Author Topic: We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay  (Read 7950 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay
« Reply #75 on: August 03, 2024, 10:36:46 AM »
Also, I think Nic & Anduriel are entirely capable of making a "safety" play & leaving Harry with an impression they'd like him to have, on the outside chance he survives.

They know there are KotC's in the field against them, so they know their "best-laid plans" may still not be good enough.

Not to mention at this point Harry has no clue that unless very special precautions are taken Andriel can listen in to anything and everything he says to anyone.  So in this case in particular, Nic has full advantage over Harry.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay
« Reply #76 on: August 05, 2024, 04:24:17 AM »
Also, I think Nic & Anduriel are entirely capable of making a "safety" play & leaving Harry with an impression they'd like him to have, on the outside chance he survives.

They know there are KotC's in the field against them, so they know their "best-laid plans" may still not be good enough.

Yeah, but that also fails the Ockham's Razor test.  Yeah, that could be what's going on, but it's not the simplest explanation that fits the data.  The whole conversation could be Nicodemus playing 7 dimensional chess.  We know Nicodemus does sometimes play 7-d chess, so to speak.

But the simpler explanation is that he was prepared to offer Harry a Coin, because a corrupted Harry could be useful, but he's also smart enough to know Harry would be a handful to control, so he makes the offer but is prepared to just kill him otherwise.  That fits the scene, fits the data, and requires fewer assumptions.

Likewise, we can build all sorts of scenarios where Margaret really wasn't so bad, and we can make them fit the available data...but they're never the simplest fit.  The simplest fit for the available data is that Margaret started out as a misguided, short-sighted idealist, made friends and enemies along the way, and at some point became much, much worse, and then found redemption and salvation near the end of her life, and was then murdered by Lord Raith.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay
« Reply #77 on: August 05, 2024, 04:38:26 AM »
On the subject of Margaret, it occured to me today to wonder about something:  did she know Kemmler?

She could have.  The Council iced Kemmler in 1961.  We don't know exactly when Margaret died, but it has to have been the early-to-mid 1970s.  I'd say 1975-76 at the very latest, probably a little earlier.  Harry is probably in the neighborhood of 50 these days, but IDR if it's ever been said precisely how old Harry is.

So it's possible that Margaret knew him.  Heck, she might have fought alongside the Council against Kemmler, for all we know.  Or possibly (though not I think very probably) she might have been on Kemmler's side against the Council.

Certainly, she was in the Game at the time when the Council took Kemmler down.

Offline Mira

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Re: We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay
« Reply #78 on: August 05, 2024, 01:05:02 PM »
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Likewise, we can build all sorts of scenarios where Margaret really wasn't so bad, and we can make them fit the available data...but they're never the simplest fit.  The simplest fit for the available data is that Margaret started out as a misguided, short-sighted idealist, made friends and enemies along the way, and at some point became much, much worse, and then found redemption and salvation near the end of her life, and was then murdered by Lord Raith.

 I think Margaret was that bad, but she was complicated and most people are.  I think her motives may have started out good enough, i.e. that the Council needed reforming, but between her rebellion against Eb and other not so nice people exploiting her when she still was quite young, she did do all the bad things she was accused of.  Love is also a big deal in the series, and the love of a good man made her want to change, and she did.

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Yeah, but that also fails the Ockham's Razor test.  Yeah, that could be what's going on, but it's not the simplest explanation that fits the data.  The whole conversation could be Nicodemus playing 7 dimensional chess.  We know Nicodemus does sometimes play 7-d chess, so to speak.

Except because of Andriel, Nic thought he had a handle on Harry's thinking, because of Andriel, it could very well  be Ockham's Razor.

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On the subject of Margaret, it occured to me today to wonder about something:  did she know Kemmler?

Wouldn't be a shock if she did. 
« Last Edit: August 05, 2024, 04:08:57 PM by Mira »

Offline g33k

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Re: We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay
« Reply #79 on: August 05, 2024, 09:39:52 PM »
...
But the simpler explanation is that he was prepared to offer Harry a Coin, because a corrupted Harry could be useful, but he's also smart enough to know Harry would be a handful to control, so he makes the offer but is prepared to just kill him otherwise.  That fits the scene, fits the data, and requires fewer assumptions ...

I am going to assert that it's virtually always incorrect to presume  "Anduriel is only pursuing the simplest and most-straightforward plan, here"  in any scene where Nic/Anduriel is onscreen (they are like Mab (and Odin) in this regard).

They don't play 7-d chess, they live and breathe it 24/7/365 and have been doing so for centuries.

In fact, Occam's Razor is the least-valid approach to these sorts of characters.
 

Offline g33k

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Re: We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay
« Reply #80 on: August 05, 2024, 10:00:51 PM »
On the subject of Margaret, it occured to me today to wonder about something:  did she know Kemmler?

She could have.  The Council iced Kemmler in 1961.  We don't know exactly when Margaret died, but it has to have been the early-to-mid 1970s.  I'd say 1975-76 at the very latest, probably a little earlier.  Harry is probably in the neighborhood of 50 these days, but IDR if it's ever been said precisely how old Harry is.

So it's possible that Margaret knew him.  Heck, she might have fought alongside the Council against Kemmler, for all we know.  Or possibly (though not I think very probably) she might have been on Kemmler's side against the Council.

Certainly, she was in the Game at the time when the Council took Kemmler down.

You're right, it's very possible they knew one another (I think inevitable that they at least knew of one another) .  I'm betting there were some sort of meetings between them:  it's exactly the sort of thing I think Jim would use to torment Harry!


The timing certainly works (Kemmler died about 10-20 years before Margaret, but they had over a century where they were both running 'round the world getting into trouble).  We just don't know if there were ever any same-place-same-time actual face-to-face encounters.  Detail-oriented fans created a semi-speculative timeframe (I think likely more-fully-researched than anything Jim himself ever did).  It's good enough that Jim "adopted" it, and it's now hosted at his official website:
  https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline

Offline Mira

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Re: We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay
« Reply #81 on: August 06, 2024, 01:36:02 PM »
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I am going to assert that it's virtually always incorrect to presume  "Anduriel is only pursuing the simplest and most-straightforward plan, here"  in any scene where Nic/Anduriel is onscreen (they are like Mab (and Odin) in this regard).

There are a couple of unknowns, 1) Has Harry always been on Nic's radar? 2) Can Anduriel monitor every human at the same time?
I don't think it is Anduriel who is calling the shots as far as a plan goes.  His value, and it is a HUGE advantage is gathering total intelligence about everyone.. I don't think Mab or even Odin can do this, there are things they don't know even now about Harry or how he thinks.  Nic has that intelligence, that's why it was so easy for him to sucker Murphy into a fight and get a Holy Sword broken. 

Offline g33k

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Re: We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay
« Reply #82 on: August 07, 2024, 06:15:13 PM »
There are a couple of unknowns, 1) Has Harry always been on Nic's radar? 2) Can Anduriel monitor every human at the same time?
I don't think it is Anduriel who is calling the shots as far as a plan goes.  His value, and it is a HUGE advantage is gathering total intelligence about everyone.. I don't think Mab or even Odin can do this, there are things they don't know even now about Harry or how he thinks.  Nic has that intelligence, that's why it was so easy for him to sucker Murphy into a fight and get a Holy Sword broken.

1) I (very strongly) suspect so!  Nic seems to have known Margaret -- possibly well -- and I suspect he particularly would have taken extra pains to "look in on her" when she fled from Papa Raith.  Meeting Malcom, getting pregnant... these would have been known to him.  Her baby being on-track for being Starborn, and the Salic-Law offspring of an unusually-powerful White Council witch, seems likely to be of passing interest to Anduriel.  Whether Anduriel informed Nic... unknown.

2) I'm pretty sure Anduriel can multitrack much more info than humans can, but I'm guessing the limit is there, and likely more on the order of dozens-hundreds than the billions of "all of humanity" at once.

3) Anduriel has found a partner in Nic who already had a closely-aligned agenda, and millennia to subtly influence & adjust Nic's outlook to be even closer.  Anduriel "called his shots" over millenia, with that subtle influence; and now mostly just sits back and "lives off the interest of those prior investments."  He still steps in on Nic, occasionally.  We saw it in the fight in Hades' vault, when Michael & Harry tried to get Nic to give up the coin:  I don't think Nic was allowed to hear them.
 Nic boasts to Harry that he's a "full partner" but that's honestly delusional of him:  he has only the "independence" that Anduriel permits him (but that's a fair amount because Nic began close and only got closer as the years passed).

4) I think Anduriel & Mab & Odin each have different sorts of info where they have advantage "gathering intel."  I doubt Anduriel's "listen from the shadows" ability is widely-known, and I think it very meaningful (and not at all accidental) that Harry was told.  Fundamentally, though, the Fallen seem unable to understand humanity's "better side" -- recall that Harry baffled Lasciel's Shadow more than once, and that was "the Temptress'" best effort to create a mortal-influencing simulacrum (presumably the "Master of  Shadows" is less-skilled).  Faerie'dom has its own huge intel-gathering power (witness Harry using Toot & the Guard), and Mab thus surely knows stuff that Anduriel doesn't.  I'm unclear what Odin's "special abilities" are, in this regard, but he surely has tricks of his own, advantages of his own.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2024, 06:39:59 PM by g33k »

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay
« Reply #83 on: August 08, 2024, 05:12:46 AM »
I am going to assert that it's virtually always incorrect to presume  "Anduriel is only pursuing the simplest and most-straightforward plan, here"  in any scene where Nic/Anduriel is onscreen (they are like Mab (and Odin) in this regard).

They don't play 7-d chess, they live and breathe it 24/7/365 and have been doing so for centuries.

In fact, Occam's Razor is the least-valid approach to these sorts of characters.

Not really.

I actually disagree about their 'living and breathing' this stuff.  Yes, they're good at it.  Yes, they're often playing a deeper game, and usually a deeper one yet within it when they do.  But they still have limits. Nicodemus is still a human being, an incredibly long-lived and very smart one, granted, but it's a mistake to see him as all-foreseeing, all-calculating, nigh-infallible.  Sometimes he's just doing what he appears to be doing.

We've actually seen in-story that Nicodemus can be, and has been, outplayed by Harry, Mab and John Marcone.  Now granted both the latter are masters at this themselves, but it's an example of Nicodemus' fallibility.  Nicodemus is very good at this, but he's not necessarily the best there is.  Though I think he thinks he's better at it than he really is.

(I think Margaret had some of the same thing going on.)

Remember what Uriel (a true 17-dimensional chessmaster) was doing during the Hades adventure.  Even as Mab and Marcone played Nicodemus, Uriel was using that to destroy Nicodemus' illusion of omniscience and Ultimate Badassness with his own minions, in hopes of freeing them and eventually saving them.  Seeing Nicodemus run away, totally outplayed, wiped out the perception they had of him as being a mega-infallible badass...and left them potentially open to better things.

And even the master-level players are not always playing at master level.  I think it's a mistake, for example, to ascribe that sort of ability to the Black Council, or Nemesis.  They too are to some degree playing it by ear, I think.

You're right, it's very possible they knew one another (I think inevitable that they at least knew of one another) .  I'm betting there were some sort of meetings between them: it's exactly the sort of thing I think Jim would use to torment Harry!

Good point.

We just don't know enough about Margaret's motivations, back in the day, to assess what her attitude toward Kemmler would probably have been.  Even if she was corrupt at the time herself, that doesn't guarantee they'd have gotten along, as an old line from a Disney show goes, sometimes 'the last thing a villain needs around is another villain'.


3) Anduriel has found a partner in Nic who already had a closely-aligned agenda, and millennia to subtly influence & adjust Nic's outlook to be even closer.  Anduriel "called his shots" over millenia, with that subtle influence; and now mostly just sits back and "lives off the interest of those prior investments."  He still steps in on Nic, occasionally.  We saw it in the fight in Hades' vault, when Michael & Harry tried to get Nic to give up the coin:  I don't think Nic was allowed to hear them.


I might need to reread that scene, but I don't think Anduriel was blocking Nicodemus' ears, so to speak.  I'm not sure he'd have been allowed to do that, under the circumstances.  IIRC, my impression was that Harry and Michael almost reached Nicodemus for a moment, he seemed to waver, and then Anduriel whispered something to him and fed his pride and ego and got him back on the evil track again.

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Nic boasts to Harry that he's a "full partner" but that's honestly delusional of him:  he has only the "independence" that Anduriel permits him (but that's a fair amount because Nic began close and only got closer as the years passed).

Absolutely.  No mortal is ever really the one in control with those Coins in play.  They'll let a mortal have his or her head if it's useful, but the final say is always in demonic hands.  Deep down, Nicodemus probably knows that, even if he can't admit it to himself.  The only way a mortal gets the last word with a Coin is by refusing it, or surrendering it.


Offline Mira

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Re: We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay
« Reply #84 on: August 08, 2024, 11:54:24 AM »
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We've actually seen in-story that Nicodemus can be, and has been, outplayed by Harry, Mab and John Marcone.  Now granted both the latter are masters at this themselves, but it's an example of Nicodemus' fallibility.  Nicodemus is very good at this, but he's not necessarily the best there is.  Though I think he thinks he's better at it than he really is.

They did, but only because they now understand Nic's advantage.  That's why the planning to out con Nic's con in Mac's bar worked so well, blocking Andriel removed Nic's advantage.  Mab and company picked one of the few places where Andriel couldn't listen to their plans to plant Gray.  Nic is clever, but it is easy to be clever when you know before hand what the other side is planning.  Andriel is a fallen angel, so at one point he did have perhaps not all the power of an archangel, but he was still powerful.  When he chose the wrong side and fell and became the prisoner of the coin, he still retains a lot of power, but he is only as good as his host in many ways.  In other words, Nic has always been power hungry and is convinced that Andriel's cause is right, and has bought into the idea that they are an equal partnership.  In my opinion one main reason why it didn't work out between Harry and Lasciel is that accidental soul gaze Harry had back in Death Masks when he first met the Denarians.  From that he understood where any "partnership" was heading no matter how many promises Lasciel made, still it was a close thing because of the temptations of all the advantages given a host of a coin.  Harry in the end didn't want to end up like the image he saw, thus with the help of his starborn unbelievably strong will he resisted and rejected Lasciel's coin.  Nic doesn't have that kind of will, I also think he is more full of fear than ego and pride, that's why he didn't give in to Harry and Michael in what seemed like a weak moment.  He still needs time as things around him turn south and he is no longer on top before he makes his decision.. We have yet to see what influence the Grail will have on him in the end.  I trust Michael on that, and he thinks school is still out on that one.

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I might need to reread that scene, but I don't think Anduriel was blocking Nicodemus' ears, so to speak.  I'm not sure he'd have been allowed to do that, under the circumstances.  IIRC, my impression was that Harry and Michael almost reached Nicodemus for a moment, he seemed to waver, and then Anduriel whispered something to him and fed his pride and ego and got him back on the evil track again.

I don't think Anduriel was blocking Nic either at that point, I don't think it was so much pride and ego that got to Nic, but fear.
Nic has been willing to sacrifice even his only beloved daughter for the cause, perhaps even believes that his daughter will rise again.  My point is, Nic isn't disillusioned yet by why he is doing what he is doing, he still believes in it.  Also he has no clue as to what would happen to him if he gave up his coin, he has been on the earth for a couple of thousand years maybe because of the coin.   Nic has seen what has happened to those who did give up their coin and became mortal again.  I mean the man is a couple of thousand years old, would he age rapidly like Cassius and die after a few years?  Or just turn to dust?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2024, 08:20:14 PM by Mira »

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay
« Reply #85 on: August 14, 2024, 05:43:40 AM »
I wonder...with a nickname like Margaret le Fay, JB has said it was at least partly because she was so tight with the Fae, but it's also an obvious call-back to Arthurian legend, along with so many other names in the DF.

I wonder if Margaret ever possessed Morgan's infamous dagger, that has caused so much trouble in Harry's world?

Offline g33k

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Re: We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay
« Reply #86 on: August 15, 2024, 09:52:01 PM »
... Nicodemus is still a human being ...
Nic is, yes.
Anduriel emphatically is not.

And we don't have a good sense of what the Fallen's limitations are -- and are not -- when they're working with a host.

A Fallen Shadow can achieve anything any human can, surpassing all the limitations of "average," but not actually exceeding human capability -- the Shadow is still working with the stuff of mortality.

A full-fledged KotBD can go beyond those limits...  they still do have limits, but we don't know what those are:  we're speculating there, beyond what canon firmly tells us.

It seems unlikely to me that the stuff we know about is all of it... I presume they have secrets they hold in reserve!
 
« Last Edit: August 15, 2024, 11:44:41 PM by g33k »

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay
« Reply #87 on: August 16, 2024, 06:24:19 AM »
Nic is, yes.
Anduriel emphatically is not.

True, but the powers of the Fallen in the Coins is limited, that's part of the point of the Coins.  They have to work through human hosts, and that reduces their power substantially, and so yes, it matters that Nicodemus is human.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay
« Reply #88 on: August 16, 2024, 06:28:36 AM »
Another question that occurs to me about Margaret:  how much did Malcolm know?

A lot of the same considerations that apply to Harry in relationships with baseline mortals would also apply to Margaret.  She was only about a century old, in terms of her 'personal time', though we suspect she was closer to a century and a half in calendar terms.

Which means that (assuming she survived her numerous enemies), she could expect to live another 2 or 3 centuries when she married Malcolm.  Now in practice she had made so many enemies that her prospects for living even a few more years were decidedly dicey, but still.

I wonder how much Malcolm knew about the supernatural world, how much she told him.  I can't imagine that she hid her magical nature from him.  I hope she told Malcolm about her enemies, so he would know what he was getting into by marrying her.  (It's only fair to warn a prospective spouse about baggage, and Margaret McCoy was Miss Baggage 1970.)

It would be fascinating to know the details of how that played out.

Offline Mira

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Re: We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay
« Reply #89 on: August 16, 2024, 01:08:29 PM »
Another question that occurs to me about Margaret:  how much did Malcolm know?

A lot of the same considerations that apply to Harry in relationships with baseline mortals would also apply to Margaret.  She was only about a century old, in terms of her 'personal time', though we suspect she was closer to a century and a half in calendar terms.

Which means that (assuming she survived her numerous enemies), she could expect to live another 2 or 3 centuries when she married Malcolm.  Now in practice she had made so many enemies that her prospects for living even a few more years were decidedly dicey, but still.

I wonder how much Malcolm knew about the supernatural world, how much she told him.  I can't imagine that she hid her magical nature from him.  I hope she told Malcolm about her enemies, so he would know what he was getting into by marrying her.  (It's only fair to warn a prospective spouse about baggage, and Margaret McCoy was Miss Baggage 1970.)

It would be fascinating to know the details of how that played out.

  I doubt that Malcolm knew everything, however I don't think he was totally ignorant about Margaret's world either.  I get the sense from Harry's soul gaze with Thomas when he talks with his mother, and his dream/vision of Malcolm when they talk, that the two of them did agree to conceive Harry for a reason.  However we still don't know what Malcolm was told so he would go along with it. Then again, Margaret could have told Malcolm everything, but how much would he be able to understand or believe?  You would think that Margaret would have run into the same problems that Harry did trying to explain his world to Susan and even Murphy.