Does Thomas get a free pass?

[OutsideIn]

Just because his babies held hostage in a way... Doesn't give you a free pass to murder. I think Thomas if he survives imprisonment. He'll die a martyr saving the day of some type..
The bill comes due...

[Mira]

Just because his babies held hostage in a way... Doesn't give you a free pass to murder. I think Thomas if he survives imprisonment. He'll die a martyr saving the day of some type..
The bill comes due...

Don't know if Thomas will die a martyr or not, but currently he isn't getting a free pass for his crime.  My theory is that somehow the Hunger demon will be  sperated from him while he is imprisoned and he will end as a ordinary vanilla human. 

[OutsideIn]

Wouldn't it be crazy if Thomas died saving Ebenezer...

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Thomas was the tool and Nemesis the true instigator of the attack on the Swartalves, it is Nemesis whom they have the beef with, we saw this in Bombshells.

[g33k]

Thomas was the tool and Nemesis the true instigator of the attack on the Swartalves, it is Nemesis whom they have the beef with, we saw this in Bombshells.

Only Thomas & Harry (and Nemesis (and maybe Justine (if she's even in there anymore)) know this.

At one point in PT (I think, though maybe it was BG?) it was announced that Winter wouldn't be able to bring most of their forces to hit Ethniu & the Fomor armies, as they were needed to defend a major assault on the Outer Gates.  Harry remarked that it was interesting to notice which parties reacted with awareness of exactly what that coordination implied, and which seemed oblivious.

We don't know if the Svartalves understand about the Outer gates, and/or Outsiders in general, and/or Nemesis in particular... I wouldn't bet against them, but AFAIK they've always been noted as tough/dangerous and as skilled crafters (in comparison, e.g., to Mab & Odin & Nicodemus, all of whom are noted as vastly more-dangerous (than their already extreme danger) because of how much they know).

So, even if Harry tried to tell Etri "It was Nemesis," that might not get Thomas off the hook with the Svartalf sense of justice/honor.

[Mira]

At one point in PT (I think, though maybe it was BG?) it was announced that Winter wouldn't be able to bring most of their forces to hit Ethniu & the Fomor armies, as they were needed to defend a major assault on the Outer Gates.  Harry remarked that it was interesting to notice which parties reacted with awareness of exactly what that coordination implied, and which seemed oblivious.

The thought occurred to me reading your post that none of this appears to be spontaneous, and has the smell and look of an inside job, years in the making.  What I am wondering is whether or not Maeve did a lot more damage than even Mab thought while she was possessed by Nemesis?  What took place in Cold Days was plan [A], but is it possible that Maeve was enough like her mother that she'd also have a plan in place?  Plan being what took place in Peace Talks and Battle Ground, plans that were already set into motion whether or not Maeve survived plan [A].

[vincentric]

There was a plan in both books, but it was all a Nemesis plot. Maeve was just a willing tool until she was takenoff the board in Cold Days, then Nemesis shifted to Justine.

[g33k]

The thought occurred to me reading your post that none of this appears to be spontaneous, and has the smell and look of an inside job, years in the making.  What I am wondering is whether or not Maeve did a lot more damage than even Mab thought while she was possessed by Nemesis?  What took place in Cold Days was plan [A], but is it possible that Maeve was enough like her mother that she'd also have a plan in place?  Plan being what took place in Peace Talks and Battle Ground, plans that were already set into motion whether or not Maeve survived plan [A].

The Fomor were... well, to be frank they were stunningly fast to make their power-play at the fall of the Red Court.  The big old powers just don't like to move that fast, but (as per the Murphy-POV story Aftermath) the Fomor appear to have begun their "kidnap the Talented Mortals" plan about the same time that the Red Court took little Maggie.  I conclude that they expected either the Red Court or the White Council to fall, and to then take advantage of whichever power-vacuum occurred.

I presume it was Ethniu's plan all along to have the Fomor be this "troublesome young punk" among the power-players, and arrange for "Peace Talks," and bring the Titanic WMD to a diplomat-fight.

That must have been in the planning stages for years.

I don't think we have any sign Maeve was involved in that side of things.  It has seemed to me that the different instances of Nemesis usually keep their separate initiatives wholly-separate.  Apocalypse, after all, is more a state of mind...

[Mira]

I don't think we have any sign Maeve was involved in that side of things.  It has seemed to me that the different instances of Nemesis usually keep their separate initiatives wholly-separate.  Apocalypse, after all, is more a state of mind...

Except we don't have a clear picture of what Maeve was really up to.  As far as the Former goes, they weren't really a surprise, and remember early on in the books Harry talks of "cat's paws" and powers behind powers.  Yes, the Former were one of them, but it is a bit surprising how easily they were defeated considering..

[g33k]

Except we don't have a clear picture of what Maeve was really up to ...

No, we don't.
It looked like she just wanted to Beat the Queen (defeat -- and impress -- her Mommy Dearest).  There could easily have been more to it than that; it even seems likely.  But we don't know.

There's also the issue of Nemfection -- what was Nemesis up to?  Was Maeve even aware of it?  Maybe all the disruption Maeve caused was the bulk of Nemesis' plan (never really expecting the "jailbreak" to succeed).  Maybe the jailbreak was the main plan, and the murderous Mantle-swap just a last-ditch scramble to salvage something, and an "F-U" aimed personally at Mab.

We just don't know.

...  As far as the Former goes, they weren't really a surprise...

The Fomor were well-known.
I think Ethniu -- and the Eye -- were surprises (at least to most there).

... but it is a bit surprising how easily they were defeated considering.

Remember:  Harry hauled out TWO major artifacts.  These were items that (to Harry's perceptions) outclassed the Swords of the Cross (which apparently have actual Angels in them); so "how easily they were defeated" is "not at all easily."

There is every sign that -- if Harry hadn't had the Spear to pull out at the last minute -- Ethniu and the Fomor would have won.

[Mira]

There is every sign that -- if Harry hadn't had the Spear to pull out at the last minute -- Ethniu and the Fomor would have won.

But without Ethniu would the Fomor even of had a chance? Or rather much of a chance?  She was their bad ass terror weapon with a very nasty eye, without her the Fomor were really quite run of the mill in the Dresdenverse. 

Funny how Harry stumbles into things, needing to face the Senior Council?  Make a bond with the island with no clue of the repercussion of what he is doing, wakes up a couple of books later to discover that he is Warden of a Prison of some of the worst monsters his world has ever seen... And also finds out that he has the power to incarcerate more monsters if need be with in range... Pretty handy for controlling a Titian running amuck.. Reluctantly goes down into the security vault of Hades because Mab owes Nic a favor, happens to find and recognize the Spear of Destiny and a couple of other useful trinkets, which were very useful in dealing with a very nasty Titian a book or so later.. Turns out it was Harry verses the Fomor and Harry verses the Titian, no Harry, the Fomor win.. However I don't think Harry realizes that just yet, at least not fully, but the White Council realizes it, that's what has them pooping their pants and wanting Harry dead.

[forumghost]

I mean, Thomas is going to spend an indeterminate amount of time on Hell Island reliving everything he did to his victims. If anything, he's being overly-punished and anyone that finds out is gonna think that Dresden has absolutely zero chill.

But without Ethniu would the Fomor even of had a chance? Or rather much of a chance?  She was their bad ass terror weapon with a very nasty eye, without her the Fomor were really quite run of the mill in the Dresdenverse.

Like, you say that, but apparently these rejects and outcasts have been literally shitting all over every faction in the Dresden Files for literally years at this point, doing whatever they want without any response because reasons, with no Titan in site until Peace Talks.

The entire reason they even had the Peace Talks is because the Formor were shit-stomping all the Accorded Nations simultaneously. Somehow.

[Mira]

I mean, Thomas is going to spend an indeterminate amount of time on Hell Island reliving everything he did to his victims. If anything, he's being overly-punished and anyone that finds out is gonna think that Dresden has absolutely zero chill.

Really?  At the end of the day regardless of his motive, he allegedly committed murder.  He hasn't had a trial yet, so his punishment hasn't been set.  Currently he is where he is to keep him alive until he can be put on trial.  And yes, Thomas has numerous victims, as a vampire he did kill.. Lara would call them kine, and Thomas is no different than any other predator, an argument can be made for that.  However they were also people, and his last kill had nothing to do with food to survive.

[vincentric]

Whether Thomas faces further punishment upon being cured and released from Demonreach is dependent on how clued in the Swartalves are about Nemesis.

If they're in the know, he may be let off by paying weregild. If not, then it will take significantly more to appease them. At the extreme and short of death, they may insist on Thomas's child being raised by them (Assuming said child can be saved and is free of Nemesis taint.)

[Mira]

Whether Thomas faces further punishment upon being cured and released from Demonreach is dependent on how clued in the Swartalves are about Nemesis.

If they're in the know, he may be let off by paying weregild. If not, then it will take significantly more to appease them. At the extreme and short of death, they may insist on Thomas's child being raised by them (Assuming said child can be saved and is free of Nemesis taint.)

All of that is true, I think it will be more of a question of what becomes of Thomas?  Even if the Swartalves understand and are satisfied with a weregild, what is the effect on Thomas?  Will he become fully human because the island somehow has separated
 out the Hunger Demon and imprisoned it?  Will Thomas still feel guilty?  Will he become obsessed with finding Justine?  What of their child? And what will Lara think or do about any of this?