Warden Survival Rate and Current Strength?

[Con]

There was the Brute Squad at Archangel. Red Court War and the counter attack in Dead Beat saw almost 200 wardens dead let's assume 200 wardens dead throughout the war atleast. Carlos, Yoshimo, Chandler, Wild Bill represented the elite of what was left to be given the tasks of guarding Senior Council at the Peace Talks 3 of the 4 killed or missing in action.

La Fortier and Cristos have about a third of the white council in their faction. 500 appeared at Morgans trial. Assuming some didn't come or couldn't fit that puts White Council numbers at 1500 to 2000 range.

That's about 10 percent of wizards were wardens.

What are the Warden numbers at now? less than 50?

[g33k]

...
What are the Warden numbers at now? less than 50?

I don't think we know, neither by canon mention nor by WoJ from events.

The WC was certainly recruiting/training them up thru the final Chichen Itza battle, & I preume the training didn't stop instantly; as the Fomor and other "new" threats emerged, the WC might even have decided to keep their wartime training levels going.

But... we just don't know.

... that puts White Council numbers at 1500 to 2000 range.

That's about 10 percent of wizards were wardens.

Once again:  I don't think we know, for sure.  I recall no WoJ nor reliable statement in the stories.

I more or less agree with you... I think 2000 is a likely-ish number.
[  I'm unclear whether or not Jim borrowed from RPG's for this -- or even explicitly done it to pay homage -- but the founding/backstory (& presumed size) of his "White Council" is remarkably similar to the "Order of Hermes" (in the Ars Magica RPG)... even if just subconsciously, Jim may have borrowed there... or just used the same sources to develop a similar history and organization, without any exposure to that RPG.  ]

But your analysis there goes a bit further: 10% of wizards are wardens?
That's a really interesting idea.
Yet again, I think we have no surety, neither WoJ nor canonical source.

But let's take your 10% as a working number, for the sake of discussion.

This is, in fact, a remarkable figure.

I am going to look at that "10%" number vis-a-vis the so-called "Tooth-to-Tail Ratio," the amount of support personnel (aka "tail") needed to support each "tooth" (fighting soldier) in an army.  And the answer is... a tooth:tail ratio of about 1:10.

If you look at the USA, the soldier:civilian ratio is more like 1:200 or 1:300.

By these standards, the entirety of the White Council appears to be a standing army:  a magical military force, tooth and tail.

[Con]

Found a relevant passage of about a thousand wizards hearing Ariana's peace proposal in Changes.

Certainly the White Council was in a state of total war for the Red Court or atleast close to it. We know without the auxiliary support from the Venatori and Fellowship the White Council would have lost. So everyone being conscripted for some sort of active service seems plausible. Harry certainly was and they wanted nothing to do with him.

It also depends on what the increased recruitment rate is both in terms of Wardens and inductee's into the White Council in general. Harry mentions that since population boom the White Council can't keep up with grade A talent emerging. Hannah Ascher certainly proves that people capable of magical combat are among them she managed to kill several wardens before Lasciel presumably. Harry also mentions during lulls of the War Wardens were working double time to clean up all the sprouting warlocks and sorcerors.

Harry estimated that there were 1000 jaguar and priests on each side of the pyramids at Chitzen Itza.
 Fomor had between 5 and 7000 in BG.

No wonder Wardens are being overrun. Having said that Carlos estimated in WK that his guys could take half a dozen Ramps in a straight up fight each. So let's assume 1v6 ratio.

White Council vs Red Court was probably a fair fight then, or atleast it was until The decimation.

Still hard to judge numbers given population boom and recruiting.

[LordDresden2]

I more or less agree with you... I think 2000 is a likely-ish number.


But your analysis there goes a bit further: 10% of wizards are wardens?
That's a really interesting idea.
Yet again, I think we have no surety, neither WoJ nor canonical source.

But let's take your 10% as a working number, for the sake of discussion.

This is, in fact, a remarkable figure.

I am going to look at that "10%" number vis-a-vis the so-called "Tooth-to-Tail Ratio," the amount of support personnel (aka "tail") needed to support each "tooth" (fighting soldier) in an army.  And the answer is... a tooth:tail ratio of about 1:10.

If you look at the USA, the soldier:civilian ratio is more like 1:200 or 1:300.

By these standards, the entirety of the White Council appears to be a standing army:  a magical military force, tooth and tail.

Which is more or less what we would expect.

Comparing the Council to a nation-state is highly misleading.  The USA is far more than just an armed force, it's a full, functioning society, with all the complexities and cultural, religious, and social implications thereof.  It, and any nation-state, is far more than the Council.  The Council's collective power might exceed that of any national government, even the USA, (at least by some metrics) but it's still an association of Wizards, a technocratic guild, and a policing agency for a very small, specialized subgroup of humanity.

The White Council is the closest thing to a species-wide government for the human race in the Dresdenverse.  To the degree that any group speaks for mankind as a whole to the other races, it's the Council.  But it's a very limited degree and it governs secretly and very little.

As Anastasia said, it exists to restrain power, and along the way sometimes defends the human race from major supernatural threats.  As JB said, these days it primarily suppresses warlocks and black magic, but at one time it existed to keep Wizards out of mundane politics, too.  (It still does do that, but that's a side issue mostly these days.)

So having a huge percentage of the Council be Wardens makes sense.  It's basically a policing agency.

[Snark Knight]

I don't think we know, neither by canon mention nor by WoJ from events.

The WC was certainly recruiting/training them up thru the final Chichen Itza battle, & I preume the training didn't stop instantly; as the Fomor and other "new" threats emerged, the WC might even have decided to keep their wartime training levels going.

But... we just don't know.

I'd be surprised if the narrator actually knows either.

Even after Rashid vouched for him being back alive and himself to the Council, Mab had him almost totally incommunicado on the island for CD-SG.  For the few months he was back on land for SG-PT, Langtry was probably leaning on the wardens to limit Harry's access to new classified information while the expulsion vote was brewing. If you're kicking Harry out for being in a conflict of interest for swearing to Winter, you probably don't want him leaving with a head full of fresh Council secrets like Warden force levels, personnel files, etc.

[g33k]

Comparing the Council to a nation-state is highly misleading ...

You're absolutely correct.
My point was that the WC, as an organization, looks a lot more like a standing army; much more so than it resembles a nation.

Nevertheless, it also has things like meetings to vote, etc, that look kind of more like a civilian government than like a military.

Here's maybe a closer comparison:  some historic mercenary companies had IIRC a voting membership to whom the leaders were beholden, and to whom the leaders had to get a vote on key matters (or at least, this is a common fantasy trope (I'm only sure of a few historic exemplars)... but that's plenty for Jim to model from!).

[Avernite]

You're absolutely correct.
My point was that the WC, as an organization, looks a lot more like a standing army; much more so than it resembles a nation.

Nevertheless, it also has things like meetings to vote, etc, that look kind of more like a civilian government than like a military.

Here's maybe a closer comparison:  some historic mercenary companies had IIRC a voting membership to whom the leaders were beholden, and to whom the leaders had to get a vote on key matters (or at least, this is a common fantasy trope (I'm only sure of a few historic exemplars)... but that's plenty for Jim to model from!).

I'm thinking more a Knightly Order like the Templars or Hospitallers. But I'm coming up blank on Knights vs Members for those orders.

[g33k]

I'm thinking more a Knightly Order like the Templars or Hospitallers. But I'm coming up blank on Knights vs Members for those orders.

The Hospitallers still exist.

There are about 40 "First Class" members, 600 "Second Class" members (mainly titled "Knights in Obedience") and 12,400 "Third Class" members.
(per Wikipedia, fwiw)

[Avernite]

The Hospitallers still exist.

There are about 40 "First Class" members, 600 "Second Class" members (mainly titled "Knights in Obedience") and 12,400 "Third Class" members.
(per Wikipedia, fwiw)

Sure, but it's not exactly a military society anymore. I wouldn't translate those numbers to '640 soldiers, 12400 hangers-on'. What I'm thinking to compare to is them circa siege of Malta, or even during the wars in the Levant.

[g33k]

Sure, but it's not exactly a military society anymore. I wouldn't translate those numbers to '640 soldiers, 12400 hangers-on'. What I'm thinking to compare to is them circa siege of Malta, or even during the wars in the Levant.

I believe they act as combat medics; they own & operate a train-based mobile hospital.

I suspect that requires a comparable "tooth:tail" ratio.