, in saying that none of this was what Mab wanted.  Whampire-Thomas wouldn't make nearly the caliber of Winter Knight that Starborn/Wizard Harry can be.  If things didn't work out, Thomas would have been Mab's "fallback plan," but (as she surmised) the collection of carrots + sticks that Mab had finally arrayed to get Harry as Knight was enough to do  the job.

I doubt that Thomas was ever Mab's fall back plan, because of the Hunger Demon, that's the wild card in this.  It would simply be too great a risk.

[Dina]

I came very late to this party, but I have a few comments I want to make.

As it was said, most white court are children of a human. I am not sure if it is possible for two white vampires to have a child, and I do not know if that child would be more or less powerful than a regular white court vampire. Also, I think Inari did kill her demon.

Justine: I do not think she was nemfected since the beginning. It would be very sad if Thomas has conceived a child with a shell body encasing Nemesis. I think Justine is still there, in her body.

Thomas being mortal enough because he was in love is a very weird statement and I am still not sure what that means. But I suspect the problem is that Harry thought the Knight had to be mortal, but in true it has to be "mortal enough". I think being in love is not the reason he is "mortal enough" but the proof that he is one. Which would imply that fae and probably red and black vampires and other things are not able to love.

Mab inability to lie is always complicated to me because I think that when she pretended to be someone else (in SK? I do not remember, when she pretended to be neighbour or something) she said a few things that were not literally true. I cannot check it now. But I do think when she said she would have offered the position to Thomas, she meant that. Thomas is a sub par choice, but he is still Margaret son and I have the feeling that is what Mab values.

[g33k]

Without know what effect the mantle would have on the Hunger Demon?  Really?  Would Mab do that?  Consider how hard it was for Harry to resist the urge to rape after he acquired the mantle.. Now think about a demon who feeds off of sexual pleasure on steroids because of the mantle.. No, Mab was bluffing which isn't the same as lying..

I think you underestimate Mab; she knows exactly what a Whampire Winterknight will be like (I suspect she has had them before).

It would be the simplest thing in the world to prevent rape:  surfeit the Knight with entirely-willing wintersidhe.  Give him an entourage of cold-day hotties.  Slate was a sociopath, but the Hunger Demon is just hungry:  feed it and it's pretty quiescent (it's the human side of things that turn it so very awful... but of course Whampire upbringing tends a bit toward the awful, so that's over-represented).

But Thomas?  Nah, he'd be satisfied to have a faerie courtier every other day or so.

(n.b. we saw that Thomas could have ongoing relations with svartalves, and Connie could be surfeited just with Irwin)

[Mira]

Mab inability to lie is always complicated to me because I think that when she pretended to be someone else (in SK? I do not remember, when she pretended to be neighbour or something) she said a few things that were not literally true. I cannot check it now. But I do think when she said she would have offered the position to Thomas, she meant that. Thomas is a sub par choice, but he is still Margaret son and I have the feeling that is what Mab values.
[/quote

Spot on Dina!  Two statements apply to the Fae. 1] They cannot lie, everyone believes that and the Fae themselves harp on that point. 2] Never bargain with the Fae, you always almost end up with the short end of the stick so to speak. 

Statement one is totally incompatible with statement two.  Why? Because if you are bargaining with someone who cannot lie, you trust that everything they are telling you is true.  However if you put your trust in the Fae cannot lie when you bargain with them.. You are in trouble, because somewhere along the line whatever it was you were believing a Fae was telling you truthfully, gets twisted. 

The Fae may not lie, but they do bluff, not the same.  If you don't understand that, you are lost in any negotiation with them.  So while the Fae cannot lie, you should never trust them or what they say completely..

It would be the simplest thing in the world to prevent rape:  surfeit the Knight with entirely-willing wintersidhe.  Give him an entourage of cold-day hotties.  Slate was a sociopath, but the Hunger Demon is just hungry:  feed it and it's pretty quiescent (it's the human side of things that turn it so very awful... but of course Whampire upbringing tends a bit toward the awful, so that's over-represented).

I think you underestimate the Hunger Demon.

[g33k]

I think you underestimate the Hunger Demon. 

AFAIK, no "Hunger Demon" has ever been shown to take more than one victim in a single feeding.

Blampires & Rampires both seem to actually relish bloodshed, readily killing multiples at once.  I think the "blood reserve" in the Rampire's abdomen might actually be able to store up to 2-3 people's blood; but no more (otoh, they seem to use it up magically, not just metabolically; so if exerting themselves on a sustained basis might go through many more per day... but then, so too do Whampires' exertions cause increased demand).

I'm unclear about the precise mechanisms of Blampires' psychic / magic / physical "need" to kill... do they  actually eat their prey?  Do they need the blood they take (to survive? to thrive? to avoid quiescent vamp-coma)?  Do they need to kill, or could they take a pint a day from a large donor-group with  no major impact (but just don't want to)?  Is it just the twisted-undead version of a reproductive urge?  Or what??!?

But my point is:  Whamps don't seem to do the large-scale massacres that Ramps & Blamps do; they mostly only need to dispose of one corpse at a time, and usually only feed-to-death in extremis (out of control)... though there are exceptions (Madeline comes to mind, I think she killed readily; and I think the Skavis/Malvora "usual" feeding was to death).

[Mira]

AFAIK, no "Hunger Demon" has ever been shown to take more than one victim in a single feeding.

So?    One at a time, they add up... And with the power and super quickness of a vampire along uberurges of the Hunger Demon, and damn... There could be bodies all over the place..

Blampires & Rampires both seem to actually relish bloodshed, readily killing multiples at once.  I think the "blood reserve" in the Rampire's abdomen might actually be able to store up to 2-3 people's blood; but no more (otoh, they seem to use it up magically, not just metabolically; so if exerting themselves on a sustained basis might go through many more per day... but then, so too do Whampires' exertions cause increased demand).

Hunger Demon is a little different..

I'm unclear about the precise mechanisms of Blampires' psychic / magic / physical "need" to kill... do they  actually eat their prey?  Do they need the blood they take (to survive? to thrive? to avoid quiescent vamp-coma)?  Do they need to kill, or could they take a pint a day from a large donor-group with  no major impact (but just don't want to)?  Is it just the twisted-undead version of a reproductive urge?  Or what??!?

Again that doesn't seem to be how the Hunger Demon works..

But my point is:  Whamps don't seem to do the large-scale massacres that Ramps & Blamps do; they mostly only need to dispose of one corpse at a time, and usually only feed-to-death in extremis (out of control)... though there are exceptions (Madeline comes to mind, I think she killed readily; and I think the Skavis/Malvora "usual" feeding was to death).

Doesn't have to be mass killing to do damage to the Winter Court or Mab, killing one is enough, if it is the wrong one that is killed.

[Dina]

Mira, I really not think that Thomas is powerful enough to kill Mab. Also, remember the sex scene of Harry accepting the job is something...mystical, i don't know. Harry did not have physical sex with Mab, I think. His body was still laying with a broken back. So I imagine if Thomas would be accepted as Winter Knight, his seduction powers and hunger would be irrelevant, because his demon would not be really touching Mab's body.

[Mira]

Mira, I really not think that Thomas is powerful enough to kill Mab. Also, remember the sex scene of Harry accepting the job is something...mystical, i don't know. Harry did not have physical sex with Mab, I think. His body was still laying with a broken back. So I imagine if Thomas would be accepted as Winter Knight, his seduction powers and hunger would be irrelevant, because his demon would not be really touching Mab's body.

  I have to go back and reread, but I think Harry did have physical sex with Mab, the way I remember it his back was fixed as soon as he agreed to become her Knight.  However you could be right that wasn't physical, I just don't remember it that way. 

The Hunger Demon never touches any body, it feeds through the host.

[Dina]

The Hunger Demon never touches any body, it feeds through the host.

True, but still, Thomas would not be really touching Mab. At least, that is what I think. I have been arguing for years that Mab could not have Harry's baby because they do not do real physical sex.