We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay

[LordDresden2]

Would he have?  I'm not so sure, at the end of Turn Coat, Thomas fully admits in so many words after the Hunger Demon took over he enjoyed feeding on and killing those girls.  Just a personal opinion, but I wish Jim had developed this Thomas more for Harry to deal with, I think Jim dropped the ball there.

page 413 Turn Coat;

 I was really disappointed, because that could have set up some really interesting conflict, and nothing, if anything was done with this.  In Changes, Thomas was pretty back to who he was before the Skinwalker got a hold of him, and so was his relationship with Harry.   Possible we might see it yet, now that Thomas is on the island reliving his crimes.  I hope so.

I think the key word is just that.  What Shagnasty revealed to Thomas was that his 'friendly neighborhood vampire' approach was an illusion, that inside, he was still what he was, and that he had been that all along.  His relationship with Harry, and his attitude, have returned to more or less what they were before, but now the presence of that demon has been revealed, it's been revealed that Thomas is a danger to mortals around him, that the demonic part of him likes being a predator, it's always there.

Thomas had been telling himself, before, that maybe he could change, stop being what he is, Shagnasty took that illusion away.  Now he continues to try to be decent, to be safe...but the menace is never far away.

JB had to go back to at least a similar relationship to what they had before, if Thomas had kept on as he was in the immediate aftermath of the Shagnasty affair, well...that story only goes one place and it gets there fairly quickly.  If they had gone down that road, Harry, or someone, would have had to terminate Thomas, or else he'd have become a full-on enemy and the brother-relationship would just be gone.

But the danger that Thomas represents, the nastiness that is the White Court with the facade torn aside, now it's out there.  I think part of what JB was doing, in Turn Coat, was 'deconstructing' the then-popular idea of the Romantic Tragic Vampire, both with Thomas and his victims, and with the interaction of Lara and Madeline.

[Mira]

I think the key word is just that.  What Shagnasty revealed to Thomas was that his 'friendly neighborhood vampire' approach was an illusion, that inside, he was still what he was, and that he had been that all along.  His relationship with Harry, and his attitude, have returned to more or less what they were before, but now the presence of that demon has been revealed, it's been revealed that Thomas is a danger to mortals around him, that the demonic part of him likes being a predator, it's always there.

Thomas had been telling himself, before, that maybe he could change, stop being what he is, Shagnasty took that illusion away.  Now he continues to try to be decent, to be safe...but the menace is never far away.

JB had to go back to at least a similar relationship to what they had before, if Thomas had kept on as he was in the immediate aftermath of the Shagnasty affair, well...that story only goes one place and it gets there fairly quickly.  If they had gone down that road, Harry, or someone, would have had to terminate Thomas, or else he'd have become a full-on enemy and the brother-relationship would just be gone.

But the danger that Thomas represents, the nastiness that is the White Court with the facade torn aside, now it's out there.  I think part of what JB was doing, in Turn Coat, was 'deconstructing' the then-popular idea of the Romantic Tragic Vampire, both with Thomas and his victims, and with the interaction of Lara and Madeline.

Maybe, but Harry hasn't come to grips with it either.  Now it may come to a head in Twelve Months, because unlike her little brother, Lara has never fought what she was.  Actually she seem pleased with the results of Shaggy's "treatment" of Thomas, in her eyes he was now acting normal.  If the marriage between her and Harry doesn't happen, this will be one reason behind it.

I disagree, I think the story could have gone on for some time, more complex certainly, but it didn't mean that Thomas would die or have to be killed. 

Here is a further WAG, that this little problem will come to a head sooner than later.  Harry will come to realize that Eb was right about vampires, they cannot change who they are.  However, then what?  Harry still loves his brother.

[vincentric]

I believe that WC vampires can change who they are and bring their demons under control otherwise the conversation that Harry had with Uriel in GS makes no sense.

“It’s hard for the half-born,” Uriel observed in a quiet, neutral tone. “What did you call him?” I asked. Belligerently. Which probably wasn’t really bright, but Thomas was my brother. I didn’t like the thought of anyone judging him. “The scions of mortals and immortals,” Uriel said, unperturbed. “Halflings, half-bloods, half-born. The mortal road is difficult enough without adding a share of our burdens to it as well.” I grunted. “That skinwalker got hold of him a while back. It broke something in him.” “The naagloshii feel a need to prove that every creature they meet is as flawed and prone to darkness as they themselves proved to be,” Uriel said. “It…gives them some measure of false peace, I think, to lie to themselves like that.” “You sound like you feel sorry for them,” I said, my voice hard. “I feel sorry for all the pain they have, and more so for all that they inflict on others. Your brother offers ample explanation for my feelings.” “What that thing did to Thomas. How is that different from what the Fallen did to me?” “He didn’t die as a result,” Uriel said bluntly. “He still has choice.” He added, in a softer voice, “What the naagloshii did to him was not your fault.”

Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 560). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

From this, I get that it's harder for the WC, but if they still have choice, then they can be redeemed in some fashion. Where there's life, there's hope, even for a WC vampire.

[Mira]

I believe that WC vampires can change who they are and bring their demons under control otherwise the conversation that Harry had with Uriel in GS makes no sense.

“It’s hard for the half-born,” Uriel observed in a quiet, neutral tone. “What did you call him?” I asked. Belligerently. Which probably wasn’t really bright, but Thomas was my brother. I didn’t like the thought of anyone judging him. “The scions of mortals and immortals,” Uriel said, unperturbed. “Halflings, half-bloods, half-born. The mortal road is difficult enough without adding a share of our burdens to it as well.” I grunted. “That skinwalker got hold of him a while back. It broke something in him.” “The naagloshii feel a need to prove that every creature they meet is as flawed and prone to darkness as they themselves proved to be,” Uriel said. “It…gives them some measure of false peace, I think, to lie to themselves like that.” “You sound like you feel sorry for them,” I said, my voice hard. “I feel sorry for all the pain they have, and more so for all that they inflict on others. Your brother offers ample explanation for my feelings.” “What that thing did to Thomas. How is that different from what the Fallen did to me?” “He didn’t die as a result,” Uriel said bluntly. “He still has choice.” He added, in a softer voice, “What the naagloshii did to him was not your fault.”

Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 560). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

From this, I get that it's harder for the WC, but if they still have choice, then they can be redeemed in some fashion. Where there's life, there's hope, even for a WC vampire.

Harry is still trying to make an excuse for Thomas and kind of taking the blame for it.  While Uriel isn't unsympathetic of the plight of Thomas, he doesn't come off the fact that Thomas does have choices.
That is the point, at the end of Turn Coat, seemingly Thomas has made his choice.  He feels no guilt about killing those young women, he says thinking about it, "just makes him hard." No remorse.  Uriel also tells Harry that he has no responsibility, it's the choice of Thomas.  Now it's possible that his love for Justine prompted Thomas to chose yet again, but what happens when he finds out that she duped him? 

[g33k]

Whampires are still, in part, human.
They still (mostly) have their free will (until/unless their Hunger Demon gets into "starvation" mode).

... That is the point, at the end of Turn Coat, seemingly Thomas has made his choice.  He feels no guilt about killing those young women, he says thinking about it, "just makes him hard." No remorse ...

You're falling into the Naagloshii's mental trap, just like Thomas did.

It took away Thomas' choice; he had had a stable life, without murdering people; that was his choice, and it was working.  It kidnapped him, held him until the Hunger overcame his choice; it's much like forcing drugs onto someone, that strips their choice away, too.

It conditioned him to think that this was "who he was" -- but it's not.  It's an inescapable part of him, but it doesn't define all of him, or even most of him... unless he chooses to let it (or if somebody takes his choice away).

In that scene, Thomas was still mentally/emotionally trapped by the Naagloshi's manipulations.  Physically  free, but (much like with Stockholm Syndrome) not mentally.  As with most successful lies, it includes a nugget of truth:  there really is a "monster" inside Thomas.  But it doesn't follow that Thomas is necessarily & inescapably therefore "a monster."

[vincentric]

Harry is still trying to make an excuse for Thomas and kind of taking the blame for it.  While Uriel isn't unsympathetic of the plight of Thomas, he doesn't come off the fact that Thomas does have choices.
That is the point, at the end of Turn Coat, seemingly Thomas has made his choice.  He feels no guilt about killing those young women, he says thinking about it, "just makes him hard." No remorse.  Uriel also tells Harry that he has no responsibility, it's the choice of Thomas.  Now it's possible that his love for Justine prompted Thomas to chose yet again, but what happens when he finds out that she duped him?

You're not paying attention to the timeline here. At the end of Turn Coat, Thomas was just days removed from the Nagloshii's torture. That was him at his lowest point.

The passage I posted is from Ghost Story, so Thomas has had several years to heal and regain his balance. He was much closer to being his reformed self in Changes and in GS he was dealing with Harry's death along with the constant Hunger.

But he wasn't going out and being a predator, he was denying his Hunger and suffering for it. He's still trying to do the right thing but is subject to a relapse just like any other recovering addict. He's making the right choices but the wrong one's whisper strongly to him.

[LordDresden2]

You're not paying attention to the timeline here. At the end of Turn Coat, Thomas was just days removed from the Nagloshii's torture. That was him at his lowest point.

The passage I posted is from Ghost Story, so Thomas has had several years to heal and regain his balance. He was much closer to being his reformed self in Changes and in GS he was dealing with Harry's death along with the constant Hunger.

But he wasn't going out and being a predator, he was denying his Hunger and suffering for it. He's still trying to do the right thing but is subject to a relapse just like any other recovering addict. He's making the right choices but the wrong one's whisper strongly to him.

That's true.  It's not that Thomas doesn't feel guilt at the end of Turn Coat, he does.  If he didn't, he'd be at peace with it, relaxed.  Instead he's obviously bitter and trying to escape his own conscience.

As Uriel notes, Thomas has a choice.  But Thomas is not alone in his head.  The demon is in there too, and it both is and is not a separate thing.  As long as Thomas is awake, he has free will and can potentially choose not to act in accordance with his vampiric impulses.  But when Thomas is suppressed, when the demon is the only guiding mind (I'm actually not sure how intelligent the demon is, it seems almost like an animal in some ways), then Thomas' free will isn't relevant because Thomas is not Thomas at that point.  Thomas is asleep, or unconscious, or whatever we want to call it.

It's like the loup-garou.  MacFinn isn't guilty for the murders the monster commits, but the danger is still very real.  MacFinn has free will, but the loup-garou suppresses MacFinn, so his free will isn't in play when the monster is loose.

What happened to those girls that Shagnasty fed to Thomas is not Thomas' responsibility...mostly.  There is an element to it like the loup-garou, where the human side has an obligation to plan for situations to prevent the monster from being able to murder. 

But there are two perspectives to it.  There's the abstract moral responsibility, the distinction between the human in the WV and the demon.  And then there's the practical perspective of the potential victims.

That's what Eb is getting at, what Bob was trying to warn Harry about back in the day.  From the POV of view of a human, any WV is a bomb waiting to go off, in much the same way as the loup-garou lurked within MacFinn.  In fact, it's worse in way.  The loup-garou only manifested when a certain trigger condition was right, and it was predictable.    The full moon comes on a regular schedule, and preparations can be made.  The White Vampire demon can get loose at any time the WV is Hungry enough, or otherwise weakened.

(I suspect that one nasty move a warlock could try using mind magic would be to weaken the human mind enough for the demon to come to the fore at a bad moment.)

From the mortal perspective, it hardly matters if the monster attacking and devouring them is Thomas or Thomas' demon.  Their life and their sanity are in danger either way, and where Thomas goes, so goes the demon.  It's always there, always present, always waiting to get loose.

Which in turn makes associating with White Vampires, being friends with them, dating one or marrying one or just hanging out with one, risky.  Eb and Bob have both tried to warn Harry about this over the years.  He's in denial about it somewhat.  Remember his reaction to watching Lara drain Madeline while tearing her apart physically.  It's really easy to forget that White Vampires are monsters, when you're used to their civilized side.

Thomas regained enough of his balance, after some time passed, to regain his normal relationship with Harry and to try and behave decently again, and he probably works harder than ever to keep his demon on a leash.  But notice that he quit trying to live a normal human life, too.  He feeds more regularly now, probably out of fear of getting too Hungry and it getting loose again.  He lives with the White Court again, he's no longer trying to pretend to himself that he's not what he is, at least to that extent.

Is that good?  Or bad?  Or both?  I'm honestly not sure.  You could make an argument either way on a reasonable basis.

I mentioned above that it's mostly not Thomas' responsibility that those girls are dead.  The intent lay with Shagnasty, Thomas was the target, the girls were the collateral damage.  But if Thomas wants to be a 'good person', he does have a moral responsibility to recognize the danger he himself represents to other people, just as a loup-garou host (at least one who knows what he is) does.  He has a duty to take what steps he can to make sure the demon never gets into control again.  If he doesn't at least make a solid effort in that direction, then he does share some responsibility for what the demon does if it gets loose.

If I discover that I am under the loup-garou curse, and I don't take any precautions and I'm careless about the moon phase and so forth, then yeah, I'm at fault if the monster kills someone.  Not as much at fault as I would be if I shot them with a pistol, but in that scenario I would not be innocent.  A WV who wants to be 'good' has the same challenge.

[Mira]

If I discover that I am under the loup-garou curse, and I don't take any precautions and I'm careless about the moon phase and so forth, then yeah, I'm at fault if the monster kills someone.  Not as much at fault as I would be if I shot them with a pistol, but in that scenario I would not be innocent.  A WV who wants to be 'good' has the same challenge.

MacFinn did make a choice though, the only one he had short of suicide, he contained the Loop the only other way he could with that circle.  Others sabotaged his intent, and people died, you could argue that it was MacFinn's choice because he chose to remain in the populated world. 

At the end of the day, Thomas did commit murder, you can argue about his motives, but he was willing to kill and it wasn't the Hunger Demon driving him to do it.

[g33k]

... At the end of the day, Thomas did commit murder, you can argue about his motives, but he was willing to kill and it wasn't the Hunger Demon driving him to do it.

Cite, please?

In the quote by Thomas, upthread, he specifically said "... I didn't want to kill those girls..."
So he was, in fact, driven by his Hunger in those instances.

[g33k]

MacFinn did make a choice though, the only one he had short of suicide, he contained the Loop the only other way he could with that circle.  Others sabotaged his intent, and people died, you could argue that it was MacFinn's choice because he chose to remain in the populated world ...

I'm a bit puzzled, honestly, about MacFinn.

He had his magic circle (likely, I suspect, made to hire by a prior MacFinn).
But it's physically fragile, pretty easily broken by mundane means (as happened).

I wonder that he didn't have better physical barriers as backup.  With modern tech, and MacFinn wealth, it's certainly possible...

"Early Episode" problem, I expect (but this is decidedly off-topic, and if folks want to pursue "The MacFinn Anomly" I suggest a new thread).

And in fact the whole "Thomas' culpability & motivation" topic is well&truly drifted!

= = =

Let's get back to the OP's ask -- Maggie Sr.

My new sub-question:  was she ever enthralled to Papa Raith?

If not, how the hell not?  Per WoJ, she was having "lots of awesome vampire sex" which seems to make an enthrallment a pretty foregone conclusion!  Had she figured out some magical "solution" that Raith (who was (at the time) the strongest Whampire in the world, & at the height of his prowess!) somehow couldn't bypass??!?

But then if (as frankly seems nigh-inevitable) she was enthralled... how did she break free?  She didn't meet & fall in love with Malcolm until later!  And letting one of your thralls run free is a real "n00b error" that I cannot see from Raith (at that point (q.v. "strongest Whampire in the world" and "at the height of his prowess") in his life).  I actually do have an idea, here:  it was Lea.  We know that Maggie was already "LaFey" and with an extensive suite of Fae info/contacts (presumably including Lea).  And Lea's specialty was "inspiring mortals... to their eventual doom" per WoJ; it's "how she made her bones" in Winter & got to be the powerhouse we see in the books.  Presumably Lea had the power to "inspire" Maggie to break free (I'm sure Lea's power beats Papa Raith's).

[Mira]

If not, how the hell not?  Per WoJ, she was having "lots of awesome vampire sex" which seems to make an enthrallment a pretty foregone conclusion!  Had she figured out some magical "solution" that Raith (who was (at the time) the strongest Whampire in the world, & at the height of his prowess!) somehow couldn't bypass??!?

 My theory was she was still pushing for a star born, or perhaps Mab was pushing her in that direction.  I seriously doubt that she was enthralled by him.  She may have had just enough arrogance to think she could handle him, also she may have fallen into another trap that women often fall into, she thought he'd treat her differently.

But then if (as frankly seems nigh-inevitable) she was enthralled... how did she break free?  She didn't meet & fall in love with Malcolm until later!  And letting one of your thralls run free is a real "n00b error" that I cannot see from Raith (at that point (q.v. "strongest Whampire in the world" and "at the height of his prowess") in his life).  I actually do have an idea, here:  it was Lea.  We know that Maggie was already "LaFey" and with an extensive suite of Fae info/contacts (presumably including Lea).  And Lea's specialty was "inspiring mortals... to their eventual doom" per WoJ; it's "how she made her bones" in Winter & got to be the powerhouse we see in the books.  Presumably Lea had the power to "inspire" Maggie to break free (I'm sure Lea's power beats Papa Raith's).

As I said, I doubt that she was enthralled,  she may have simply tired of Raith and his antics.  Also once she fell in love with Malcolm she may have felt protected by true love.  She could very well have been, but that was physical contact, but couldn't save her from an entrophy spell. 

[g33k]

... I seriously doubt that she was enthralled by him ...

To be clear, I mean specifically the Whamp-mojo kind of "enthrallment," not just the normal "honeymoon phase" hot-new-romance "they're enthralled with their new lover" kind.

Unless Papa Raith took pains not to enthrall her, the things we have seen tend to suggest that Maggie would inevitably have become enthralled... And we have little-to-no evidence tht Raith would have been motivated not to.

[Mira]

To be clear, I mean specifically the Whamp-mojo kind of "enthrallment," not just the normal "honeymoon phase" hot-new-romance "they're enthralled with their new lover" kind.

Unless Papa Raith took pains not to enthrall her, the things we have seen tend to suggest that Maggie would inevitably have become enthralled... And we have little-to-no evidence tht Raith would have been motivated not to.

 Except I don't remember where it says anywhere that White Court vamps can enthrall anyone. 

[g33k]

Except I don't remember where it says anywhere that White Court vamps can enthrall anyone.

It's how the White Court gets full control of somebody.  The amazing sex can be addictively-good -- and as with other addictions, almost impossible to break (particularly with a sapient addiction, like a whampire!!!); but if they want to, the whampires can go even further than that.

We saw it in Turn Coat:  Vince Graber (the PI) was hired by a mortal lawyer, Evelyn Derek; she in turn was enthralled by a Whampire -- likely Madeline Raith.

[LordDresden2]

At the end of the day, Thomas did commit murder, you can argue about his motives, but he was willing to kill and it wasn't the Hunger Demon driving him to do it.

Yes, it was the Hunger demon doing it.  Shagnasty starved him to the point that the demon took over, then fed the girls to it while Thomas more or less wasn't there anymore.  Then Shagnasty would let the Hunger feed enough for Thomas to regain himself, realize what had happened, then repeat the process...over and over.

My theory was she was still pushing for a star born, or perhaps Mab was pushing her in that direction.  I seriously doubt that she was enthralled by him.  She may have had just enough arrogance to think she could handle him, also she may have fallen into another trap that women often fall into, she thought he'd treat her differently

As I said, I doubt that she was enthralled,  she may have simply tired of Raith and his antics. 

Since she was partaking of supersex on an apparently ongoing basis, it's hard to imagine that she wasn't addicted.

Almost every account we've heard speaks of Margaret 'escaping' from the White Court.  However it started (and I have no doubt Margaret's self-confessed arrogance led her into it), by the time it ended she was not in control.  What we don't know are the details.  Was she trapped purely by addiction?  Or were there other restraints in play?

I have no doubt LR is arrogant enough to assume that his whammy is too strong for a woman to escape.  But at the same time, Margaret was a valuable possession, it would have been in the interests of others to capture her, so I imagine there were guards or some safety check in place.

But we have no details.

It's how the White Court gets full control of somebody.  The amazing sex can be addictively-good -- and as with other addictions, almost impossible to break (particularly with a sapient addiction, like a whampire!!!); but if they want to, the whampires can go even further than that.

We saw it in Turn Coat:  Vince Graber (the PI) was hired by a mortal lawyer, Evelyn Derek; she in turn was enthralled by a Whampire -- likely Madeline Raith.

Yeah, most of the time it's just straight-up addiction.  You can call addiction a form of enthrallment, but Evelyn Derek is beyond that.  OTOH, we don't know if the WVs can do that level of mind manipulation to just anyone, either.  Messing with Derek's mind is one thing, a White Council level Witch is another.

But yeah, it's almost impossible to imagine that Margaret could regularly get busy with Lord Raith (one of the most powerful WVs) and not be, in effect, a junkie before long.

JB has told us very little about the details of Margaret's escape...and that's probably intentional, because the details would probably tell us a lot about the overall Big Picture that Harry is trapped within.