Great another starborn theory, this time with vampires

[Tinfoil hat]

So starborn have to be sacrificed at the stars and stones right ? RIGHT
Think about it, Lea tells Harry to never let Mab  bring him to the altar. And repeats it again in Changes. I don’t think that warning is about him becoming the Winter knight.
There is an old WOJ that Drakul is something inhuman stuffed in a human body. And he is a starborn. Hold that thought.
There is a theory going around that the Red King and Pa Wraith are also starborn. Evidence for this is a) for Pa Wraith the outsider protection thing he has. According to the theory he was a starborn of a previous cycle. Hence his expertise on starborn. He was sacrificed and came back with something extra. The defense thing he has.
As for the Red King his entire motif just gives outsider vibes. Lord of the outer night. Anyone?
Back to Dresden. In the BAT, the Winter Queen has to sacrifice a Starborn. To keep reality going.  Hence she takes Harry to the altar and sacrifices him. The he comes back an  immortal with something stuffed inside him. This would explain Mab’s advice from BG.
This can explain why Mab wants Harry to kill Molly. She won’t be able to kill Harry a second time this soon.
It also explains a lot of things such as why Harry keeps getting things that whisper in his head. First Lash and now the mantle. Its Uriel helping to prepare Harry for whats to come.
The question becomes whats going to come back with Harry.
But remember that just a Theory a Conspiracy Theory

[Mira]

  Hasn't Harry already come back?  At the end of Changes when he was shot, he was mostly dead, very close to all dead.. He was already Winter Knight when he took that bullet through the heart, would have died then and there on the deck, but fell into the very cold lake before he bled out and into Mab's arms. Hmmm... Wonder if Uriel had anything to do with him stumbling over the side into the water after he was shot?

Yes, I agree, Uriel has had a lot to do with preparing Harry for what is to come.  That was the whole point of the risky soul walk about, and Harry came back with a better understanding of what soul fire really is as we saw in Cold Days.  He also learned how to keep the darker impulses of the Winter Knight mantle under control.  However the White Council doesn't know any of this, they are asking the same question you are asking, except not what will come back with him if he dies again, but what came back with him this last time when he "died."

I think Mab's reasons for wanting Molly dead if she dies are a bit different.  Mab is a control freak, and she feels that Molly isn't on the same page as she is. 

[Tinfoil hat]

  Hasn't Harry already come back?  At the end of Changes when he was shot, he was mostly dead, very close to all dead.. He was already Winter Knight when he took that bullet through the heart, would have died then and there on the deck, but fell into the very cold lake before he bled out and into Mab's arms. Hmmm... Wonder if Uriel had anything to do with him stumbling over the side into the water after he was shot?

Yes, I agree, Uriel has had a lot to do with preparing Harry for what is to come.  That was the whole point of the risky soul walk about, and Harry came back with a better understanding of what soul fire really is as we saw in Cold Days.  He also learned how to keep the darker impulses of the Winter Knight mantle under control.  However the White Council doesn't know any of this, they are asking the same question you are asking, except not what will come back with him if he dies again, but what came back with him this last time when he "died."

I think Mab's reasons for wanting Molly dead if she dies are a bit different.  Mab is a control freak, and she feels that Molly isn't on the same page as she is. 

The idea is that this time Mab/ the Winter Queen will sacrifice him in a ritual. And he dies as in D-E-D. Died. GONE and then comes back with an outsider inside his now immortal body.
In this case if Harry lets it take control he becomes a Monster with a Captail M for emphasis.

[Mira]

The idea is that this time Mab/ the Winter Queen will sacrifice him in a ritual. And he dies as in D-E-D. Died. GONE and then comes back with an outsider inside his now immortal body.
In this case if Harry lets it take control he becomes a Monster with a Captail M for emphasis.

  Only problem with that is Mab is fighting Outsiders.  So why would she sacrifice Harry to have him come back possessed by an Outsider?

[Tinfoil hat]

  Only problem with that is Mab is fighting Outsiders.  So why would she sacrifice Harry to have him come back possessed by an Outsider?

Ah that the catch. Magic always has a price.
A starborn is sacrificed to keep the outsiders out but in exchange he/ she brings something back with him.
Plus dolist reason it would mess Harry up. Jim is that much of a bastard to do it

[Mira]

Ah that the catch. Magic always has a price.
A starborn is sacrificed to keep the outsiders out but in exchange he/ she brings something back with him.
Plus dolist reason it would mess Harry up. Jim is that much of a bastard to do it

Somehow I don't think he'd do that to Harry, he has too many other ways..

[g33k]

There is a theory going around that the Red King and Pa Wraith are also starborn.

"Going around..." where?
Haven't seen it here.

... Evidence for this is a) for Pa Wraith the outsider protection thing he has. According to the theory he was a starborn of a previous cycle. Hence his expertise on starborn. He was sacrificed and came back with something extra. The defense thing he has.

Pretty sure it's wrong for Raith Père -- think I read WoJ stating that he just this cycle became aware of the whole "Starborn cycle" / Outsider thing, & decided he wanted to become a power-player, acting-upon instead of acted-upon... that's why he has such a substantive library:  he was educating himself.

... As for the Red King his entire motif just gives outsider vibes. Lord of the outer night. Anyone? ...

But it's not just the RK -- his inner circle was the "Lords of the Outer Night" (I call them LOONs)
That said, "Outsiders" and "Outer Night" may just be coincidental, or may not be -- I'm very suspicious of this, myself!  I do tend to think there's a connection, though I'm not absolutely convinced of one.

We also have the WoJ that the LOONs got so powerful because they actually were able to capture (and addict to their venom) the beings that the Mayans had been worshiping as gods.

I think the Ramp's are creatures of the Nevernever, natively; I note several similarities in the descriptions of the native-form (without fleshmask) Ramps, and the Ick... and suspect them of being related entities.

I think some long-ago Maya (or maybe Olmec... or even older) sorceror was exploring the deep Nevernever and got possessed -- or maybe summoned one, and got attacked/infected; thus becoming the Red King.  IIRC WoJ says the Red King was about 6K years old...?

How all of that might play into an Outsider connection escapes me; maybe one (or both) of my theories is wrong, or maybe it's as simple as Ramp entities being every bit as susceptible to Outsider influence/possession as humans are...

... It also explains a lot of things such as why Harry keeps getting things that whisper in his head. First Lash and now the mantle. Its Uriel helping to prepare Harry for whats to come. 

I think Lash & the mantle are both training-up Harry's willpower, yes!
But we've already seen that many Outsiders use psychic attacks, I don't think we need to look for another "possession" in the BAT:  I bet Harry has to face off against multiple psychic Outsider attacks at one time.

[Mira]

I think Lash & the mantle are both training-up Harry's willpower, yes!
But we've already seen that many Outsiders use psychic attacks, I don't think we need to look for another "possession" in the BAT:  I bet Harry has to face off against multiple psychic Outsider attacks at one time.

 You touch on the main power that starborn Harry has over Outsiders I believe, he has been able to counter their psychic attacks on him to some extent.  I think that ability will grow as the series goes on.  That is the power he has over Outsiders that Lash was alluding to in White Night, and what Harry was remembering in Ghost Story, i.e. his sixteen year old self doing a Peewee Herman response to HWWB's attack.

[KurtinStGeorge]

I think the Ramp's are creatures of the Nevernever, natively; I note several similarities in the descriptions of the native-form (without fleshmask) Ramps, and the Ick... and suspect them of being related entities.

It appears that after writing Storm Front Jim retconned the Red Court.  In SF, Harry mentions that vampires are creatures of the Nevernever and that it takes most of their energy to simply maintain themselves on the mortal plane.  I don’t remember if this was after Harry had his run-in with Bianca or if this bit of exposition occurred before that point in the story, but she was the only vampire we meet in SF, so Jim; through Harry, told us the Red Court are native to the Nevernever.

However, this bit about vampires being native to the Nevernever has never been mentioned again.  It really doesn’t make sense anyway.  The Red Court were once humans who got half-turned until they killed someone and went full Rampire.  Maybe whatever created the Red King was native to the Nevernever, but since that time all the members of the Red Court were humans that had been turned.  If a member of the Red Court could infect a non-human, we haven’t seen one or been told it was possible to do.

[Mira]

However, this bit about vampires being native to the Nevernever has never been mentioned again.  It really doesn’t make sense anyway.  The Red Court were once humans who got half-turned until they killed someone and went full Rampire.  Maybe whatever created the Red King was native to the Nevernever, but since that time all the members of the Red Court were humans that had been turned.  If a member of the Red Court could infect a non-human, we haven’t seen one or been told it was possible to do.

Though it might explain why Lea was able to put to sleep Susan's vampire side, though only for a little bit..  Or I seem to remember her doing it and it gave Harry hope which she swiftly dashed.. My memory of this is vague though.

[The_Sibelis]

So, the meta experience on this is vampire courts equivalent of seven sins. I fathom each court was brought in by their originator as a causality of choice in one of the 7(it's been theorized which would be which in the past here, can't remember all of them) mainly born from Jim picking an arbitrary number like 7 specifically for the courts but then only fleshing out the 3-4 major ones he had actual plans for.
So, sorta like demons they technically have a place in reality, though they have real bodies they are not actually welcome here. Bad housemates, Dresden evicted some for us lol.

[g33k]

...However, this bit about vampires being native to the Nevernever has never been mentioned again.  It really doesn’t make sense anyway.  The Red Court were once humans who got half-turned until they killed someone and went full Rampire.  Maybe whatever created the Red King was native to the Nevernever, but since that time all the members of the Red Court were humans that had been turned.

Cite, please?  I don't recall this, at all -- that the Red Court was ever composed of half-turned.

The Red King and all the LOON's were full-Ramp, and AFAIK have been so for a long time -- long enough ago that they were well-established as rulers in Mesoamerica when Cortez arrived.

I recall WoJ that they got so powerful by somehow using their venom to addict entities previously worshipped as gods by mesoamericans, and drain that power to use for themselves.

... If a member of the Red Court could infect a non-human, we haven’t seen one or been told it was possible to do.

I don't recall this, either.

[g33k]

Though it might explain why Lea was able to put to sleep Susan's vampire side, though only for a little bit..  Or I seem to remember her doing it and it gave Harry hope which she swiftly dashed.. My memory of this is vague though.

Harry got home to find Lea having put Susan and Martin to sleep, by way of sleeping their "Hunger spirits"  (if I recall the phrase correctly).
Harry asked how she did it, and Lea indicated it was very rare & precious information, and offered to bargain for it... which immediately made Harry suspect he couldn't afford Lea's price.

[Mira]

Harry got home to find Lea having put Susan and Martin to sleep, by way of sleeping their "Hunger spirits"  (if I recall the phrase correctly).
Harry asked how she did it, and Lea indicated it was very rare & precious information, and offered to bargain for it... which immediately made Harry suspect he couldn't afford Lea's price.

That's more or less how I remember it, but the way I remember it was that it wasn't about Lea's price in a bargain, but that at best it was just a temporary thing, and not a cure.

[g33k]

... the way I remember it was that it wasn't about Lea's price in a bargain, but that at best it was just a temporary thing, and not a cure.

From memory, Harry didn't advance his questioning (as to Lea's method) far enough to discern this, I think.

My memory, of course, could be faulty.

I believe Bob had asserted that there was no known way to do it (hence, being Harry's assistant as he researched, rather then tutor as he practiced).