Harry is a Dad...Again..😳

[Dina]

I see the situation of becoming a WK differently. Harry was the one asking for it, initiating the deal. It is different that if Mab has taken Maggie as a hostage and asked Harry to have sex with her. And if now that he already is the WK Mab forces him to have sex, I think Mira has a point, it should not break the protection.

[vincentric]

Unfortunately, the true love protection can be invalidated by force.

In Turncoat, Madeline threatens to kidnap Justine and use her powers to have her have sex with a random partner so that she can then devour her. Thomas takes this very seriously and proceed to beat the brakes off her, so we know this is a valid threat.

[Dina]

I was going to say that we did not see it working and Madeline is not a trust source, but you are right, Thomas believed her.  And he should know.

[Mira]

I was going to say that we did not see it working and Madeline is not a trust source, but you are right, Thomas believed her.  And he should know.

Or does he?  Has this been tested?  What is strange is why if a simple sex act with anyone can break the protection why didn't Thomas and Justine think about her having sex with someone else a long time before she finally did in Ghost Story?  Or at what point did their love become, "true love"?  Supposedly Blood Rites, but didn't they love one another before? Thomas happily fed off of her without being burnt for years..  Did he stop feeding because he was willing to die than kill her, or because it began to burn him?   

[Regenbogen]

Or does he?  Has this been tested?  What is strange is why if a simple sex act with anyone can break the protection why didn't Thomas and Justine think about her having sex with someone else a long time before she finally did in Ghost Story?  Or at what point did their love become, "true love"?  Supposedly Blood Rites, but didn't they love one another before? Thomas happily fed off of her without being burnt for years..  Did he stop feeding because he was willing to die than kill her, or because it began to burn him?

As for why didn't they use other sex partners: no idea. Weird.

When did true love begin: presumably during Blood Rites, BUT I honestly don't believe that it is true love. I think after the almost fatal feeding, Nemesis took over completely and whatever was left of the real Justine (also not sure we have ever seen the real Justine at all) died. The whole true love stuff has been faked by Nemesis. And I hope the pregnancy is also fake, because this would be extremely dark.

Faked true love burn is easy. Any wizard could do it, if they work concentrated and precise. Even the shawl Justine gave to Thomas could just be a cursed object which burns WCVs when their skin is exposed to it.

And I also think, just sleeping with anyone else is too easy. There must be something more behind breaking a true love "curse".

And didn't Thomas regularly have joggers in Harry's bed. I assume they had sex there. So if the curse is broken when one of the partners sleeps with someone else, why did Justine still burn Thomas? Or did he stop having sex with others once he became a hairdresser?
Or do BOTH true love partners need to have sex with others?

Will we ever know?

[Mira]

As for why didn't they use other sex partners: no idea. Weird.

When did true love begin: presumably during Blood Rites, BUT I honestly don't believe that it is true love. I think after the almost fatal feeding, Nemesis took over completely and whatever was left of the real Justine (also not sure we have ever seen the real Justine at all) died. The whole true love stuff has been faked by Nemesis. And I hope the pregnancy is also fake, because this would be extremely dark.

Faked true love burn is easy. Any wizard could do it, if they work concentrated and precise. Even the shawl Justine gave to Thomas could just be a cursed object which burns WCVs when their skin is exposed to it.

And I also think, just sleeping with anyone else is too easy. There must be something more behind breaking a true love "curse".

And didn't Thomas regularly have joggers in Harry's bed. I assume they had sex there. So if the curse is broken when one of the partners sleeps with someone else, why did Justine still burn Thomas? Or did he stop having sex with others once he became a hairdresser?
Or do BOTH true love partners need to have sex with others?

Will we ever know?

He had sexual contact or gave that kind of pleasure to the women who's hair he dressed.  Does that count as a sex act?  It's what White Court Vamps do, and it is very much about sexual pleasure.  And yeah, that's one of my questions as well, is it only the vanilla mortal that can blow the true love protection by being unfaithful?  Or is a WCV even capable of feeling true love?  Apparently Thomas is, or that may come from his mother.  As I said in another post, I wouldn't be shocked if Justine was infested with Nemesis from the very beginning and it was a long term set up for poor Thomas.

[LordDresden2]

He had sexual contact or gave that kind of pleasure to the women who's hair he dressed.  Does that count as a sex act?  It's what White Court Vamps do, and it is very much about sexual pleasure.  And yeah, that's one of my questions as well, is it only the vanilla mortal that can blow the true love protection by being unfaithful?  Or is a WCV even capable of feeling true love?

Based on what we've seen so far, there is no doubt in my mind that WC members are capable, at least in principle, of any human emotion or reaction or experience.  They are magically-altered, demon-parasitized human beings.  They can be soulgazed, they generate tech bane when they use magic, etc.

  Apparently Thomas is, or that may come from his mother.  As I said in another post, I wouldn't be shocked if Justine was infested with Nemesis from the very beginning and it was a long term set up for poor Thomas.

The only problem with that intriguingly horrible thought is that Thomas experienced the love burn effect with Justine after what happened in Blood Rites.  For that to work, the love has to be mutual.  So at least at that point, Justine did love Thomas, whatever else Nemesis might or might not have been engaged in.

[g33k]

Justine's protections continued even after Thomas was sexually active with others; there were both quick flings (e.g. the jogger he brought back while rooming with Harry) and longer-term but less intense occasions as "Toe-moss" the hairdresser.  Thomas' faithfulness doesn't impact Justine's protection.

Presumably, after intimacy with Justine but before he engaged in any sort of erotic intimacy with another party, Thomas himself was protected from other whampires' feeding on (or touching) him. 

[Mira]

The only problem with that intriguingly horrible thought is that Thomas experienced the love burn effect with Justine after what happened in Blood Rites.  For that to work, the love has to be mutual.  So at least at that point, Justine did love Thomas, whatever else Nemesis might or might not have been engaged in.

Did she?  Or can Nemesis mimic true love so that Thomas would truly believe she loved him? Still doesn't answer the question as to why it took years before they figured out that if she simply had a one night stand with somebody they could consummate their true love?  He is a White Court Vamp, she has been kine for years, they both know how the protection gig works.  I mean, forgive me I don't remember which book, but I remember the scene in a night club, Thomas and Justine were there, she is wearing some kind of rubber suit so he can have his arm around her without burning..  Why the elaborate work around when a meaningless one night stand would do the trick? Years went by between Blood Rites and Ghost Story when we finally see Justine coming home with a girl friend to have sex supposedly in front of Thomas so she and Thomas can then make love?  Really? Why did she have to bring her friend home? Couldn't she just have told Thomas?  I mean he'd know fairly quickly if her protection was still there.  This is also the time when supposedly Harry is dead, but what if through Nemesis, Justine knows he really isn't, that as Winter Knight his star born status will soon be asserting itself in the coming years.. So it's time to begin part two of the plan, set Thomas up for the events in Peace Talks.. Why? Thomas is one of Harry's weaknesses, also divide and distract while they mount an attack at the Gates.

[vincentric]

Did she?  Or can Nemesis mimic true love so that Thomas would truly believe she loved him? Still doesn't answer the question as to why it took years before they figured out that if she simply had a one night stand with somebody they could consummate their true love?  He is a White Court Vamp, she has been kine for years, they both know how the protection gig works.  I mean, forgive me I don't remember which book, but I remember the scene in a night club, Thomas and Justine were there, she is wearing some kind of rubber suit so he can have his arm around her without burning..  Why the elaborate work around when a meaningless one night stand would do the trick? Years went by between Blood Rites and Ghost Story when we finally see Justine coming home with a girl friend to have sex supposedly in front of Thomas so she and Thomas can then make love?  Really? Why did she have to bring her friend home? Couldn't she just have told Thomas?  I mean he'd know fairly quickly if her protection was still there.  This is also the time when supposedly Harry is dead, but what if through Nemesis, Justine knows he really isn't, that as Winter Knight his star born status will soon be asserting itself in the coming years.. So it's time to begin part two of the plan, set Thomas up for the events in Peace Talks.. Why? Thomas is one of Harry's weaknesses, also divide and distract while they mount an attack at the Gates.

If they were truly in love, then they wanted to be faithful to each other. So, there would be no lovers that the others didn't know and approve of. And though it wouldn't be very difficult to arrange, it would still be a pain to have to find a third every time they wanted to have sex. They probably did know that this was a solution but didn't want to resort to it.

I don't remember the random jogger, but Thomas never had intercourse with any of his hair clients and so no physical act there. Jim tends to favor the mechanical over the metaphysical in most of these situations. Harry still loved Susan after hooking up with Luccio, but his protection was broken nonetheless.

[g33k]

If they were truly in love, then they wanted to be faithful to each other ...

I think the more's of the Whampires -- even whampires in love -- are very different around the issue of being "faithful."  It's literally a matter of eating, of survival.

... And though it wouldn't be very difficult to arrange, it would still be a pain to have to find a third every time they wanted to have sex ...

I'm pretty sure it'd be *incredibly* easy for them to set up.
The White Court is chock-full of willing -- in fact, eager! -- mortal partners.  $$$ is not an object for them, either.  Set up a an apartment next door with 3-4 clued-in models, and most of the time at least one of them is literally just 30 seconds away.

... They probably did know that this was a solution but didn't want to resort to it.

That seems unlikely, tbh.  OTOH, I don't have a "likely" seeming alternative to offer.

...
I don't remember the random jogger ...

Very early-on in... I don't actually remember which story.  It's while Thomas is living with Harry.

But:  Harry comes home grouchy, and a cute girl comes out of the shower.  Harry says something biting, the girl snaps back... then concludes that Harry is just Thomas' (gay) lover, being jealous.  She calls Thomas "very naughty" or somesuch.

[Dina]

Vincentric said what I want to say.
Justine and Thomas always knew how to break the protection. But they did not want to have sex with other people, they want to be faithful. I think it was in GS that Harry saw the moment Justine says something like "enough, I do not want this anymore, let's break the protection and move on". And I always thought it was a practical, rational decision but now I see it as a red flag of Nemesis. They normally are too emotional and do not want to share their lover with anyone else.
Thomas did not have sex with anyone while the True Love was in, that is why he was always hungry. The hairdresser thing only helped him so much.

I do believe that protection is for each member of the pair separately. I think if Susan (after leaving) have had sex with someone, Harry would still be protected until he began sleeping with Luccio.

I also think whampires are perfectly able to love. I do not think Thomas is that special. It is probably very unusual, and in that sense yes, Thomas is special. But physically, it is possible for any of them.

[Mira]

Justine and Thomas always knew how to break the protection. But they did not want to have sex with other people, they want to be faithful. I think it was in GS that Harry saw the moment Justine says something like "enough, I do not want this anymore, let's break the protection and move on". And I always thought it was a practical, rational decision but now I see it as a red flag of Nemesis. They normally are too emotional and do not want to share their lover with anyone else.
Thomas did not have sex with anyone while the True Love was in, that is why he was always hungry. The hairdresser thing only helped him so much.

But Thomas was always hungry because he tried to not be what he is, a vampire.. I guess the fall back line for Thomas in this case could be the famous President Clinton quote on whether or not he had sex with M.L., "Depends on what your definition of is, is."  No, Thomas while feeding didn't have sex as in the classic sense, but while feeding he was giving sexual pleasure... So was it sex or not?

[Dina]

Not in the sense that could break the protection. Jim was very clear that it had to be sex (and apparently heterosexual too, because he said something about the potential for creating life).
And Thomas was not hungry by the time he met Harry. He regularly fed from Justine and was ok. It was when the protection kicked that Thomas became hungry because he could not feed from Justine and did not want to cheat on her either. The hair saloon was just a way of survive and be functional, but he was always hungry. He fought every day against temptation and sometimes I feel that is dismissed in the world. In my opinion that makes him one of the strongest characters, at the least in the will department. I suspect that is going to help him inn the future, especially if he ends with a Sword.

[Regenbogen]

Not in the sense that could break the protection. Jim was very clear that it had to be sex (and apparently heterosexual too, because he said something about the potential for creating life).
And Thomas was not hungry by the time he met Harry. He regularly fed from Justine and was ok. It was when the protection kicked that Thomas became hungry because he could not feed from Justine and did not want to cheat on her either. The hair saloon was just a way of survive and be functional, but he was always hungry. He fought every day against temptation and sometimes I feel that is dismissed in the world. In my opinion that makes him one of the strongest characters, at the least in the will department. I suspect that is going to help him inn the future, especially if he ends with a Sword.

I agree. Thomas' will has my deepest respect. His fight against temptation also weakened him. He was less well fed than other Vampires. I have to think of his way to explain to Harry what it is like, when they run on the beach and he empties Harry's water bottle after Harry has just wettet his tongue with a little drop of water.
Very impressive demonstration. Just imagine being that thirsty and having that full bottle of water but you restrain yourself and just take a little sip, while the rest of the water is still there within your reach. And then doing this over a year. Very impressive.

Now that I think about the sex: the random joggers were at the beginning of Dead Beat when Thomas already lived with Harry for one year. Confirmed by the timeline https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline#sf
During that time, Justine was still at the Raith mansion, recovering from Blood Rites.
I am guessing the (fake) true love magic started after she got better and they started to have sex again. Was this during White Night? If yes, it would be 2 years after Dead Beat.

Thomas moved out at the end of Dead Beat. If I remember correctly, Justine started to be herself again in White Night, when she lead Harry and Carlos to the Raith Deeps. This would also have been the time when she and Thomas started being together again. When did Thomas show Harry the scarf?  I'll look it up if I have time and come back to edit.