Does Thomas get a free pass?

[Mira]

Odin isn't Fae.
The Kringlemantle is: ^{-- https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/... Search for "Kringle" on the page}

Just like Harry himself isn't Fae, but the WK mantel is.

But then Jim goes on in the next line to say;

His mantle, yes, is part of the Winter Court. Which does not necessarily mean that he himself is Fae as much as the fact that his mantle is. While he’s there, he’s got to pay deference to Mab. If Mab gives him a command, he has to obey it.
2013 KC signing Q&A
If you’re (a powerful immortal being) in the real world, well, the problem is that you’re in the world, and you’re kind of mortal, and something could come along and try and whack you, if they’re fast enough, or good enough, or lucky enough. Which makes Odin a kind of special guy, because he doesn’t mind it, he thinks it’s awesome.

What I don't understand, is in the Q&A, Jim calls Kringle a "mantle" but in the book he calls Kringle a "person," in the body of Odin. Plus a lot of talk about protocol.  Which brings me to what Jim says next about Odin, how I read it is while in theory Kringle has to obey Mab, Odin/Kringle doesn't mind giving her the finger on occasion if her agenda doesn't match his.  In Skin Game their agendas matched, what would be interesting is if Mab gave Kringle an order which didn't match Odin's agenda.. Then we would see how readily Kringle would obey Mab.. That's where all the talk of protocol to prevent conflict comes in I think.

[g33k]

... What I don't understand, is in the Q&A, Jim calls Kringle a "mantle" but in the book he calls Kringle a "person," in the body of Odin. Plus a lot of talk about protocol.

Harry is an "unreliable narrator," and has limited understanding of things.
I think you are inferring more from & about the Harry-POV than actually is stated.

The WoJ is clear:  "Kringle" is a faerie mantle (specifically, Winterfae).

... Which brings me to what Jim says next about Odin, how I read it is while in theory Kringle has to obey Mab, Odin/Kringle doesn't mind giving her the finger on occasion if her agenda doesn't match his.  In Skin Game their agendas matched, what would be interesting is if Mab gave Kringle an order which didn't match Odin's agenda.. Then we would see how readily Kringle would obey Mab.. That's where all the talk of protocol to prevent conflict comes in I think.

Odin knows the trick of taking off a mantle without dying, of holding onto it, of putting it back on again at need.  If Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle, he has to obey Mab; if Odin isn't willing to obey Mab, he just takes off the Kringlemantle (and loses the Christmas-y Kringlepowers... but he's still f'ing Odin the Allfather, who was ancient before mortal-Mab first joined the fae; and things probably just got really tense...) .

Harry doesn't stop being Harry, just because he's got the WK mantle (I'm expecting him to learn the off-and-on mantle trick from Odin).

Reading between the lines, I think Odin & Mab probably both put in a bit of effort to see to it that Odin's interests do not seriously conflict with Mab's interests, during the time that Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle:  neither one of them wants that conflict, but neither one of them could avoid it under the rightwrong circumstances.

[Mira]

Harry is an "unreliable narrator," and has limited understanding of things.
I think you are inferring more from & about the Harry-POV than actually is stated.

You are saying that Harry was quoting Vadderung/Odin wrong.. Possible, but then again we will have to see.

Odin knows the trick of taking off a mantle without dying, of holding onto it, of putting it back on again at need.  If Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle, he has to obey Mab; if Odin isn't willing to obey Mab, he just takes off the Kringlemantle (and loses the Christmas-y Kringlepowers... but he's still f'ing Odin the Allfather, who was ancient before mortal-Mab first joined the fae; and things probably just got really tense...) .

Which really makes Vadderung/Odin's point doesn't it.  Protocol, in other words while wearing the Kringlemantle, Kringle has to obey Mab, but only as long as Mab's agenda goes along with Odin.  If it doesn't, Odin simply drops the Kringlemantle, AND he doesn't have to obey Mab.  And yes, things would get tense really quick, so it is all handled very diplomatically, through protocol because Odin or Kringle/Odin doesn't need to duel Mab as Vadderung/Odin points out.

Reading between the lines, I think Odin & Mab probably both put in a bit of effort to see to it that Odin's interests do not seriously conflict with Mab's interests, during the time that Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle:  neither one of them wants that conflict, but neither one of them could avoid it under the rightwrong circumstances.

Again, protocol, so on the surface Kringle has to obey Mab as a member of Winter, but since he is also Odin, he can drop the mantle ,and tell her to go fish at anytime which wouldn't be good.. So it is in the best interest of both to play nice, Mab is never going to command Kringle to do anything that Odin would really object to.. 

[g33k]

You are saying that Harry was quoting Vadderung/Odin wrong.. Possible, but then again we will have to see ...

No, I'm saying that Harry was understanding Vadderung/Odin wrong.
I quote Obi-Wan "It was true... from a certain point of view."

Odin doesn't want to just come out and say some of this outright.  He wants Harry to come to the understanding with a minimum of prompting from outside powers.

Here's the thing:  "Kringle" is a person... but only while Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle.  That "person" doesn't exist when Odin "takes off" the mantle, because "Kringle" (the person) is specifically and only the person who is wearing the Kringlemantle.

[OutsideIn]

To much off topic. Let's start other threads

[g33k]

Just because his babies held hostage in a way... Doesn't give you a free pass to murder. I think Thomas if he survives imprisonment. He'll die a martyr saving the day of some type..
The bill comes due...

I think it's worth noting that there are two questions being addressed in the thread:
1st (as posed in this OP) - Is "Karma" a bitch?  Does "Fate" now have a violent end in store for Thomas?  Is Thomas (having murdered) now doomed to face a violent (albeit possibly heroic) end?  It's worth noting here that Thomas has been a murderer ever since we met him:  whampires only manifest fully after their 1st full feeding, which AFAIK is always to the death (n.b. Connie & Irwin are an odd case)... so Thomas must have killed his first lover.

The 2nd question is the physical & practical one:  can he escape the Svartalven demands for retribution?

I note a similar parallel between the White Council's "Laws of Magic" -- which they enforce legalistically, at trial -- and the "natural law" laws of magic, which comes in to form of psychic trauma & damage (and, as Jim likes to say, "cackling villainy").  The WC laws are "only human:"  they can fail to detect broken Laws, they can fail to convict wrong-doers, they can falsely-convict those who aren't fallen to the Dark Side.   The "natural laws" come for Black Magicians willy-nilly (though evidently the Blackstaff (MW's WS) can stave that off, for the wielder), and impose their own penalties (often madness).

[The_Sibelis]

I don't see the svartalves being an issue really, they're old school in the same view as Mab? They more than likely know of Nemesis?
Put two and two together, point out Thomas was nothing but a weapon not the perp, and they might actually owe due to what they did to him... I mean, they already DO, but if they actually accepted the fact it would be paramount to owing a life.

[Mira]

I think it's worth noting that there are two questions being addressed in the thread:
1st (as posed in this OP) - Is "Karma" a bitch?  Does "Fate" now have a violent end in store for Thomas?  Is Thomas (having murdered) now doomed to face a violent (albeit possibly heroic) end?  It's worth noting here that Thomas has been a murderer ever since we met him:  whampires only manifest fully after their 1st full
 feeding, which AFAIK is always to the death (n.b. Connie & Irwin are an odd case)... so Thomas must have killed his first lover.

Yes, he did murder his first victim, it has been years since I read Blood Rites, but if I remember correctly Lord Raith set him up. Young, with perhaps little understanding of what he was, let alone control, he fed upon his first victim until she died and became a full vampire himself.  Lord Raith did the same with Lara, and tried to set up their little sister, Inari with Harry as her first kill.  Interesting that though especially Lara was at peace with her status, Thomas also for the most part, neither wanted that for their little sister, they wanted her to have at least a choice, nor have a chance that true love would burn out the Hunger Demon before she killed anyone.  In short Lord Raith set Thomas up to commit murder, and in spite of some efforts not to, he has committed murder since in the course of feeding, especially during and after the Skin Walker had a hold of him.

[g33k]

Yes, he did murder his first victim, it has been years since I read Blood Rites, but if I remember correctly Lord Raith set him up ...

This is pretty much "family life" for all Whampires.

The parents all "set up" their kids, try to make sure that "first feeding" is just teen hormones & body-chemistry (or teenage angst/despair for the Skavis, etc).  A few train them young and ruthless, so they know ahead of time... but that's the exception.

[g33k]

I don't see the svartalves being an issue really, they're old school in the same view as Mab? They more than likely know of Nemesis?

Harry remarked that he took notice of exactly who (at the Peace Talks) showed realization of what was implied by the Outer Gates being assaulted by the Outsiders, simultaneously with Ethniu's attack.

Jim -- that bastard! -- didn't tell us which parties were which.  I suspect he's leaving himself wiggle-room for future writing, where some groups that you'd think would know, do not; and some that you'd expect not to, do (maybe Jim even has some specific ideas in that direction).

I'd think that:

• if Harry&co could prove that Nemesis was actually the bad actor
• if the Svartalves know of Nemesis

then Thomas could escape the most-severe Svartalven penalties.

But I'm not at all confident that (in Jim's Dresdenverse) this is the case.

[The_Sibelis]

I'd think that:

• if Harry&co could prove that Nemesis was actually the bad actor
• if the Svartalves know of Nemesis

then Thomas could escape the most-severe Svartalven penalties.

But I'm not at all confident that (in Jim's Dresdenverse) this is the case.

through might or right, Thomas can't come back without doing so on some level tho.
Skipping out of the grave sword in hand just to be throttled by a svartalf would definitely subvert expectations...

[Mira]

This is pretty much "family life" for all Whampires.

The parents all "set up" their kids, try to make sure that "first feeding" is just teen hormones & body-chemistry (or teenage angst/despair for the Skavis, etc).  A few train them young and ruthless, so they know ahead of time... but that's the exception.

I don't think so, the impression I got from both Lara and Thomas that at puberty it is about choices and there is a more natural process for it.  That's why both of them wanted their little sister away from their father.  Inari still most likely will fail at true love, Jim left that an open question as far as her future was concerned, but it would still be on her own terms.  I think the point of both Thomas and Lara were making was the way their father pushed and tricked them into that first kill was to gain control and power over them, and they didn't want that for their little sister.

[g33k]

I don't think so, the impression I got from both Lara and Thomas that at puberty it is about choices and there is a more natural process for it.

There is a more natural process, yes; I think most Whampires avoid that.

The DF Wiki says so, too:

The tradition of the White Court is to not tell a young potential succubus what they will become, or even anything about the supernatural world. In their childhood and early teens they are raised as a vanilla human. Their first feeding, which is always fatal, comes as a surprise to them, and introduces them into the world of the White Court.

(footnoting this factoid to White Night ch.27; I have not gone back to find the original passage(s) supporting this.)

... That's why both of them wanted their little sister away from their father ...

They did want that; but most whampires want to maintain their familial power.  For all their sexual prowess, whamp-reproduction is a rarity.  Even a small proportion of their children choosing not to become a serial sexual predator would spell doom for any family pursuing such "weakness."

... I think the point of both Thomas and Lara were making was the way their father pushed and tricked them into that first kill was to gain control and power over them, and they didn't want that for their little sister.

Again, I agree.  It's just that Raith père was following the mainstream tradition of House Raith, while Thomas & Lara wanted something better for Inari.


But again:  we are wandering afield from the OP topic (Thomas' actions against the Svartalves, and a "free pass" (or not) for that); @OutsideIn has asked us to stay on-topic.  I don't mind further whamp-centric discussion, but let's spin it off to a new Thread if we do.

[Mira]

  I realize we are going far afield again, but I guess it is all related and there are so few of us now posting.
Anyway....

The DF Wiki says so, too:
Quote

    The tradition of the White Court is to not tell a young potential succubus what they will become, or even anything about the supernatural world. In their childhood and early teens they are raised as a vanilla human. Their first feeding, which is always fatal, comes as a surprise to them, and introduces them into the world of the White Court.

(footnoting this factoid to White Night ch.27; I have not gone back to find the original passage(s) supporting this.)

I just did go back to Chapter 27 of White Night, other than stating that Thomas was hungry and that he tries not to kill, nothing about what the DF Wiki sights.. However in Blood Rites there is, it talks about if Inari is in love she might be able to avoid that first feeding. Even if she cannot avoid it, if she and the young man love one another the Hunger Demon could be killed.
Blood Rites 164-165

page 164, Thomas leaned up against the wall beside my mother's portrait.  He pushed his hair back from his face with one hand.  "She hasn't been taken by her Hunger yet," he said.  "Once she starts feeding it there's no going back.  She'll be like us for the rest of us.  My father is pushing her toward that point.  I want to stop him."
"Why?"
"Because if. . .if she's in love, that first time, it could kill her Hunger.  She'd be free.  I think she is mature enough to be capable of that love now. There's a young man she's all twitterpated about."

That indicates there is a choice if the would be White Court vamp knows before hand.  The reason why the set up for Inari's first feed to be on Harry, she isn't in love with him.. She'd kill him, be hooked.  Also note that timing is important, Thomas states that he thinks Inari is mature enough to experience true love.. So Raith has to set up his daughters before they have a chance to be in love.
page 165
 

Thomas pressed his lips together for a moment and then said.  "If the kid loves her in return, then she could have a life.  She could be free of the kinds of things that---"  His voice broke.  He had to cough before he continued."Things like what happened to Justine.  Like what my father has done to my other sisters."
"What do you mean, done to them?"
"He establishes that he is their superior,  He overpowers them.  Pits his Hunger against theirs."
My stomach twisted.  "You mean he feeds on his own. . ." I couldn't finish the sentence.

So the above establishes a couple of things, 1] once the feeding begins, the would be vampire is toast, a vampire. 2] True love can kill it at this time.  3] Raith did set up his daughters so they had no choice upon whom that first feeding began, so it happened and results in death of the victim. 4] Most importantly Raith sets them up so then he can establish Hunger power over them though incest.  No, I don't think this is standard White Court practice.

[LordDresden2]

  I realize we are going far afield again, but I guess it is all related and there are so few of us now posting.
Anyway....
I just did go back to Chapter 27 of White Night, other than stating that Thomas was hungry and that he tries not to kill, nothing about what the DF Wiki sights.. However in Blood Rites there is, it talks about if Inari is in love she might be able to avoid that first feeding. Even if she cannot avoid it, if she and the young man love one another the Hunger Demon could be killed.
Blood Rites 164-165That indicates there is a choice if the would be White Court vamp knows before hand.  The reason why the set up for Inari's first feed to be on Harry, she isn't in love with him.. She'd kill him, be hooked.  Also note that timing is important, Thomas states that he thinks Inari is mature enough to experience true love.. So Raith has to set up his daughters before they have a chance to be in love.
page 165
 
So the above establishes a couple of things, 1] once the feeding begins, the would be vampire is toast, a vampire. 2] True love can kill it at this time.  3] Raith did set up his daughters so they had no choice upon whom that first feeding began, so it happened and results in death of the victim. 4] Most importantly Raith sets them up so then he can establish Hunger power over them though incest.  No, I don't think this is standard White Court practice.

Not entirely, maybe.  But I'm pretty sure keeping the kids ignorant of their own nature until it's too late is standard procedure, at least in the modern-day Court.  Otherwise, they'd risk losing a lot of young vampires, or having things leak that they want kept in-Court.

Even if you can't plan on Love as a cure, there might be other ways to remove the demon before it fuses with their souls in the first feeding.  If the White Court is going to endure, they can't risk that.