The Soul Gaze in Blood Rites, Something Margaret Said to Harry About Justine..

[Mira]

  I was rereading the passage in Blood Rites where Harry has his soul gaze with Thomas and has a conversation with Margaret.
  She tells Harry something about Thomas, the Hunger Demon, and Justine that caught my eye.

Blood Rites, page 171

My mother nodded at Thomas."The girl he loved.  She is gone.  She was his strength.  It knows that."

Margaret doesn't say that Thomas thinks she is gone.   She doesn't say, Believes she is gone.No, she says quite clearly that Justine is gone.  Maybe I am just splitting hairs here, but it seems to me that Margaret isn't beating around the bush here, Justine is gone, as in dead.  You might ask the question about how would she know for sure?  Which is a good question, but Margaret also says that the Hunger Demon in Thomas knows.  So if Margaret meant that Justine was indeed dead, could this be the moment when Nemesis made it's entrance?  Also there is a reason for the Hunger Demon to go along, if it is connected to Outsiders.  Anyway, if I am right, Thomas did kill Justine after all in Blood Rites, and then her body was taken over by Nemesis, the Hunger playing along.  Nemesis needed years to get all the chess pieces in place, years to manipulate Thomas into striking when he did.  Nemesis needed Justine's body for that, needed to be Justine to manipulate Thomas into the events that led to Battle Ground. 

[g33k]

  I was rereading the passage in Blood Rites where Harry has his soul gaze with Thomas and has a conversation with Margaret.
  She tells Harry something about Thomas, the Hunger Demon, and Justine that caught my eye.

Blood Rites, page 171
Margaret doesn't say that Thomas thinks she is gone.   She doesn't say, Believes she is gone.No, she says quite clearly that Justine is gone.  Maybe I am just splitting hairs here, but it seems to me that Margaret isn't beating around the bush here, Justine is gone, as in dead.  You might ask the question about how would she know for sure?  Which is a good question, but Margaret also says that the Hunger Demon in Thomas knows.  So if Margaret meant that Justine was indeed dead, could this be the moment when Nemesis made it's entrance?  Also there is a reason for the Hunger Demon to go along, if it is connected to Outsiders.  Anyway, if I am right, Thomas did kill Justine after all in Blood Rites, and then her body was taken over by Nemesis, the Hunger playing along.  Nemesis needed years to get all the chess pieces in place, years to manipulate Thomas into striking when he did.  Nemesis needed Justine's body for that, needed to be Justine to manipulate Thomas into the events that led to Battle Ground. 

It's an interesting notion.

But before analyzing too deeply, I want to ask:  what -- not who, but what -- was Harry talking to?

I had been presuming a sort of pre-programmed simulacrum, a miniature "spirit of knowledge" along the lines of Bob (or Lash & Bonea (and likely the Archive)) that Margaret had constructed for Harry before her death; albeit a vastly-lesser one.

But for this thing to be tracking all sorts of extra info -- Thomas, and Thomas' girlfriend -- happening out in the world, it'd need to be considerably more robust, not just pre-programming.  Able to conduct reconnaissance, to learn, to adapt... not really "lesser," in fact quite robust.

The "robust" examples -- that we we know of for sure -- are all the work of a much-more-competent & powerful entity than a WC wizard with just a century or so of lived experience... particularly since we already know that her amazing & impressive "best skill" is with the Ways & with faeries.  For her to also have stunning (& centuries-beyond her justified skills) degree of experience constructing spirits-of-knowledge would seem to be unlikely.

Which leads me to the next option:  it really was his mom... her "ghost" or "spirit" or "soul" or etc.  And exactly how that could happen is entirely unexplained... unless she's explicitly working in Uriel's "Spook Service" with Captain Murphy, Carmichael, etc?

But I repeat:  before speculating on "what did Margaret mean by that," I'd be looking at "what even was that thing, presenting itself as Margaret??!?"
 

[Mira]

But I repeat:  before speculating on "what did Margaret mean by that," I'd be looking at "what even was that thing, presenting itself as Margaret??!?"
 

  We don't.  It could very well be that she said that Justine was gone, because in his mind at that moment Thomas believed she was gone.  As simple as that and the gift of insight was just theatrics.  However when she talks about her arrogance, regret about the burden she put [presumably star child, which Harry or Thomas had no clue of at that point] on Harry alone.  That's not something you'd expect to find in Thomas's mind, because he simply didn't know about it.  That fits with what Malcolm said, and what Lash tells Harry later in White Night.  Notice Thomas doesn't say anything about what he saw at his end of the soul gaze of what was in Harry's head, other when Harry says their mom said to tell Thomas she loved him.. Thomas merely says she said to tell Harry the same thing.

Which leads me to the next option:  it really was his mom... her "ghost" or "spirit" or "soul" or etc.  And exactly how that could happen is entirely unexplained... unless she's explicitly working in Uriel's "Spook Service" with Captain Murphy, Carmichael, etc?

Actually it is entirely possible that her and Malcolm both are working for Uriel.  Malcolm did tell Harry that he wasn'tallowed to come to him before he did, so someone is in charge of what his soul does at any rate, why not Margaret's soul as well? An no, it isn't explained, but normally, at least in all of the soul gazes Harry has had and talked about afterwards, he never actually held a conversation with what he saw, he just observed. 

Anyway, it is a tin hat theory, but it is one that could account for how Nemesis managed to get a hold of Justine.. Oh I might add Justine wasn't really the same after "near death" either...

[LordDresden2]

  We don't.  It could very well be that she said that Justine was gone, because in his mind at that moment Thomas believed she was gone.  As simple as that and the gift of insight was just theatrics. 

I lean toward this.  I don't think Harry was addressing Margaret's ghost (copy or real soul), I think he was talking to a Lash-style simulacrum, albeit a baby verion of one.  I think the only things the simulacrum knew was what Margaret encoded into it, plus data from the host mind, but I think it was present in both Thomas' and Harry's minds, so to speak, or copies of the program were present.  I think they linked up in the soulgaze and could share files.

(I suspect she learned how to do the simulacrum by studying the Denarians.)

So I think the simulacrum believed Justine was dead because Thomas and his demon both believed Justine was dead, and so the Thomas-copy of the simulacrum thought that, too.

But that's my hypothesis.  It could be something more, but I don't think we have any evidence for it.  We just don't have any against it either.

[Mira]

But that's my hypothesis.  It could be something more, but I don't think we have any evidence for it.  We just don't have any against it either.

 Which is kind of my point, however it is a possible opening for Nemesis.  Also and I don't know this for sure either, but wouldn't the Hunger know if it had fed until death?  It's been a long time since I read Blood Rites, but the soul gaze happens after Thomas nearly dies, he is in pretty good shape at that point when he tells Harry he is his brother, but no one has told him that Justine lived?  Not even Lara?  Apparently not, if in the soul gaze it reads that she is gone... But then again "gone" can mean Justine is gone, but her body survives..

[Regenbogen]

My mother nodded at Thomas."The girl he loved.  She is gone.  She was his strength.  It knows that."

Good find. This strengthens my theory that this was the point in time when Nemesis took over completely. Somewhere I have written, that I think, Thomas wouldn't have had the control to stop feeding on Justine when he was so injured. Nemesis stopped him. Because it was inside her before, probably since Grave Peril, when she was the Reds' prisoner, but once the last remnants of the real Justine were killed in Blood Rites, Justines Body became the main host. During her time of "recovery", Nemesis wasn't always "at home", because it was busy trying to corrupt the Leanansidhe and infecting Maeve and other shenanigans, I am sure.

In Proven Guilty, Lea is seen as a prisoner in the ice garden at Arctis Tor. But the ice is already melting. This is when Nemesis starts to control Justines body again, which can be seen during White Night,  when she leads Harry and Carlos to the Deeps.

My theory is, Nemesis can influence several people at the same time, but it can only inhabitate one at a time. So it was trapped in Lea, during her healing by Mab, thus could not be in Justine at the same time.
But there are traces of Nemesis left behind in each host, like a Fallen's shadow, I think. So the manipulation continues, even when Nemesis is not actively inside the person.

But Justine was different, she wasn't just a host any more after Blood Rites. Justine was gone, so Nemesis could not only be in her body as its host, but it could actually BE Justine.

[g33k]

... I think, Thomas wouldn't have had the control to stop feeding on Justine when he was so injured. Nemesis stopped him. Because it was inside her before, probably since Grave Peril, when she was the Reds' prisoner ...

This is a very, very interesting sequence.

It contradicts testimony in the book... but given that said testimony comes from Nemesis itself, we can presume it's a lie if there were any advantage at all to lying.

And it lines up with my own WAG that Rampires -- led, we  note, by the Lords of Outer Night -- had some connection with the Outer Gates and Outsiders.

Nemfecting Justine while they had control of her seems like a very Nemesis-long-play move.
 
* * *

OTOH, Nemesis' own testimony is highly plausible for another reason:  "when Justine got close to Lara"  is another likely infection-point, because Papa Raith had multiple bits of Outsider magic & WoJ is that he had collected a bunch of materials in an effort to become a power-player in the upcoming Starborn/Apocalypse event.

WAG here is that Mab has identified the Whampire Court as a previously-unknown Nemfection vector... so, she has pulled Harry's pin and tossed a Dresden-shaped grenade (Starborn Wizard Winterknight with twin penchants for investigation & mayhem) into Nemesis' bunker...

[Regenbogen]

OTOH, Nemesis' own testimony is highly plausible for another reason:  "when Justine got close to Lara"  is another likely infection-point

I think the words "close to Lara" are meant to make us think it means when Justine started to work for Lara.
But in my theory it can also mean "close to Lara" in location. Meaning either Justine got infected during her imprisonment in Grave Peril and because she was Thomas' girlfriend and Thomas during that time often met with Lara offscreen. So she often was in proximity to Lara.

Or Justine was even the first vector, the first nemfected person.
Iirc the question in Battle Ground was "since when have you been in Justine?"
What if Justine was Nemesis' plant all along. Everything planned, from the moment she met Thomas till the end in BG. Becoming Thomas' girlfriend could also be seen as "close to Lara".
I always thought it weird, that the Reds wanted her before. What interest  could they have in one weak human girl? They could have any other girl. Why Justine?
And yes, all of this already implies that in theory the Reds worked for the Outsiders.

All of this almost purely speculation, of course.
 
Edit: the Reds' interest could have been faked to push Thomas to act and safe her, thus making it more probable for her to become his girlfriend.

[Mira]

And it lines up with my own WAG that Rampires -- led, we  note, by the Lords of Outer Night -- had some connection with the Outer Gates and Outsiders.

Nemfecting Justine while they had control of her seems like a very Nemesis-long-play move.
 

Yes, and here are a couple of points on that, while we don't know for sure, but Outsiders or some power, maybe Nemesis appears to be protecting Lord Raith. That's why even Eb cannot kill him, Harry felt it in Blood Rites when he tried, but Margaret at least found a way to neutralize with her death curse.  Who set Thomas up with Justine? Lord Raith.  Lord Raith would be one of the few at that point in time who knew that Thomas and Harry were brothers.  He might have surmised that Harry was star born, because of Margaret, because he may have been hoping to conceive one with her.  Lord Raith then knew at some point down the line Harry would be a threat, long term chess tactics, set up Thomas with Neminfected Justine, Thomas and Harry get together, Justine manipulates Thomas and has a path to destroy Harry.

What if Justine was Nemesis' plant all along. Everything planned, from the moment she met Thomas till the end in BG. Becoming Thomas' girlfriend could also be seen as "close to Lara".
I always thought it weird, that the Reds wanted her before. What interest  could they have in one weak human girl? They could have any other girl. Why Justine?
And yes, all of this already implies that in theory the Reds worked for the Outsiders.

Agreed.

One more crazy thought just appeared in my sleep deprived head.. What if it wasn't his mother Harry was talking to in the soul gaze, but Nemesis itself?  Ergo the "insight" that she gifted Harry with, was really an attempt at infecting him..  I really don't think so, but it is a possible scenario for who was Harry really talking to in that soul gaze.  Crazy thoughts and theories aside, I still think it was Margaret, his mother.  We know she was a powerful wizard, and wasn't adverse to breaking the rules.  She also had a wizards foresight, yes, real thing remember Luccio telling Harry that his was awakening when he visited Demonreach for the first time? Since Margaret wasn't adverse to breaking the Rules of Magic, she may have come up with a way to imprint some of herself into the heads of both her sons.. Hey, Margaret came up with a way to neutralize Lord Raith, why couldn't she do that as well?   

[Avernite]

I think the words "close to Lara" are meant to make us think it means when Justine started to work for Lara.
But in my theory it can also mean "close to Lara" in location. Meaning either Justine got infected during her imprisonment in Grave Peril and because she was Thomas' girlfriend and Thomas during that time often met with Lara offscreen. So she often was in proximity to Lara.

Or Justine was even the first vector, the first nemfected person.
Iirc the question in Battle Ground was "since when have you been in Justine?"
What if Justine was Nemesis' plant all along. Everything planned, from the moment she met Thomas till the end in BG. Becoming Thomas' girlfriend could also be seen as "close to Lara".
I always thought it weird, that the Reds wanted her before. What interest  could they have in one weak human girl? They could have any other girl. Why Justine?
And yes, all of this already implies that in theory the Reds worked for the Outsiders.

All of this almost purely speculation, of course.
 
Edit: the Reds' interest could have been faked to push Thomas to act and safe her, thus making it more probable for her to become his girlfriend.

One concern I have with the 'pre-planned plant' is that Thomas was convinced that Justine had true-love protection. That seems the kind of 'one of a kind' feeling a White Court Vampire wouldn't be wrong about.

Of course that's also a flaw with 'immediately after the near-fatal feeding' for Nemfection, because the True Love protection must have kicked in at/after that feeding.

I can't exclude the possibility Nemesis can simulate it... but in all other Dresden Files situations Love is a rather big deal. To be able to simulate it feels wrong to me.

[g33k]

... One more crazy thought just appeared in my sleep deprived head.. What if it wasn't his mother Harry was talking to in the soul gaze, but Nemesis itself?  Ergo the "insight" that she gifted Harry with, was really an attempt at infecting him..  I really don't think so, but it is a possible scenario for who was Harry really talking to in that soul gaze ...

I presume -- very strongly -- that a Soulgaze is something (likely one of the very few elements) that Nemesis cannot wiggle around.  If a wizard Soulgaze's somebody Nemfected, they WILL see it.

AFAIK, however, this is unaddressed by WoJ.

[Mira]

One concern I have with the 'pre-planned plant' is that Thomas was convinced that Justine had true-love protection. That seems the kind of 'one of a kind' feeling a White Court Vampire wouldn't be wrong about.

Of course that's also a flaw with 'immediately after the near-fatal feeding' for Nemfection, because the True Love protection must have kicked in at/after that feeding.

I can't exclude the possibility Nemesis can simulate it... but in all other Dresden Files situations Love is a rather big deal. To be able to simulate it feels wrong to me.

It's a matter of timing isn't it?  Seems to me that the true love thing would have kicked in before not after the sacrifice. Why? Supposedly Justine already loved Thomas so much she was willing to die to save him.. Isn't that the very definition of true love? Then just touching her should have burned the hell out of him, in fact killed him..  Supposedly the love Thomas felt for Justine was so pure and true, that he was willing to sacrifice himself rather than feed until she died.. Again, sounds like true love to me and should have burned the hell out of him, even killed him to touch her.. Supposedly it's an automatic thing, so did Justine have a quickie with someone else so Thomas could feed upon her?  Or was Justine long gone at the time of the feeding?  Thomas was dying, supposedly pretty much out of it at the time of the feeding, he would just feed until he was aware it was Justine he was killing.. So yeah, a Neminfected Justine could have faked it.. Returning to another point of when the soul gaze happened, Thomas had recovered, both he and the Hunger should have known by then that Justine survived if she survived, but that wasn't what Harry saw.   After that?  Why would it be so hard for Nemesis to fake true love?  So much so that Thomas would believe it?  Nemesis is a real bad ass foe, both Winter and Summer Courts fear it among others, simulating a true love reaction most likely is a piece of cake for it.. Right up to the last moment on the boat going to Demonreach Justine/Nemesis had Harry fooled..

[Avernite]

Right up to the last moment on the boat going to Demonreach Justine/Nemesis had Harry fooled..

I disagree there; Harry felt something off, just wasn't sure what.

When it was about 'emotional reaction to sad news' it didn't trigger a total 'huh', sure...
But if it was towards Thomas about 'our literal worst-possible thing' I'd think even a 'huh that's weird, is it really THE thing'.

And of course Justine had plenty later interactions with parties on the Outsider team, to allow 'act of true love was real, nemfection was later'.

[Mira]

I disagree there; Harry felt something off, just wasn't sure what.

When it was about 'emotional reaction to sad news' it didn't trigger a total 'huh', sure...
But if it was towards Thomas about 'our literal worst-possible thing' I'd think even a 'huh that's weird, is it really THE thing'.

And of course Justine had plenty later interactions with parties on the Outsider team, to allow 'act of true love was real, nemfection was later'.

But that's the point right?  People react, "pregnant people," with hormones a blazing don't always react as expected.  Perfect cover, and unless you were looking for Nemesis, would you spot it?  No, easy to shrug off for the reasons just stated and Nemesis would be the last thing on Harry's mind at that moment.  So Harry didn't make the connection, even though shortly after he leaves her apartment building he is attacked by Corner Hounds..

You could say that Justine became Neminfected at some point right after Changes, when Justine decides to have Lesbian sex so the true love protection was broken and her and Thomas could act physically with each other like a normal couple without him getting a second degree burn every time... However one also has to ask, if they had true love since Blood Rites, and the fix was that simple, why didn't they do that earlier?  Unless earlier didn't suit Nemesis's timeline and back in the time of Blood Rites, Harry was just a wizard detective and the Red Court was still very much a force.. Remember since Storm Front Harry had been trying to figure out who or what was in the shadows pulling the strings, using others as cat's paws, he called them the Black Council, remember?  So if the Black Council is Nemesis, what a perfect way to penetrate the enemy than to use their lovely pawn, Justine in the great chess game.  Moving quietly around, unnoticed, until it was time to upset or try to upset the whole damn board.

[Snark Knight]

I had been presuming a sort of pre-programmed simulacrum, a miniature "spirit of knowledge" along the lines of Bob (or Lash & Bonea (and likely the Archive)) that Margaret had constructed for Harry before her death; albeit a vastly-lesser one.
But for this thing to be tracking all sorts of extra info -- Thomas, and Thomas' girlfriend -- happening out in the world, it'd need to be considerably more robust, not just pre-programming.  Able to conduct reconnaissance, to learn, to adapt... not really "lesser," in fact quite robust.

What if holo-Margaret was talking to Harry during the soulgaze because she placed it in Thomas, like a miniature version of the Fallen leaving a shadow?  The simulacrum's ability to learn would be limited to accessing whatever Thomas experiences.  She'd believe Justine was dead because Thomas believed it.  That would probably cut the difficulty factor considerably. And a simple construct would probably have pretty limited capacity to account for the host believing something but being wrong.

While Justine was near death is an excellent possibility for when she was Nemfected, though. Thomas thought she was already gone, Lord Raith would have had ample opportunity to let his allies get at her while she was convalescing.  It's not conclusive though, have been other Outsider collaborators in the White Court who could have got to her later.