Why did Dumorne put the mental whamy on when he did?

[SerScot]

Harry was surprised by Justine’s actions.  He didn’t see something coming it happened in a flash.  Normal when he left…Elaine under the mental whamy when he got home. 

Why?

What changed that made Justin move so suddenly that Harry perceived nothing out of the ordinary until he got home.  That doesn’t sound planned it sounds rushed… desperate.  What happened that prompted Justin to move precipitously rather than slowly put the whamy on Eleane and Harry over time so they didn’t knowit was coming?

We’ve seen that the slow whams are the best.  This was pretty clearly a desperate act.

Discuss.

[Mira]

  We've talked a lot about this of late, and I am wondering if Justin enthralled her at all.  There are a few things that don't add up and it is possible that she was only acting enthralled.

[SerScot]

  We've talked a lot about this of late, and I am wondering if Justin enthralled her at all.  There are a few things that don't add up and it is possible that she was only acting enthralled.

Even if she wasn’t enthralled he was planning to act against Harry.  Why… then?  Why the clumsy action with poor preparation?

[Mira]

Even if she wasn’t enthralled he was planning to act against Harry.  Why… then?  Why the clumsy action with poor preparation?

Over confident perhaps?

[g33k]

...
What changed that made Justin move so suddenly that Harry perceived nothing out of the ordinary until he got home.  That doesn’t sound planned it sounds rushed… desperate.

We’ve seen that the slow whams are the best.  This was pretty clearly a desperate act.

But have we seen that?

I don't think we've seen enough different kinds of Mental Whammy; and wizards, with their highly-versatile magic, probably have multiple kinds of whammy open to them (unlike, say, Ramps or Whamps).  We don't know what Justin was doing.

As Mira says, maybe it wasn't even enthrallment...

Elsethread was posed the question:  what if it was an attempted Nemfection?
Would young-Harry, half-trained and in a panic, have even known the difference?

[Con]

Could be he was ordered or pressured to by The Walker.

He Who Walks Behind set up the whole gas station scene to test and prime Harry into violence. Walkers are major league you can't summon one easily. One just happened to be around at Harry's first true trial?

Might be the walker was already waiting in the wings and dumorne (cough kemmler cough) was under pressure to prepare Harry for it in time.

[Mira]

Elsethread was posed the question:  what if it was an attempted Nemfection?
Would young-Harry, half-trained and in a panic, have even known the difference?

How could he?  Until Harry pushed Titania to name names, he didn't even know Nemesis existed, and Harry is just now learning what it is capable of.  Hind sight is 20/20 and I wouldn't be surprised if Harry revisits what happened that day with fresh eyes knowing what he knows now and will learn in future books.

[vincentric]

Perhaps he got wind of the Leansidhe coming to check up on Harry or even take him away? Justin was a Warden, but I doubt he could have stopped her if she were determined or bound by her deal with Maggie Sr.

[Mira]

Perhaps he got wind of the Leansidhe coming to check up on Harry or even take him away? Justin was a Warden, but I doubt he could have stopped her if she were determined or bound by her deal with Maggie Sr.

Or he underestimated how quick a 16 year old kid can move when he is scared.

[g33k]

Even if she wasn’t enthralled he was planning to act against Harry.  Why… then?  Why the clumsy action with poor preparation?

I don't  think we have enough info.  Furthermore, what info we do have is highly-suspect:  every time Harry recalls the events or has a flashback, we see something very different.  We know harry was right off of a mental trauma, with consequent likely memory-issues.

Could be he was ordered or pressured to by The Walker.

He Who Walks Behind set up the whole gas station scene to test and prime Harry into violence. Walkers are major league you can't summon one easily. One just happened to be around at Harry's first true trial?

Might be the walker was already waiting in the wings and dumorne (cough kemmler cough) was under pressure to prepare Harry for it in time. 

What if it wasn't even communicated / collaborated between Justin & HWWB?  What if Justin wasn't in league with the Walker at all, but detected the Walker's arrival (much as Harry and Eb did the cornerhounds in Peace Talks) then panicked, and tried to force the Starborn wizard(s) to be ready...?

[The_Sibelis]

Even if she wasn’t enthralled he was planning to act against Harry.  Why… then?  Why the clumsy action with poor preparation?

Leah explained it perfectly imo, it's hard to get young wizards to believe in doing magical violence. Both dumorne and behind were more interested in manipulating Harry's choices than actually enthrallment or murder. Behind is shown heavily in book goading Harry(same as Cat Sith later 👀 ) but dumorne? Look at his scenes teaching magic, what he actually taught them. He could have indoctrinated them with their own power, made them believe it worked any which way he desired and connected them to him in a proper cult fashion. None of which he did. What he did was teach it to him pure, almost the same as Eb(I'd bet Eb would have been a harder teacher before failing Margaret), as power and strength, as an art unto itself.
Then he was goaded into two different(?) Battles to the death winning both by... Well, doing Death to the opponent. Seems to me they manipulated him into doing exactly as he did 🤷‍♂️ it's only factoring in Justin's intentions for Elaine that things get muddied.

[Con]

I don't  think we have enough info.  Furthermore, what info we do have is highly-suspect:  every time Harry recalls the events or has a flashback, we see something very different.  We know harry was right off of a mental trauma, with consequent likely memory-issues.

What if it wasn't even communicated / collaborated between Justin & HWWB?  What if Justin wasn't in league with the Walker at all, but detected the Walker's arrival (much as Harry and Eb did the cornerhounds in Peace Talks) then panicked, and tried to force the Starborn wizard(s) to be ready...?

Yeah that could be it. It certainly seemed rushed after raising a pair of kids for 6 years.

[SerScot]

Leah explained it perfectly imo, it's hard to get young wizards to believe in doing magical violence. Both dumorne and behind were more interested in manipulating Harry's choices than actually enthrallment or murder. Behind is shown heavily in book goading Harry(same as Cat Sith later 👀 ) but dumorne? Look at his scenes teaching magic, what he actually taught them. He could have indoctrinated them with their own power, made them believe it worked any which way he desired and connected them to him in a proper cult fashion. None of which he did. What he did was teach it to him pure, almost the same as Eb(I'd bet Eb would have been a harder teacher before failing Margaret), as power and strength, as an art unto itself.
Then he was goaded into two different(?) Battles to the death winning both by... Well, doing Death to the opponent. Seems to me they manipulated him into doing exactly as he did 🤷‍♂️ it's only factoring in Justin's intentions for Elaine that things get muddied.

Agreed.  What changed… for Dumorne to see a need to change his methods?

[SerScot]

Yeah that could be it. It certainly seemed rushed after raising a pair of kids for 6 years.

Indeed… that is what prompted my question.

[g33k]

I'll re-introduce my own WAG here... part of which is that Justin isn't (necessarily(*)) the "evil wizard" Harry thinks he is.

He's "old-school" and harsh, for sure... fastball baseballs as shield-training, &c.  But the mover & shaker in this was Mab(**).

She knew the Starborn Cycle was cresting, and that Outsiders would be making a special push.  Mab wanted a Starborn as Knight (and likely in other roles too), so she "arranged" for Maggie LeFay to:

• "discover" the Starborn cycle & hints of a "starbabe"plan
• "accidentally" meet the Leanansidhe on multiple occasions, sufficient for Maggie to think of Lea when she needed a protector for Harry

Then she stepped in when Malcolm died, to hide Harry from everyone searching (foreshadowed, story-wise, by Morgan being anti-scry'ed by Summer)... until Harry's gifts showed, and it was time to get him trained.

Then -- and this is where it gets relevant to this thread -- she got Justin to do the training (either by tricking him, or as repayment for debts-incurred); note how Justin's "harsh" training was often thematically-similar to a "Winter"-driven harsh training.


(*) Critical counter-datum on the "Justin is evil" front:  taking Kemmler's "EvilBob lab-assistant" skull as his own, hiding it from the WC (***)
(**) Mab and/or her handmaid, Lea

(***) On the third hand, I'll introduce another WAG -- Bob isn't really "afraid" of Mab/Winter; he's an active _agent_ of Winter, one of Mab's spies amongst mortal wizards / the White Council.  Justin, in this analysis, rescued the skull on the orders of Mab (much as Harry got the Word of Kemmer on Mavra's orders):  Mab got the skull to Justin so that he could get it to Maggie's Starbabe (which plan was already underway at the time of the final Kemmler-fight) in a way that didn't even hint at a faerie affiliation.