The Soul Gaze in Blood Rites, Something Margaret Said to Harry About Justine..

[Mira]

While Justine was near death is an excellent possibility for when she was Nemfected, though. Thomas thought she was already gone, Lord Raith would have had ample opportunity to let his allies get at her while she was convalescing.  It's not conclusive though, have been other Outsider collaborators in the White Court who could have got to her later.
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  The Hunger Demon would know though whether or not Justine was dead.  Margaret says, "It knows she is gone."
  Whether Thomas believes it or not is important and becomes important as we see in Peace Talks where he is willing to murder to keep the woman he believes is very much alive, safe.  What I am wondering is there a connection between Nemesis and the Hunger Demon?  Did Margaret come to realize this?  Is this why she was compelled to conceive a star child with Malcolm? Is this to the key of while she couldn't kill Lord Raith outright with her death curse, perhaps she could damage the Hunger Demon?  Yes, Nemesis still protects Lord Raith, keeping him alive, however he is weakened considerably because his Hunger Demon is effectively dead?

And yes, Justine was one of those long term under the radar plans. Lord Raith just happens to send the beautiful insane Justine to Thomas. Thomas is so charmed that he falls in love and feeds on her just enough to cure her insanity? Then they play all these games for years to prevent "true love" from burning him, until it is believed that star born Harry is dead, then suddenly oh just a little unfaithful lesbian sex will cure the burning on contact? When for years it was common knowledge that was all it took to break any true love protection?  In the meantime because of Justine'd supposed willing sacrifice to save Thomas, she is given an inside job with Lara and knows everything that goes on with the White Court.  Talk about three dimensional chess, how about four or five dimensional chess?  Nemesis is playing it well, or did up until the last moment in Battle Ground when Harry discovered that Justine was possessed by HWWB.

[KurtinStGeorge]

What I am wondering is there a connection between Nemesis and the Hunger Demon?  Did Margaret come to realize this?  Is this why she was compelled to conceive a star child with Malcolm? Is this to the key of while she couldn't kill Lord Raith outright with her death curse, perhaps she could damage the Hunger Demon? 

Like there is a connection between the Black Court and Outsiders?  That is an interesting thought.  You might be on to something.

However, Mavra mentioned something in Battle Ground about "ruling in the rubble" following the Stars and Stones.  Whatever the exact quote is, it isn't important as much as it tells us the Black Court has a long-term plan and because the Black Court is connected in someway to the Outsiders their plan is most likely tied into Outsider goals.

So far, we haven't seen that kind of end-game thinking from the White Court yet, other than Lara knowing about Nemesis. That could be because Lord Raith has been effectively if temporarily put on the sideline or permanently lobotomized.  If he was still in power, perhaps Lord Raith would have revealed his endgame plan for the White Court. 

What bothers about this line of thinking is, the White Court seems to thrive with civilization.  I'm not seeing a strong motivation to see mortal civilization torn apart.  While the Black Court could benefit from some kind of post apocalyptic world.

In the end, this doesn't nullify your thinking.  One way to explain it is unintended consequences.  The Outsiders are so different from our world they can't anticipate everything.  Maybe there is a connection between Outsiders and the White Court Hunger Demon, but the Outsiders couldn't have known that their creation or one-time close ally would eventually have a strong reason to oppose them.   

[Mira]

What bothers about this line of thinking is, the White Court seems to thrive with civilization.  I'm not seeing a strong motivation to see mortal civilization torn apart.  While the Black Court could benefit from some kind of post apocalyptic world.

Yes, they do appear civilized, but are they really?  They are cultured, clean, rich, attractive, so they are allowed to thrive, we think of them as civilized.  However these are the same beings who will suck the life out of a mortal by feeding upon his or her emotions. This a group of beings that think of vanilla human beings as "kine" or prey to be fed upon.. This is the group that would imprison the little folk so they can have nice colorful lanterns at their parties.  So as long as they have a source of food, and can create their own "civilized" islands they can thrive in a post apoplectic world as well as the Black Court in my opinion. 

[Avernite]

Yes, they do appear civilized, but are they really?  They are cultured, clean, rich, attractive, so they are allowed to thrive, we think of them as civilized.  However these are the same beings who will suck the life out of a mortal by feeding upon his or her emotions. This a group of beings that think of vanilla human beings as "kine" or prey to be fed upon.. This is the group that would imprison the little folk so they can have nice colorful lanterns at their parties.  So as long as they have a source of food, and can create their own "civilized" islands they can thrive in a post apoplectic world as well as the Black Court in my opinion.

Eh, I could see some deluded megalomaniac thinking that, but not the sophisticated strategists that actually lead the White Court. It's easier to prey on a thriving species over one that's marginalized and you have to actively farm.

Humans also started farming fish on a serious scale only when the seas stopped providing quite so plentiful.

[Mira]

Eh, I could see some deluded megalomaniac thinking that, but not the sophisticated strategists that actually lead the White Court. It's easier to prey on a thriving species over one that's marginalized and you have to actively farm.

 I wouldn't call farming humans for food exactly civilized.

[LordDresden2]

I wouldn't call farming humans for food exactly civilized.

'Civilized' in this context does not mean 'moral'.  The traditional root of the word 'civilized' is 'city dweller'.  It implies large-scale social organization, complexity, sophistication, but by no means necessarily morality.  The gladiatorial games in ancient Rome were quite 'civilized' entertainments, for all being organized mass torture and murder.  When they enter decadent phases, civilizations often become very morally corrupt.

The White Court is all about decadence.  The White Court nobles tend to have expensive, sophisticated tastes.  They like fine wines, delicate foods, vintage cars, expensive clothes, silk and satin and fine carved furniture and woven rugs that cost more than a working-class family lives on in a year.

In Turn Coat, Binder points this out.

In a post-apocalyptic world, a lot of the luxuries the White Court so like simply could not exist.  Yeah, they could have their little protected enclaves, but a lot of the delicious, luxurious products that they so love absolutely require a sophisticated world-wide economy and tech base to produce and maintain.

Such little protected islands would have no silver wraith cars, no super-expensive foods flown in from around the world, there'd be no movies and TV shows and so forth. 

Every box of fine chocolates Lara indulges in implies cocoa farms, harvesting personnel, transportation to get the harvest to the factory, a factory to process it, a chocolatier to take the processed chocolate and make the expensive little tidbits out of it, more distribution systems to get that $1000.00 box of chocolates to Lara's bedroom.  Which implies gasoline and jet fuel and communications, which imply refineries and oil wells and TV/radio equipment or at least telegraphs or systems of messengers, etc.

Magic can get around some of this, but not nearly all.

Life even in the nobles' protected fortresses would be a lot less delicious and rich and exotic than the nobles have now.

Yeah, the White Court loves civilization.  Doesn't make them any the less predators who feed on people.

[KurtinStGeorge]

LordDresden2 makes a really good point, but I would like to add something else. 

A White Court vampire is an odd creature when compared to other types of vampires that we know of.  Black Court and Red Court vampires take a human and literally transform them into something else.  In a very real way they destroy the original human.  However, a White Court vampire is a hybrid creature.  It is human-being that had a demon implanted within it before it was born, but the human is still there. 

We know a White Court vamp isn’t a simulacrum of a human because Thomas’ little sister Inari was able to kill her demon before it took hold of her.  (Saying the Power of Love killed the demon sounds like Huey Lewis and the News killed the demon and I never really liked Huey Lewis.)   

The White Court demon doesn’t originate from our world, so it isn’t really a part of human civilization.  The human part of a White Court vampire can appreciate the finer things that come with human civilization.  Though we don’t know very much about White Court demons, I wouldn’t be surprised if they are not interested in these luxuries; and the only benefit of human civilization they enjoy is that human civilization tends to create many more targets of opportunity to feed on and a larger crowd to blend in with to make hiding in plain site much easier.

It is this otherness of the White Court demon that I really wanted to talk about.  Thinking about the soulgaze where Harry witnessed his brother fighting against the demon trying to come through the mirror, it reminds me of these other creatures who are also trying to enter our reality, Outsiders.

I am wondering if White Court demons are a lessor form of Outsiders or if they might be a failed attempt by Outsiders to enter our reality.  Yes, they do get inside our reality but they remain trapped within their human host.  When their host dies, they die.  Unlike Nemesis, they cannot fully dominate their host.  The demon wants to feed, to destroy, and they do that to a degree, but the human part of them channels most of that energy and supernatural abilities into human endeavors, like becoming wealthy, powerful or building a political empire.   

[Mira]

A White Court vampire is an odd creature when compared to other types of vampires that we know of.  Black Court and Red Court vampires take a human and literally transform them into something else.  In a very real way they destroy the original human.  However, a White Court vampire is a hybrid creature.  It is human-being that had a demon implanted within it before it was born, but the human is still there.

  But doesn't change the fact that that they kill humans to survive. 

We know a White Court vamp isn’t a simulacrum of a human because Thomas’ little sister Inari was able to kill her demon before it took hold of her.  (Saying the Power of Love killed the demon sounds like Huey Lewis and the News killed the demon and I never really liked Huey Lewis.)   

Actually Inari hadn't killed the Hunger Demon yet, it was the hope of both Thomas and Lara that she loved her boyfriend enough that that would be the outcome.  So we won't know unless we meet up with Inari again in a future book.

The White Court demon doesn’t originate from our world, so it isn’t really a part of human civilization.  The human part of a White Court vampire can appreciate the finer things that come with human civilization.  Though we don’t know very much about White Court demons, I wouldn’t be surprised if they are not interested in these luxuries; and the only benefit of human civilization they enjoy is that human civilization tends to create many more targets of opportunity to feed on and a larger crowd to blend in with to make hiding in plain site much easier.

Is why if it is true, it points to a possible connection between Outsiders and what is protecting Lord Raith.

It is this otherness of the White Court demon that I really wanted to talk about.  Thinking about the soulgaze where Harry witnessed his brother fighting against the demon trying to come through the mirror, it reminds me of these other creatures who are also trying to enter our reality, Outsiders.

Yes.

I am wondering if White Court demons are a lessor form of Outsiders or if they might be a failed attempt by Outsiders to enter our reality.  Yes, they do get inside our reality but they remain trapped within their human host.  When their host dies, they die.  Unlike Nemesis, they cannot fully dominate their host.  The demon wants to feed, to destroy, and they do that to a degree, but the human part of them channels most of that energy and supernatural abilities into human endeavors, like becoming wealthy, powerful or building a political empire.   

I think the Hunger Demon does fully dominate their host. Why? Because once the Hunger Demon has fully established itself, the host needs to feed it, i.e. usually kill, to survive.  Remember how Lara and later Thomas talked after the Skin Walker was finished with him, they enjoy it..  There is another side to the strength that the host gains from the Hunger Demon, power.  That is the most addictive power on earth..  Maybe because he was Margaret's son, Thomas never quite got to that point, he never was interested in empire building unlike his sister, Lara, who clearly is.

[KurtinStGeorge]

But doesn't change the fact that that they kill humans to survive.

I think the Hunger Demon does fully dominate their host. Why? Because once the Hunger Demon has fully established itself, the host needs to feed it, i.e. usually kill, to survive.  Remember how Lara and later Thomas talked after the Skin Walker was finished with him, they enjoy it..  There is another side to the strength that the host gains from the Hunger Demon, power.  That is the most addictive power on earth..  Maybe because he was Margaret's son, Thomas never quite got to that point, he never was interested in empire building unlike his sister, Lara, who clearly is.

Yes, but I'm not implying that the human side of a White Court vamp is morally superior to the demon within it; and Thomas is an outlier, the human side is almost always corrupted by the drives of the demon and its need to feed.  What I am saying is that the human need to socialize and the desire of the host to fit in with uncorrupted humans to ensure its own safety, ends up deflecting the goals of the demon from shear destruction into something that seeks to protect humanity in general, if only for its own selfish ends. 

The corrupted human part of a White Court vampire who cannot love another or is afraid to try to do so because love is literal poison to them, can be likened to a psychopath or someone with narcissistic personality disorder, someone who lacks empathy for other people.  Though I suspect that Jim would say my comparison falls short or misses the mark in some key way.  None the less, a vanilla person like the types I named above will often try to fill up the empty space within them with sensation seeking, material possessions or building up an empire of some sort, perhaps in business or politics. 

And empire building is the opposite of what Outsiders want to achieve.  The want to destroy human order of any kind, even the morally decadent and corrupted civilization the White Court would create.   

[LordDresden2]

I think the Hunger Demon does fully dominate their host. Why? Because once the Hunger Demon has fully established itself, the host needs to feed it, i.e. usually kill, to survive.  Remember how Lara and later Thomas talked after the Skin Walker was finished with him, they enjoy it..  There is another side to the strength that the host gains from the Hunger Demon, power.  That is the most addictive power on earth..  Maybe because he was Margaret's son, Thomas never quite got to that point, he never was interested in empire building unlike his sister, Lara, who clearly is.

Yes, but I'm not implying that the human side of a White Court vamp is morally superior to the demon within it; and Thomas is an outlier, the human side is almost always corrupted by the drives of the demon and its need to feed.  What I am saying is that the human need to socialize and the desire of the host to fit in with uncorrupted humans to ensure its own safety, ends up deflecting the goals of the demon from shear destruction into something that seeks to protect humanity in general, if only for its own selfish ends. 

We already can be pretty sure that the demon-parasites don't totally dominate their human hosts, because we've seen what that looks like when it does happen, the 'silver eyes' state.  Remember Thomas in Turn Coat, when he was about to attack Molly:  he wasn't acting like Thomas, he wasn't even acting like a sapient being.  It was more like an animal.

I'm not at all sure how much actual independent intelligence the White Court demons possess.  When they're in control, they seem to act primarily on predatory instinct.  It might have the same sort of awareness that a hungry bear or tiger has, not purely mindless but not really thinking in any abstract or sophisticated way, either.  Thomas' demon might perceive that he drew spiritual support from his relationship with Justine, but I'm not sure it has any grasp of why or what that means.

Remember, too, what Thomas told Harry:  the demon tries to feed at any time when there is flesh-to-flesh contact with another human.  Most of the time, the human host can suppress it, which is why a White Court vampire can shake someone's hand or something without feeding.  They only go full silver eyes if they go too long without feeding.

Thomas mentioned that Madeline had never trained herself to suppress the reflex, but he was kind of contemptuous about it, apparently most of the WC do manage to control it most of the time.

That said, I agree with Mira that there is almost surely an Outsider connection of some kind with the parasites.  It's interesting that Thomas and Lara both use 'empty night' as a swear phrase.

[Mira]

We already can be pretty sure that the demon-parasites don't totally dominate their human hosts, because we've seen what that looks like when it does happen, the 'silver eyes' state.  Remember Thomas in Turn Coat, when he was about to attack Molly:  he wasn't acting like Thomas, he wasn't even acting like a sapient being.  It was more like an animal.

That could be said of the Red Court Vampires as well, Bianca could act very civilized, until she got hungry or decided to attack.  The silver eyes signaling that the demon needs to feed to survive or is about to attack, what control did the host have over that? None, because the demon took over.  Also Thomas has no problem calling on the demon when he needs to fight, to help him. Thomas tried to control his demon and nearly starved to death..  Then there is the other aspect that Thomas confesses to Harry after the Skin Walker got to him, he enjoyed killing.  In short Thomas may have some control but his life depends on the demon, and the demon depends on him, neither can live without the other at this point.  In any contest between host and this parasite, the parasite always wins.. No, free will for Thomas or any other White Court vampire is an illusion.

I'm not at all sure how much actual independent intelligence the White Court demons possess.  When they're in control, they seem to act primarily on predatory instinct.  It might have the same sort of awareness that a hungry bear or tiger has, not purely mindless but not really thinking in any abstract or sophisticated way, either.  Thomas' demon might perceive that he drew spiritual support from his relationship with Justine, but I'm not sure it has any grasp of why or what that means.

 
Yeah, but that is a bit fuzzy as well, I think it is very complicated.  You have the Hunger demon, in order to survive it needs to eat, so as you say acts like a tiger or bear.  However even tigers and bears have hunting strategies that are driven by their hunger, otherwise they starve.  The Hunger demon drives it's human host to stalk (odd phrase I know since they feed on the pleasure emotion of others) a victim and then feed upon it. In turn the host get longer life, super human strength etc, the host has figured out, and I imagine the demon as well, that they can't go around feeding until death it's prey and survive in the modern world.  So it has made adjustments, but that doesn't make it civilized or different other vampires.

Remember, too, what Thomas told Harry:  the demon tries to feed at any time when there is flesh-to-flesh contact with another human.  Most of the time, the human host can suppress it, which is why a White Court vampire can shake someone's hand or something without feeding.  They only go full silver eyes if they go too long without feeding.

Same could be said for Black Court or Red Court vampires as well..

Thomas mentioned that Madeline had never trained herself to suppress the reflex, but he was kind of contemptuous about it, apparently most of the WC do manage to control it most of the time.

Perhaps because Madeline fed off different emotions than Thomas did.  If I remember correctly she fed off of fear and terror, the more she freaked out her prey the more well fed she became.  Where as Thomas fed off of sensual and sexual pleasure, also he and Lara both gave out seductive vibes to a would be victim.. Almost all their victims were willing victims. 

[vincentric]

That could be said of the Red Court Vampires as well, Bianca could act very civilized, until she got hungry or decided to attack.  The silver eyes signaling that the demon needs to feed to survive or is about to attack, what control did the host have over that? None, because the demon took over.  Also Thomas has no problem calling on the demon when he needs to fight, to help him. Thomas tried to control his demon and nearly starved to death..  Then there is the other aspect that Thomas confesses to Harry after the Skin Walker got to him, he enjoyed killing.  In short Thomas may have some control but his life depends on the demon, and the demon depends on him, neither can live without the other at this point.  In any contest between host and this parasite, the parasite always wins.. No, free will for Thomas or any other White Court vampire is an illusion. 

The only time the Red Court is comparable to the White Court is when they are not fully turned like Susan, Martin and others in the Fellowship of St. Giles. Susan demonstrated strength, speed, stamina and regenerative powers on par with Thomas that were fueled by blood and not lust. Reds don't become true monsters until after their first kill. They can then look and act human, but their humanity is gone.

Whites remain human throughout their lives but have superhuman abilities. But as long as they have made some effort in their early lives or are not pushed to their physical limits, they retain control of their demon. Both Thomas and Lara have been talked out of their silver eyed states. They enjoy their kills on a visceral level but are capable of feeling regret and guilt afterwards. If Lara couldn't control her daemon, she couldn't have given Thomas energy on the ride to Demonreach. If they didn't have free will. Uriel wouldn't have sympathy for them. Whites have free will but most of them accept or embrace being monsters, they just control their rampages better than most because they don't actually have to kill.

[Mira]

The only time the Red Court is comparable to the White Court is when they are not fully turned like Susan, Martin and others in the Fellowship of St. Giles. Susan demonstrated strength, speed, stamina and regenerative powers on par with Thomas that were fueled by blood and not lust. Reds don't become true monsters until after their first kill. They can then look and act human, but their humanity is gone.

This is the definition of humanity;

The word humanity is from the Latin humanitas for "human nature, kindness.” Humanity includes all the humans, but it can also refer to the kind feelings humans often have for each other.

Thomas might exhibit it to some extent, but the word doesn't fit most White Court Vamps.  Lara doesn't do anything out of kindness.

They enjoy their kills on a visceral level but are capable of feeling regret and guilt afterwards.

Thomas didn't feel any guilt about killing those girls, Lara has never felt any guilt.

If they didn't have free will. Uriel wouldn't have sympathy for them. Whites have free will but most of them accept or embrace being monsters, they just control their rampages better than most because they don't actually have to kill.

They don't have free will once the Hunger Demon gets hold, for that reason Uriel would feel sympathy..

[KurtinStGeorge]

I'm not at all sure how much actual independent intelligence the White Court demons possess.  When they're in control, they seem to act primarily on predatory instinct.  It might have the same sort of awareness that a hungry bear or tiger has, not purely mindless but not really thinking in any abstract or sophisticated way, either.  Thomas' demon might perceive that he drew spiritual support from his relationship with Justine, but I'm not sure it has any grasp of why or what that means.

Remember, too, what Thomas told Harry:  the demon tries to feed at any time when there is flesh-to-flesh contact with another human.  Most of the time, the human host can suppress it, which is why a White Court vampire can shake someone's hand or something without feeding.  They only go full silver eyes if they go too long without feeding.

Thomas mentioned that Madeline had never trained herself to suppress the reflex, but he was kind of contemptuous about it, apparently most of the WC do manage to control it most of the time.

That said, I agree with Mira that there is almost surely an Outsider connection of some kind with the parasites.  It's interesting that Thomas and Lara both use 'empty night' as a swear phrase.

How intelligent the White Court demons might be is difficult to determine.  I suspect there is more intelligence than just that of an animal while in hunting mode.  The clue that tells me this is in the soulgaze that Harry shared with Thomas.

The Hunger hissed more words at Thomas. "What is it saying?" I asked.

"It's telling him to give up. That there's no point in fighting anymore. That it will never leave him in peace."

Perhaps the demon wasn't using actual words.  That could be Harry's projection of what was happening.  Even if the demon was only communicating with unspoken ideas and images, that shows a degree of intelligence a bit above being a shark or polar bear on the hunt.

They don't have free will once the Hunger Demon gets hold, for that reason Uriel would feel sympathy..

I don't think this is true, otherwise how did Lara stop herself twice; once while in the Raith Deeps and a second time after Harry blasted both of them out of the Deeps, when she would have been hungry after using so much energy.  Lara has learned to master her hunger when she needs to do so or sees a valid reason to do so.  The valid reason was keeping her promise to Harry and honoring his guest rights.  Of course, if Lara had been starving she probably would not have been able to hold back.

This means Lara; and by extension, all White Court vampires have free will, unless they are pushed to extremis.  Though their demon exerts constant pressure on them, it can be controlled, at least to a degree.  This is why Uriel feels sympathy for the members of the White Court.  Their free will to make a better choice isn't eliminated but is severely constrained and they are always being pushed to just give in and go the other way.