Author Topic: I just had a funny idea (serious spoilers for BG, just in case)  (Read 3175 times)

Offline Dina

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We know there is chance of Murphy coming back, but I was thinking. What if Jim finds a way to have Susan's back instead?  Of course, the obvious way would be to bring Mirror Susan to Harry's prime universe, but I was thinking it would be better to find a way to resurrect the woman who gave her life for her child (and Harry). Of course, resurrection would normally be a no-no, but with so many supernatural entities around, who can say it is impossible?
Let me be clear, I am not such a fan of Susan, but it would be so good for Maggie Jr. and Harry to have her back. And the dynamics would be very interesting.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: I just had a funny idea (serious spoilers for BG, just in case)
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2024, 04:13:17 AM »
We know there is chance of Murphy coming back,

But whether she actually will or not, I don't know.

I predicted on the forums, years ago, back when JB was still insisting that he had no plans to either write Murphy out, kill her off, or power her up, that he would at some point in the not too distant future be forced to write Murphy out, kill her off, or power her up.

That was no particular prescience on my part, just a recognition that as the story advanced and changed and the stakes kept rising, Karrin wasn't keeping up.  Back in the early books, when Harry was basically a small-time Chanderlesque PI who happened to possess magic, she fit in perfectly.  In those stories all the usual character roles of a Chandler-style PI story were present.

Harry the hard-boiled PI (though he wasn't hard-boiled yet back then, one interesting thing about the Dresden Files is that we're getting to see the hard boiling process play out, rather than meet the protagonist after he's already case hardened).  He had the usual money problems, bad luck with relationships, etc.

Marcone was the local mob boss.  Karrin was the cop he interacted with most often, usually as an ally but sometimes as an opponent.  The 'scope' of the stories was mostly Chicago, local.  It was a variation on the classic Chandler formula.

But as time passed, Harry grew into a global level major player, with major influence.  The scope of the story reached world-wide levels many books ago.  The players now are national governments, militaries, ancient conspiracies, archangels and gods.

Marcone grew with the story, becoming a freeholding lord, a Denarian, etc.  Karrin just didn't.  By the time of Skin Game, when Harry recruits her as his gun moll for the upcoming operation, the problem had become acute.  Harry simply needed higher power help than Karrin could provide, I suspect that's part of the meta reason why JB brought Michael back temporarily.

So I wasn't a bit surprised by her death.  I knew a long time ago that JB was going to have to change his plans, he either had to sideline Karrin, power her up, or kill her off.  He might have done both the latter in one stroke, but I knew he wasn't going to be able to keep her as was, because the DF is no longer a Chandler-esque PI story.

What I'm getting at with all this is that while I can certainly imagine ways to bring Karrin back into the story, ways that could fit with the setting...I'm not 100% sure JB is going to do it.  If she comes back as a Valkyrie, she's not really quite Harry's Karrin anymore.  If she comes back as human Karrin, it's both another 'death is cheap' moment (and too much of that wrecks any story) and recreates the previous problems.

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but I was thinking. What if Jim finds a way to have Susan's back instead?  Of course, the obvious way would be to bring Mirror Susan to Harry's prime universe, but I was thinking it would be better to find a way to resurrect the woman who gave her life for her child (and Harry). Of course, resurrection would normally be a no-no, but with so many supernatural entities around, who can say it is impossible?
Let me be clear, I am not such a fan of Susan, but it would be so good for Maggie Jr. and Harry to have her back. And the dynamics would be very interesting.

But I so hope not.

I think I said once before that when I heard that there was going to be a 'parallel time' story, when I heard Bob tell Harry that Spiderman is real somewhere, I actually physically winced.  I've seen parallel time stories go sour so many times, and they create so many continuity and 'stakes' headaches, that I literally dread them.

I have seen good ones, but they're very much the exception.  The old original Star Trek episode Mirror Mirror, was a good one.  The Trek novel Dark Mirror, written by Diane Duane, was done as a nextgen sequel to that episode, and it was good, too.  But the stuff the actual DS9 and other Trek shows did with the mirror universe was ghastly.

The trouble with parallel time is that it removes stakes.  That is, if Character A dies, well...so what?  If you have the necessary magic/tech to reach parallel time lines, and there are an infinite number of such, then somewhere Character A2, A3, A4, etc. are still alive.  Your wife/husband died?  Well, somewhere Out There in alternity, he/she is still alive, single, and waiting for you.  Don't like how the last election turned out?  Don't like how the last war turned out?  If you can access alternity, somewhere there's a world that's exactly what you wish for.

Sweating over a hard decision?  Well, just think, you're going to choose every option, on some time line.  Get married/stay single?  You're gonna do both.  Quit your boring job and take a risk on your dream career, or play it safe?  You're gonna do both.  And so on.

The multiverse is already messing up the Marvel movies, in a big way.

I've learned to have a lot of faith in JB from experience.  Several times he's made writing choices that worried me, and turned out to be good.  So I'm not panicked...but the alternate-reality story is the one I'm looking forward to least, the one part of me still sort of dreads.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2024, 04:17:58 AM by LordDresden2 »

Offline Dina

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Re: I just had a funny idea (serious spoilers for BG, just in case)
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2024, 11:16:38 AM »
I agree in pretty much all what you said, except that when you said "If she comes back as a Valkyrie, she's not really quite Harry's Karrin anymore" I said "so what?". I see no problem with Karin changing.
I miss the Chandleresque era a lot. I mean, yes, the badass Winter Knight is fun to read, but I miss the old feeling. And it is true Karin was becoming a problem. There was also the age factor.
About Susan, I said having the Mirror Susan would be the easier way but I would like it better if JB finds a way to resurrect Prime Susan. So basically agree with you again. I hope Jim did not bring anyone from the Mirror Universe.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline Mira

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Re: I just had a funny idea (serious spoilers for BG, just in case)
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2024, 01:02:33 PM »
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I predicted on the forums, years ago, back when JB was still insisting that he had no plans to either write Murphy out, kill her off, or power her up, that he would at some point in the not too distant future be forced to write Murphy out, kill her off, or power her up.

That was no particular prescience on my part, just a recognition that as the story advanced and changed and the stakes kept rising, Karrin wasn't keeping up.  Back in the early books, when Harry was basically a small-time Chanderlesque PI who happened to possess magic, she fit in perfectly.  In those stories all the usual character roles of a Chandler-style PI story were present.

I agree with all of this, and while yeah, it is a fantasy, as Murphy aged turning her into some kind of Wonder Woman/ Sage became more unrealistic.  As I have said before, in my opinion when Jim removed her from the police force, it was the beginning and the end of the character.
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I have seen good ones, but they're very much the exception.  The old original Star Trek episode Mirror Mirror, was a good one.  The Trek novel Dark Mirror, written by Diane Duane, was done as a nextgen sequel to that episode, and it was good, too.  But the stuff the actual DS9 and other Trek shows did with the mirror universe was ghastly.

Agreed, and Dark Mirror by Diane Duane is one of my favorite Trek novels, I think the problem is one can go to the same well one too many times.  When something isn't broke you don't fix it, and reworking it too many times will break it!

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I've learned to have a lot of faith in JB from experience.  Several times he's made writing choices that worried me, and turned out to be good.  So I'm not panicked...but the alternate-reality story is the one I'm looking forward to least, the one part of me still sort of dreads.

Same here, the only thing I can think of is Chandler disappearing either will be the excuse for or be someone Harry rescues in the other dimension and he will become Harry's new bud..  In my opinion this was telegraphed by Chandler sending signals to Harry when he meets the Wardens on the way back from the Raith Estate in Peace Talks to be on his guard when confronted by Carlos and company.  Then in the battle with Drakul, of the Wardens who weren't killed outright or saved for conversion to vamps, he was the only one that was sent "somewhere else," i.e. another dimension.  Last but not least, Harry's falling out with Carlos, if I am right, saving Chandler will either put Harry in good stead with Carlos again, or all of the above will now make Chandler suspect, and he will leave the Wardens and join Harry as his right hand man... Or in the spirit of the tin foil hat, Harry will convince Titania to make Chandler her Summer Knight so they can really team up in the coming BAT.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2024, 10:16:22 AM by Mira »

Offline g33k

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Re: I just had a funny idea (serious spoilers for BG, just in case)
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2024, 05:51:45 PM »
... as the story advanced and changed and the stakes kept rising, Karrin wasn't keeping up.  Back in the early books, when Harry was basically a small-time Chanderlesque PI who happened to possess magic, she fit in perfectly ...

Yeah.
To be clear:  no merely "vanilla" human is capable of "keeping up" with the essentially superhuman world Harry now inhabits & operates within.  Hell, Harry has a whole pack of werewolves who are now too weak for Harry's comfort.

... a 'parallel time' story ... Star Trek episode Mirror Mirror, was a good one ...

I've learned to have a lot of faith in JB from experience.  Several times he's made writing choices that worried me, and turned out to be good.  So I'm not panicked...but the alternate-reality story is the one I'm looking forward to least, the one part of me still sort of dreads.

IIRC, Jim has titled his Mirror,Mirror book in explicit homage to the ST:TOS episode, & seems to be leaning-in further; I think it's a primary influence.  The other big influence, I think, is the old Jimmy Stewart vehicle, It's a Wonderful Life; there's the explicitly-identical conceit of "get to see how things would have played out differently, with this one little change..."

Offline Dina

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Re: I just had a funny idea (serious spoilers for BG, just in case)
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2024, 11:27:59 PM »

IIRC, Jim has titled his Mirror,Mirror book in explicit homage to the ST:TOS episode, & seems to be leaning-in further; I think it's a primary influence.  The other big influence, I think, is the old Jimmy Stewart vehicle, It's a Wonderful Life; there's the explicitly-identical conceit of "get to see how things would have played out differently, with this one little change..."

Yes, I think that is right, those were his influences.

Or in the spirit of the tin foil hat, Harry will convince Titania to make him her Summer Knight so they can really team up in the coming BAT.

Mira, I loved this idea!
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline Mira

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Re: I just had a funny idea (serious spoilers for BG, just in case)
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2024, 10:44:21 AM »
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IIRC, Jim has titled his Mirror,Mirror book in explicit homage to the ST:TOS episode, & seems to be leaning-in further; I think it's a primary influence.  The other big influence, I think, is the old Jimmy Stewart vehicle, It's a Wonderful Life; there's the explicitly-identical conceit of "get to see how things would have played out differently, with this one little change..."

I can see that, wonder if Michael will become "Clarence the Angel," and earn his wings finally buy guiding Harry though how things would have been if he had never been born, or maybe in this case the kind of man that he is?  However while that is nice, for a whole novel I believe it has to move the series along and honestly might be done just as well in a short story or novelette.  There has to be more to it, I think it will be the rescue of Chandler.

Offline g33k

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Re: I just had a funny idea (serious spoilers for BG, just in case)
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2024, 07:31:07 PM »
I can see that, wonder if Michael will become "Clarence the Angel," and earn his wings finally buy guiding Harry though how things would have been if he had never been born, or maybe in this case the kind of man that he is?  However while that is nice, for a whole novel I believe it has to move the series along and honestly might be done just as well in a short story or novelette.  There has to be more to it, I think it will be the rescue of Chandler.

No matter how good a man he is, I don't think Michel is in any position to offer multi-dimensional alternate-reality info to Harry.   ;)

Unless you're suggesting an afterlife-Michael?


I'm kinda-sorta expecting Mirror,Mirror to have a redeemed Marcone:  with Mirror!Harry no longer Fighting the Good Fight, Marcone will increasingly have needed to stand up for those few principles (e.g. "no kids") he has, alienating most of the other Bad Guys and forcing Marcone deeper into the Good Guy camp.  Our Harry!Prime will give Marcone one of the Swords (probably Amoracchius), and further complicate Harry's feelings towards Marcone!Prime:  he's actually really close to being a viable KotC!

Both Mirror!Murphy & Mirror!Susan will be alive & well.  Susan will be in bed with Mirror!Harry (literally & figuratively:  both as his lover/gf, but also actively Bad-Girl'ing to Mirror!Harry's Bad-Boy), & Murphy will be profoundly distrustful of Harry, because her Harry, Mirror!Harry, is a very-black BlackHat ...

Both his lost loves "restored" -- but both unavailable (neither to be "loves" nor to process / get closure) -- is gonna mess with Harry's mind even worse than Jim usually does.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2024, 08:07:41 PM by g33k »

Offline Mira

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Re: I just had a funny idea (serious spoilers for BG, just in case)
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2024, 08:21:35 PM »
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No matter how good a man he is, I don't think Michel is in any position to offer multi-dimensional alternate-reality info to Harry.   ;)

Unless you're suggesting an afterlife-Michael?

No, I was just trying to think off the top of my head who'd be the alternative to Clarence the angel who hadn't earned his wings yet in the original "It's a Wonderful Life."  I guess bizarrely it could be Lasciel, I guess since she started out as an angel and is a fallen angel it could be her that would play that role, or maybe Nic, but as you point out the same problems as with Michael.

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I'm kinda-sorta expecting Mirror,Mirror to have a redeemed Marcone:  with Mirror!Harry no longer Fighting the Good Fight, Marcone will increasingly have needed to stand up for those few principles (e.g. "no kids") he has, alienating most of the other Bad Guys and forcing Marcone deeper into the Good Guy camp.  Our Harry!Prime will give Marcone one of the Swords (probably Amoracchius), and further complicate Harry's feelings towards Marcone!Prime:  he's actually really close to being a viable KotC!

Both Mirror!Murphy & Mirror!Susan will be alive & well.  Susan will be in bed with Mirror!Harry (literally & figuratively:  both as his lover/gf, but also actively Bad-Girl'ing to Mirror!Harry's Bad-Boy), & Murphy will be profoundly distrustful of Harry, because her Harry, Mirror!Harry, is a very-black BlackHat ...

Both his lost loves "restored" -- but both unavailable (neither to be "loves" nor to process / get closure) -- is gonna mess with Harry's mind even worse than Jim usually does.

Which isn't the point of the original "Mirror Mirror."  I think if you maker Marcone the good guy and Harry the bad, then Harry would have to convince him to kill his bad self.  Also our Harry following the example of Kirk in the original story would have to see the same good in the man in both dimensions when he urged Spock to assassinate the bad Kirk.  As cool as all that is, the problem still is how does this further the series along?  There has to be a point to it. 

Offline g33k

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Re: I just had a funny idea (serious spoilers for BG, just in case)
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2024, 09:39:29 PM »
... and while yeah, it is a fantasy, as Murphy aged turning her into some kind of Wonder Woman/ Sage became more unrealistic ...

Except not:

The exceptionality of martial arts is very trope-y in fantasy, and fits well into the Dredenverse.
Aikido, in particular, is overtly & explicitly spiritual in origin & much of its practice (though not every dojo follows that path).

Offline g33k

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Re: I just had a funny idea (serious spoilers for BG, just in case)
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2024, 09:49:37 PM »
...  As cool as all that is, the problem still is how does this further the series along?  There has to be a point to it.
 
I think there's actually a lot of potential for that.
It'll really expand Harry's mind, his perspective.  He'll be able to understand more of his own world, bring his learning home with him.

It may very-well expose some Bad Guys who've gone mask-off / out of cover, in the darker Mirrorverse; allowing Harry to address their evilness when he gets back to our Prime universe.  The "Black Council" may be functionally unmasked, and/or key members.  Etc...

If my "good Marcone" proves even vaguely correct, it may further set up a redemption-arc for Marcone!Prime, and/or open Harry's eyes to other possible KotC's.

& so on & so forth...

Offline Dina

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Re: I just had a funny idea (serious spoilers for BG, just in case)
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2024, 11:42:55 PM »
I am not sure how MirrorMirror is going to be. Is our Harry going to Mirror Universe or is Mirror Harry coming to our universe?
I can see our Harry teaming with MirrorMarcone and MirrorMurphy to stop (perhaps killing) MirrorHarry. I wonder if we will see a soulgaze or a death curse by MirrorHarry. It will be interesting. In any case, our Harry will be devastated. He always felt he was a monster, it was his greatest fear and the reason to plan his own killing when he became the WK. So having his fear confirmed, that he is pretty much a bad day away to become bad Harry (as Joker would say) will be terrible. The only hope I see is Mirror Harry redeeming himself, probably saving little Maggie. Because we all know loving a child is the purest, all healing thing.
I am wondering about Mirror Thomas and what will be his reality.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline g33k

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Re: I just had a funny idea (serious spoilers for BG, just in case)
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2024, 03:41:01 AM »
I am not sure how MirrorMirror is going to be ...

None of us are... so we WAG our tonguesfingers!   ;)


... Is our Harry going to Mirror Universe or is Mirror Harry coming to our universe?  ...

Well if we take the ST:TOS episode as the model, it'll be Mirror!Harry coming to Prime!Universe and Prime!Harry going to Mirror!Universe:  that was Kirk &co's story.

In fact, it was much of the Bridge crew swapping... so it could be Harry+allies swapping, with a whole TeamEvil(tm) arriving in our Prime!Universe (& vice versa, of course)!
« Last Edit: August 12, 2024, 03:43:17 AM by g33k »

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: I just had a funny idea (serious spoilers for BG, just in case)
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2024, 04:47:44 AM »

I agree with all of this, and while yeah, it is a fantasy, as Murphy aged turning her into some kind of Wonder Woman/ Sage became more unrealistic.

Except not:

The exceptionality of martial arts is very trope-y in fantasy, and fits well into the Dredenverse.

Except yes.

True, training, skill, and will can overcome limits of size and strength and age...to a point.  To a very limited point.

The DV is urban fantasy, yes, but JB has made it relatively gritty urban fantasy in many ways.  Yeah, there's magic, Fae, various kinds of vampire, etc., but at the same time, combat is deadly, nasty things happen, and there are realistic limits to a lot of things.  Karrin's unarmed combat abilities were already straining things even back several books ago.

We had a discussion on the old forum about the problem of Murphy's height once, I remember.  Believability of her combat abilities was already straining because of her stated height.  Size and strength absolutely do matter in a fight, contrary to movies and TV, and Karrin's ability at aikido and related skills was already pushing the WSOD of some readers.

High martial arts skill or not, in the vast majority of cases, if a woman Karrin's size fights a man Hendrick's size and power unarmed, she is going to lose.  Badly.  Possibly cripplingly/lethally.  Training and skill and experience can offset that...some.  But only to a limited degree.

(Is it possible for a woman Karrin's size to overcome a man with Hendrick's size and strength in hand to hand?  Yes.  In principle.  It's very improbable in practice.  It could happen occasionally if the woman is very skilled and the guy is careless or untrained. But it's more plausible for the high skill tiny girl to cripple/kill the big guy than to pin him without hurting him.  But Karrin did that sort of capture regularly.)

That's against mortal foes.  It's much worse against superbeings.

Karrin's age was becoming an issue for believability, too.  Karrin was almost certainly some years older than Harry, and Harry is somewhere around 50.  Granted she kept herself in superb shape, but it's still an issue.  55 or 56 is not 35, much less 20.

(In Storm Front, Harry was mid-20s.  Karrin was already an experienced cop at that time, and had to be old enough to have been married and divorced twice.  Granted her first marriage was very young, but she still pretty much has to be older than Harry.)

So there again was a reason I knew JB was going to have to power her up, kill her off, or put her on a bus.  Time was catching up to her.  Ignoring the effects of age, on top of already winking at the problem of her height, would really have strained things.

(I suspect, if JB had the whole series to do over, Karrin would be at least average female height, maybe closer to Gard's height.  That would have helped a lot in the believability metrics for her combat skills.)

Yeah.
To be clear:  no merely "vanilla" human is capable of "keeping up" with the essentially superhuman world Harry now inhabits & operates within.   

That's not 100% true, there are ways for a baseline human to play in that league believably...but all of them kind of go against Karrin's personality and background.

For ex, imagine a Karrin who trained her marksmanship up to the high end, and studied the vulnerabilities of various races of monsters and vampires.  Then she takes them out from a distance with a rifle and carefully prepared and selected ammo, as an assassin-style operative with a support group.

The Chicago guardians were sort of such a group, but to keep up in Harry's world, Karrin would have to be a lot more ruthless than she has been, and prepared to cross a lot of line she never was before.

Imagine a Karrin who always carries a knife, and who instead of going for the pin, her first reaction to hostile contact is to slide that knife into a vital organ, going for the kill.  Imagine a Karrin who became very good at ambush kills.  A Karrin who gathered intel on the various players, and used it to blackmail one power player to help her against another.

She probably had the brains to do that.  She had the will.  She never lacked for courage, if anything she had too much of that last.  But would such a Karrin still be Harry's Karrin?  She'd be more like Kincaid's dream girl, wouldn't she?  Or a candidate for Marcone's lieutenant?

But I can't see any way she could remain basically a cop (disgraced or not) and a major player in Harry's life at the same time.



« Last Edit: August 12, 2024, 05:03:12 AM by LordDresden2 »

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: I just had a funny idea (serious spoilers for BG, just in case)
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2024, 05:05:22 AM »
No matter how good a man he is, I don't think Michel is in any position to offer multi-dimensional alternate-reality info to Harry.   ;)

Unless you're suggesting an afterlife-Michael?


I'm kinda-sorta expecting Mirror,Mirror to have a redeemed Marcone:  with Mirror!Harry no longer Fighting the Good Fight, Marcone will increasingly have needed to stand up for those few principles (e.g. "no kids") he has, alienating most of the other Bad Guys and forcing Marcone deeper into the Good Guy camp.  Our Harry!Prime will give Marcone one of the Swords (probably Amoracchius), and further complicate Harry's feelings towards Marcone!Prime:  he's actually really close to being a viable KotC!

I wouldn't be 100% shocked if our time line's Marcone someday ends up as a Knight.  The more so because he has a Coin, oddly enough.