We gotta talk about Margaret LeFay

[Zelchar]

First time poster here, so I have some catching up to do in the fan speculation stuff here. Harry's mom is composed of about 90% hearsay and rumors. Let's add some more by speculating wildly here.

Who is LeFay's mom? I'd be disappointed if it was some yet unnamed vanilla human. My money is on the Leanansidhe. Who can we add to the suspect list?

LeFay was also about a century old before she died. Do Harry and Thomas have any older siblings?

Now a hypothesis: LeFay met Malcolm after hiring him for Thomas's birthday on Valentines day. Nine months later, Harry was born on Halloween. Plausible?

What other head cannon have you been filling Margaret Gwendolyn McCoy LeFay's backstory with?

[apgrey]

  I think there is a WOJ that Margaret Le Fay's mother was mortal.

APG

[Zelchar]

That tracks. Harry’s already leaning very close to being the specialest special one because he was born special as it is, with more details about the storborn situation coming to light.

Most of what we think we know about LeFay is from Ebenezer's bias, and name drops from the spooky side of town. I'm hyped fo fining out more about her.

For now, I'll have to content myself with rampant speculation, loose conjecture, and inductive reasoning.

So here I go... Lea might have met Ebenezer while glammed as a human. After the birth of their daughter,  Ebenezer may have had an unfortunately vehement reaction to the reveal of Lea's Fay nature, like a Blackstaff might. Young Margaret might have had a predictably rebellious reaction upon learning all this, and started wondering if her dad was right about all of the bad guys being bad guys. Thus the unsavory associations

[g33k]

First time poster here, so I have some catching up to do in the fan speculation stuff here. Harry's mom is composed of about 90% hearsay and rumors. Let's add some more by speculating wildly here.

Who is LeFay's mom? I'd be disappointed if it was some yet unnamed vanilla human...

Sorry, I'm afraid you're disappointed:

Do you have it planned out who Harry’s grandmother is? @6:05
Yes… Well she’s not alive any more.

Was she significant?
Well, she was a mortal.  That was about it.

Editor’s note:  There’s a 2011 WoJ Where Jim says if he remembers right, she died around 1810

^{-- https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-harrys-family/}

We can fanfic otherwise, but I think this is a pretty solidly established "fact" of the Dresdenverse  -- straight from the Butcher's mouth.

[Mira]

Sorry, I'm afraid you're disappointed:^{-- https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-harrys-family/}

We can fanfic otherwise, but I think this is a pretty solidly established "fact" of the Dresdenverse  -- straight from the Butcher's mouth.

Except the date of 1810 doesn't exactly track with Margaret's age when Harry was born, does it?  That would put her close to or over 200 when she died, I had the impression that she was closer to 100 to 150 in age.  I think pushing 200 is a bit past child baring age for even a wizard, but I could be mistaken. What I base that on is the age of Luccio when her old body was replaced in Death Masks. and I seem to remember her telling Harry that at that age she no longer had a lot of sexual desire.. I know that doesn't mean she still couldn't have children, but the two usually track together.

[vincentric]

Except the date of 1810 doesn't exactly track with Margaret's age when Harry was born, does it?  That would put her close to or over 200 when she died, I had the impression that she was closer to 100 to 150 in age.  I think pushing 200 is a bit past child baring age for even a wizard, but I could be mistaken. What I base that on is the age of Luccio when her old body was replaced in Death Masks. and I seem to remember her telling Harry that at that age she no longer had a lot of sexual desire.. I know that doesn't mean she still couldn't have children, but the two usually track together.

Margaret spent a considerable amount of her time in the NeverNever, much more than the average wizard. That could easily account for her extended youthfulness.

[Lord Kinbote]

Zelchar, thanks for opening this topic.

My WAG but a considered one - the Leanansidhe is a mantle, just like Mab, Titania, the Winter and Summer Ladies, Kringle, etc.   Otherwise, that would make Lea – the most powerful in the Winter Court after Mab - the only high level Sidhe that isn’t a mantle.   

And just like those with mantles, the Leananside was mortal once. 

And the mortal who has the Leanansidhe mantle is an ancestor of Harry.  I think it likely Harry’s grandmother or maybe his great grandmother.  (I thought maybe Margaret at one point, and while I don’t rule her completely out, I don’t think the math works even though at times Lea calls Harry “Son.”)  This would solve a number of unknowns and curiosities surrounding Lea but it was Lea’s participation in Mexico against the Red Court that pretty much seals it for me.  Mab allowed or directed Lea to go - and to indulge herself - even though Mab had earlier openly questioned why she would risk losing her Knight in a matter in which Mab had no interest and, also, would have resulted in hostilities between the Winter Court and the Red Court unless Harry wholly eliminated the Red Court.  Why?  Because the Red Court’s planned curse to kill Harry and Eb would have killed the mortal wearing the Lea mask.  Also, note that in the aftermath of Red Court’s elimination when Eb asks to speak to Harry alone, Eb says “Family business” and Lea smirked at Eb.  Maybe that was acknowledgement that Lea knew of the family relationship between Eb and Harry, but I think that’s what Butcher wants us to think.  I think it has deeper meaning than that (and Eb doesn’t know a relative is wearing the Lea mantle).

To those who want to cite WOJ to refute this, I consider Jim to be an unreliable narrator when it comes to things that could reveal major plot points in his planned, yet-to-be-published books.  He can’t give away critical pieces of the game with so much left so he understandably obfuscates.  And lest anyone forget, Butcher is a huge Star Wars nerd and by extension, so is Harry.  When Butcher says Harry’s grandmother is dead, I just think of Obi-Wan telling Luke that Vader killed Luke’s father.  From a 'certain point of view,' Harry’s grandmother (or maybe great grandmother, even Margaret herself) wearing the Lea mantle is just as dead as Anakin was wearing the Vader mask.

[Mira]

And just like those with mantles, the Leananside was mortal once. 

Where does it say that?  It is my understanding that Lea was always a Fae.

[Lord Kinbote]

Where does it say that?  It is my understanding that Lea was always a Fae.

Canon doesn't, thus WAG.

At the same time, I don't think that canon - and by that, I mean clearly stated by a 'cannot lie' Fae in straightforward text - has her as mantle-less.  I'm happy to be shown wrong if I've missed that.  If the Leanansidhe isn't a mantle, that would make Lea sui generis among the powerful Fae who all wear one or more mantles.  I don't think canon has explained Lea's uniqueness or at least hasn't yet.  Butcher is fairly logical and consistent with his story and world structures, and I don't think 'Lea is Mab's BFF' or 'Lea's been around a long time' is the answer.  To me, Lea being a mantle fits given what we know or have been led to believe about the Fae.

Heck, I even considered the idea that like with Odin and Kringle, Lea wasn't a different Fae but was just Mab wearing the Leanansidhe mantle at times.  But I don't think the canon supports that nearly as well as Lea being a separate former mortal wearing a Lea mantle.  But even so, I don't think Odin/Kringle is the only multi-mantled Fae there is.  Really, no reason for Butcher to do that unless he's scheming a future reveal.  We just haven't been shown any other . . . yet.

[clickeral]

Sorry, I'm afraid you're disappointed:^{-- https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-harrys-family/}

We can fanfic otherwise, but I think this is a pretty solidly established "fact" of the Dresdenverse  -- straight from the Butcher's mouth.

Did he specifically say it was Harrys Maternal grandmother? ie Ebs wife? or could be have been referencing Malcolms mother?

[Zelchar]

I wouldn't put it past Jim to bury the lead like that.

That begs the question about Malcolm's parents. Could Malcolm be an un-manifested scion?

[LordDresden2]

Margaret spent a considerable amount of her time in the NeverNever, much more than the average wizard. That could easily account for her extended youthfulness.

JB has more or less said as much.  What I gather, from various words of Jim and the implications of the story, was that Margaret was about a century old when she had Harry, in terms of her personal experience of time, that is, she had lived for a century.  But that century was spread out over a longer period of time because of Faerie time distortion (remember Rip van Winkle, or the stories of people who spend a day or two in Faerie and return to discover that everyone they knew has died of old age).

So measured by the calendar, Margaret might have been close to 160+ when she had Harry, but she had probably only lived a century or so of it.

But that's a conclusion I put together from various statements and implications and it could be off.

[LordDresden2]

I wouldn't put it past Jim to bury the lead like that.

That begs the question about Malcolm's parents. Could Malcolm be an un-manifested scion?

In theory he could.  But I sure hope not.  Making Malcolm supernatural messes up his characterization and role in the backstory, IMHO.

[Mira]

In theory he could.  But I sure hope not.  Making Malcolm supernatural messes up his characterization and role in the backstory, IMHO.

Agreed, the push about Malcolm all through the series was he was an ordinary vanilla human with "a heart of gold" as they used to say about extraordinary good and decent people.  That's the ingredient that sets star born Harry apart from the other star borns we've met, he inherited his father's "good heart" or nature.  That theme is repeated again and again all through the series, it is significant.

[Mira]

At the same time, I don't think that canon - and by that, I mean clearly stated by a 'cannot lie' Fae in straightforward text - has her as mantle-less.  I'm happy to be shown wrong if I've missed that.  If the Leanansidhe isn't a mantle, that would make Lea sui generis among the powerful Fae who all wear one or more mantles.  I don't think canon has explained Lea's uniqueness or at least hasn't yet.  Butcher is fairly logical and consistent with his story and world structures, and I don't think 'Lea is Mab's BFF' or 'Lea's been around a long time' is the answer.  To me, Lea being a mantle fits given what we know or have been led to believe about the Fae.

I doubt that Lea has a mantle.  She is high up in the Winter Court and is powerful, but it's because she is a powerful Fae, not that she has a mantle.  I need to go back and reread parts of Summer Knight when the Courts begin to war with one another, but I seem to remember other Fae "generals" being mentioned, powerful, but not with mantels.  Maybe the rule is, and I don't know it for a fact, but the Ladies,Queens, and Mothers have to begin as mortals, it's the mantle that changes them over time to the immortal powers that they are.  Knights are a bit different, their mantels make them powerful but they remain mortal.  Harry maybe an exception, but so far we haven't heard different.