Harry is a Dad...Again..😳

[Mira]

I do not think that is possible. Changes, Ghost Story and Cold Days are the books I reread the less, so I may be misremembering, but I think Harry made a clause that Mab cannot just ordering him around. No puppeteer. And for Murphy Harry will have the will power to resist the mantle or whatever. Marrying someone for political reasons can be argued as a part of the WK obligations, but I do not think that includes being raped. And being forced to have sex unwillingly is rape. Also, if Mab forced him to do something like that, Harry would be rebellious all the way, useless to her.

But even more important, I think Mab is not aware of the protection. Once (if) she realizes that is the case, she won't force Harry to break it. She has shown respect for Murphy and for Harry's feelings about her.

And yes, your scenario for Harry evading the wedding is quite probable.

I agree, Harry's protection from Susan lasted for years to Lara's shock and her burn back in White Night when they kissed. Harry apparently didn't any relations with a woman in all of that time.  It wasn't until he had that affair with Luccio did he begin to have relations again and his protection went away.  I don't see Harry having casual sex with anyone so he could have relations with Lara, unless he cared for her in that way.  I also doubt that, though possible I guess, that Lara could arrange for Harry to be raped.

[vincentric]

I do not think that is possible. Changes, Ghost Story and Cold Days are the books I reread the less, so I may be misremembering, but I think Harry made a clause that Mab cannot just ordering him around. No puppeteer. And for Murphy Harry will have the will power to resist the mantle or whatever. Marrying someone for political reasons can be argued as a part of the WK obligations, but I do not think that includes being raped. And being forced to have sex unwillingly is rape. Also, if Mab forced him to do something like that, Harry would be rebellious all the way, useless to her.

But even more important, I think Mab is not aware of the protection. Once (if) she realizes that is the case, she won't force Harry to break it. She has shown respect for Murphy and for Harry's feelings about her.

And yes, your scenario for Harry evading the wedding is quite probable.

Having just reread Changes, Mab can order Harry into bed with someone. The only condition he set was that she does not command him to raise his hand against his loved ones. But I don't think she wants to force him. As she said at the end of Battle Ground, she has buried many lovers, but the fight must be fought still. In her roundabout, tough love fae way, Mab is telling him to grieve, but to get back on the horse. She is probably aware of the protection, but expects Harry, Lara and Molly to figure a way around it especially since Harry works better when given a task and allowed to complete it in his own manner.

[Mira]

Having just reread Changes, Mab can order Harry into bed with someone. The only condition he set was that she does not command him to raise his hand against his loved ones. But I don't think she wants to force him. As she said at the end of Battle Ground, she has buried many lovers, but the fight must be fought still. In her roundabout, tough love fae way, Mab is telling him to grieve, but to get back on the horse. She is probably aware of the protection, but expects Harry, Lara and Molly to figure a way around it especially since Harry works better when given a task and allowed to complete it in his own manner.

Mab maybe able to order him to bed with someone, but he cannot force him to have sex!  Erections are often connected to emotions and attitude, so if Harry doesn't wanna, I don't see it happening.. Yeah, maybe with lots of stimulation, drugs, spells, hypnosis perhaps, but that kind of gets into whether it was involuntary, which is something we've discussed before, though it's been a long time.. If it is rape or otherwise involuntary, does it destroy the original protection?  My thinking is it wouldn't, if fidelity is the basis of the protection.  Since true love seems to be tied into the protection, fidelity must be part of it. 

[Dina]

Having just reread Changes, Mab can order Harry into bed with someone. The only condition he set was that she does not command him to raise his hand against his loved ones. But I don't think she wants to force him. As she said at the end of Battle Ground, she has buried many lovers, but the fight must be fought still. In her roundabout, tough love fae way, Mab is telling him to grieve, but to get back on the horse. She is probably aware of the protection, but expects Harry, Lara and Molly to figure a way around it especially since Harry works better when given a task and allowed to complete it in his own manner.

Ah yes, my favourite old theory about that loophole. (Mab is going to ask Harry to kill her, without realizing that after several years serving her, Harry loves her (not in the romantical sense!). So, Harry will be free of the obligations of the WK. Another option, that was not available before, is that Murphy comes back looking different and for some reason Mab, without knowing who she is, asks Harry to kill/destroy her, Instant freedom for Harry and nor him nor Mab would know why.

[g33k]

...  Erections are often connected to emotions and attitude, so if Harry doesn't wanna, I don't see it happening.. Yeah, maybe with lots of stimulation, drugs, spells, hypnosis perhaps ...

The only needed "drug" is already in Harry's system:  the hyper-sexual & hyper-aggressive WK Mantle.

Harry has been able to keep it mostly under control (tho he broke some of Andi's ribs, I think, in Cold Days; and almost murdered Rudy in Battle Ground).

Harry does "wanna" (kind of a lot!) but doesn't often act on those wants (and never casually) because he makes a conscious decision not to... often in the face of extreme/supernatural provocation.

Mab could well eliminate that decision-making step, within the bounds of Winter Law and her specific bargain with Harry.

But, as I said:  I don't think Jim is going to write it that way; that's how the rules of the Dresdenverse would work out if he wrote that situation, but I'm pretty sure he'll write something different.

[Mira]

The only needed "drug" is already in Harry's system:  the hyper-sexual & hyper-aggressive WK Mantle.

  But technically, is that is mantel not Harry.  It was Harry and not the mantel that shared true love with Murphy... So Harry is still protected.

[g33k]

... But technically, is that is mantel not Harry.  It was Harry and not the mantel that shared true love with Murphy... So Harry is still protected.

(a) No, it's Harry.  The WK-mantle only boosts what's already there, makes some impulses louder than others.  Everyone has these dark impulses.

(b) true love's protection vs. whampires isn't relevant to the WK Mantle, its urges, etc... Harry has zero protection from the WKM & Mab's authority under Winter Law (including valid orders such as "go f--k someone before your wedding-day").
 

[Mira]

(a) No, it's Harry.  The WK-mantle only boosts what's already there, makes some impulses louder than others.  Everyone has these dark impulses.

(b) true love's protection vs. whampires isn't relevant to the WK Mantle, its urges, etc... Harry has zero protection from the WKM & Mab's authority under Winter Law (including valid orders such as "go f--k someone before your wedding-day").
 

[a] I'm not so sure about that... If the mantle boosts impulses that are already there, why wouldn't it boost the loving impulse just as strongly as the dark violent one?  After all the love/hate thing seem to exist on the head/tails sides of the emotional coin.  So because of the mantle, Harry's true love impulse might be stronger than ever.

Mab has no authority over Harry's emotions and the mantle only enhances them.  True love is one of the strongest forces on earth, also I doubt that Mab, even the mantle can force Harry to have sex, it's more complicated than that.

[g33k]

[a] I'm not so sure about that... If the mantle boosts impulses that are already there, why wouldn't it boost the loving impulse just as strongly as the dark violent one?

Because it's a Winter Mantle.  It amplifies Harry's aggression, his territoriality, his sex-drive, his taste for violence.
It quiets his urge to compromise, his caution, and most if not all of his gentler emotions; it cannot mute them, but it often takes Harry an act of will to calm himself, to reconnect with those.

... also I doubt that Mab, even the mantle can force Harry to have sex, it's more complicated than that.

I think Winter Law takes no account of love.  That doesn't mean the love doesn't exist, doesn't have impact; but love is a mystery to Winter, and the Law does not take it into account.  Sex, in the Winter Court, is I think mostly about power; not affection or pleasure.

I'm pretty sure Winter Law would thus consider "go f--k someone" a perfectly valid command from the Queen of Winter.

And the WK Mantle would respond accordingly.

As you note, none of this actually forces Harry to have sex ...  But I think he loses the protections of the Mantle if he violates Winter Law so egregiously as disobeying a direct & legla order from the Queen; remember his proclamation "Fuck Winter Law!" in Molly's apartment.

[Dina]

I am not sure. It does not seem normally orders Harry things that are not his strict job. I do not think Harry refusing to obey that command you suggest would be considered Harry rejecting Winter itself.

[g33k]

I am not sure. It does not seem normally orders Harry things that are not his strict job...

Do we know what Harry's "strict job" (as WK) even is?

I think I recall Bob telling Harry -- back in Summer Knight? -- that the Knight had different specific obligations to each of the 3 Queens; IIRC it was implied that there was no (or very little) overlap.  But I don't think we ever heard what those obligations were.

We also know the Knights exists as both a mortal-interface element (interacting with mortals in ways the Queens may not) and explicitly (at least the WK) as a killer; and furthermore, that one of the SK's specific obligations is to act to limit the damages done by the WK.

... I do not think Harry refusing to obey that command you suggest would be considered Harry rejecting Winter itself.

I don't expect we're going to see Jim write things such that canon will resolve the question; so unless someone poses it at a signing+Q&A event or an online AMA, I expect the issue will remain both unresolved, and moot.   

But remember:  Harry had sex as the centerpiece of the WK binding ritual.

I don't think Winter understands or cares about love but I think sex can carry all sorts of potency within Winter (and broadly within Faerie).

I think Winter Law... hmmm; shall we say "takes notice"? ... of sex.
Harry may find himself with a lot less wiggle-room than he's used to.
 

[Dina]

I agree with all what you said, and until it is said in the books. we can especulate. I have the feeling if he Harry had thought that Mab could ask him to rape someone, he would not have considered becoming the WK or he would have make extra conditions in his "deal" with her. In your defense, perhaps Harry thought that Mab won't order him that, even if technically the law would allow her that. I do not know.

[Mira]

But remember:  Harry had sex as the centerpiece of the WK binding ritual.

Yes, he did, but it wasn't against his will, he did it because it was part of the ritual and becoming Winter Knight was the only way to save his daughter.  There was no force involved, it was his choice.

[g33k]

Yes, he did, but it wasn't against his will, he did it because it was part of the ritual and becoming Winter Knight was the only way to save his daughter.  There was no force involved, it was his choice.

"Have sex with me or your daughter dies" is pretty God-damned coercive sex; pretty much any parent is "willing" under those circumstances.

Harry had been resisting Mab's overtures for over a decade before that.

[Mira]

"Have sex with me or your daughter dies" is pretty God-damned coercive sex; pretty much any parent is "willing" under those circumstances.

Harry had been resisting Mab's overtures for over a decade before that.

  Again, but that really break his true love protection?  Key word here, coercive, means it was against his will.  Wasn't just his daughter's life, but his, and his grandfather's lives as well, only viable bad choice among some worse choices was to become the Winter Knight.  Part of that ritual was having sex with Mab, no choice in that either, if he wanted to become the Winter Knight.  Would you call that being unfaithful to his true love?  And yes, he would have gone on resisting Mab's overtures, but lives were on the line, his daughter, and his own..