Is Mab autistic?

[g33k]

Bear with me here...  There's the whole "high function" end of the autism spectrum (Aspergers/etc).  From the outside, this often looks nothing like what mainstream folks think of as "autism."

These people can be very, very bright, and not just in a limited "idiot-savant" manner.  Genius-level and even "super" genius level bright.  Articulate, clever, deeply insightful.  They can make&execute deep strategic plans.  They can display an awesome grasp of a broad range of topics, synthesizing ideas from multiple domains.

But still with some mental/emotional limits.  In particular, they tend to be poor at reading social cues, understanding social situations.  They can be precise where the situation calls for more fluidity & fuzziness; literal where there's need to be more figurative or metaphorical.

And lo:  we have the Unseelie Accords, where "there is no spirit of the law, only the letter."

Mab is absolutely masterful at manipulating people by walking the knife-edge of literality, while those all around her fall into the figurative chasms immediately adjacent.

So... is Mab (high-functioning (very high functioning!)) autistic?

[Mira]

So... is Mab (high-functioning (very high functioning!)) autistic?

 She could be, then again maybe one has to act like one to be a Fae Queen.  I think it could go
either way, but we need more information about her before she took up the life that ultimately led to her taking up the mantle of the Winter Queen.

[g33k]

 She could be, then again maybe on has to act like one to be a Fae Queen...

Another thought I had:  maybe one of the side-effects of the WQ-Mantle might push the bearer towards autism-like behaviors.

Harry and Molly are (so far) mostly resisting the worst of their Mantles' impulses... but Mab has been subject to hers for about a thousand years, we think...

[Mira]

Another thought I had:  maybe one of the side-effects of the WQ-Mantle might push the bearer towards autism-like behaviors.

Harry and Molly are (so far) mostly resisting the worst of their Mantles' impulses... but Mab has been subject to hers for about a thousand years, we think...

 It might be interesting to study Lea's behavior, she doesn't have a mantle, but she is Fae. My impression of her, and now I will have to go back and look for it to be sure, but I think she has a lot of the same impulses that Mab has.  The Fae are not human as the Mothers pointed out to Harry back in Cold Days.  So while the tendencies of Mab may look autistic to us, that is a human diagnosis for human behavior which might be totally normal in a Fae Queen.

The only real information we have on how it feels to be a vessel of a mantel is what Harry says he is going through as Winter Knight.  The affect on him has been hyper-aggressiveness which can be a problem until he figured out that heavy exercise can burn off the excessive testosterone/epinephrine
jolts to his system to a more manageable level.  I have to reread what Molly says about it, if anything, but it appears that the Lady and Queen mantels run on a different system.

[The_Sibelis]

might push the bearer towards autism-like behaviors.

Harry and Molly are (so far) mostly resisting the worstof their Mantles' impulses

it seems your directly and intentionally taking the viewpoint that there is inherently something wrong with autistic people?
Cease. This. Rudeness. At once.
It's hardly a bad thing that I can tell you with absolute certainty

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Harry not only gets the black staff but puts it in the hat Eb got from LTW to wear 'the black hat' mantle, 😂

I don't lambaste others for not seeing the things I can. However, when I'm obviously being insulted reminding people just how smart and insightful I truly am is FUN.

[Snark Knight]

Another thought I had:  maybe one of the side-effects of the WQ-Mantle might push the bearer towards autism-like behaviors.

I think that more likely the case.  The Queen mantles are almost a set of programming, augmenting and in many cases driving or even compelling the host's mental processes.  Look at how Molly said she'd have no choice but take the personal debt Harry was incurring getting her help with the decoy construct to fool Ebenezar fully seriously.  She meant, literally, no choice.

[Mira]

I think that more likely the case.  The Queen mantles are almost a set of programming, augmenting and in many cases driving or even compelling the host's mental processes.  Look at how Molly said she'd have no choice but take the personal debt Harry was incurring getting her help with the decoy construct to fool Ebenezar fully seriously.  She meant, literally, no choice.

That's why I think it is important to also study Lea's behavior as a control..  Remember it was the debt deal that sixteen year old Harry made with Lea that got him stuck where he is now eventually as Winter Knight.  I don't think the debt thing has anything to do with the Queen or Lady's mantle, it is more of a Fae thing.

[g33k]

it seems your directly and intentionally taking the viewpoint that there is inherently something wrong with autistic people?
Cease. This. Rudeness. At once.

That was not my intention; please accept my apology.

Note that I separated the conceptual elements -- different paragraphs.

What I meant by the "worst" of their mantles' impulses is the elements that might push them to be the most unlike their own native selves.  Bob said the Ladymantle would change a mortal within a few years... "welcome to the new Maeve, same as the old Maeve."  I could have said "strongest" or "most dramatic" or etc; but given the idea that the Mantles may change people, I stand by the use of "worst" -- in the sense of stripping away their self and/or free will.  So far as I have seen, the WK-Mantle doesn't seem to push Harry towards any behaviors or thought-patterns I'd have called "autistic," nor the Ladymantle push Molly that way (but we haven't seen nearly as much of Lady Molly; so I don't feel we know).

Mab, OTOH... well, see the OP.

But Mab has been subjected to her Mantle's impulses for so long, we can't really know how much is her (vs. the WQ-Mantle).  Is it the Mantle, or Mab?  Or was Mab given the Mantle because she already inclined that way; that mortal-Mab was already WQ-like?

And is it "something like" autism, what I'm seeing in Mab?  I do feel there's a strong case to be made that it's so.

[The_Sibelis]

What I meant by the "worst" of their mantles' impulses is the elements that might push them to be the most unlike their own native selves.  Bob said the Ladymantle would change a mortal within a few years... "welcome to the new Maeve, same as the old Maeve.
And is it "something like" autism, what I'm seeing in Mab?  I do feel there's a strong case to be made that it's so.

apologies accepted.
And I'll split the difference for you and why it works that way probably.
The WK mantle makes the subconscious louder. The Shadow as described by Yung. It forces the wearer to incorporate his shadow into his conscious mindset or be overwhelmed by it.
This is by and large to make it easier to resist Nemesis, who specifically forms herself to that subconscious part and tries to trick you into thinking it's yourself.
The ladies and queens less so. Haven't quite figured out the ladies mantles as completely except to surmise the true purpose of the lady and knight is... Slightly more than copulation. Something that requires a magic they're denied as fae. Same thing that made Bonnie.
The queens don't have the same issue as the knights because they're each others shadows. Mab is the dark shadow of Titania given purpose and power in reality to deny Nemesis access to the shadow of either. It's why their balance is so important. Anything imbalanced gives Nemesis wiggle room.(off topic but I think the reason the Eldest mantles are all suspect to nfection is by design, they are the broken down aspects of the 9 part soul, the Greek muses. Eldest Gruff, with his ability to make tragedy make sense to Titania is a shoe in for the muse of tragedy, and if my theory he's in fact" ole billy goat Shakespeare" is true that'd make a lot of sense.)well, I forgot my original thread but
This differs entirely from autism, which is by and large a problem of the manifestation of consciousness, which is something that is more a sum of its parts. Imagine a holographic projector projecting the death star. The projector is the brain and the projection is the consciousness. Now imagine the projector is wired wrong. It still projects the death star, but everything projected is out of place. The projection still has all the functionality of the death star, big it doesn't look the same. It doesn't connect the same way so it's processing to get to the same outcomes is entirely different.
Consciousness is a relatively new evolution not entirely understood. I think personally autists are simply a variant of that evolution. Instead of following the Zen path of being Woke in the moment(which leads to overload) they must instead learn to program their own subroutines(which is where there is some overlap with how the mantles work)so it matters not if they're there in the moment. The subconscious Shadow has already been mastered and incorporated to do your bidding and to kick the red alert up to the conscious mind when it has an error code.
As far as if Mab was born autistic.. I'd look to Molly for the answer, who's thoughts work almost the same already. The issue is defining what or why. Autists tend to have an imbalance in the five kinds of intellect but it's usually the males who have social issues and females with shall we say 'ditzy' effects usually played off under other stereotypes like cheerleader or Blondy.
Molly though highly empathic doesn't hold for most usual indicators. An that by itself isn't one, because it's proven to be a trauma response. Autists who grow up in nice safe places of support like Michael's house don't tend to overdevelop their intuitive ability as a defensive measure to survive the presence of evil.
*Addendum. To address why the new lady will be the same as the old lady, ECT. Has to do with the mantles holding memory/being empowered by the wearer while subsuming them. You can't change the mantles without throwing yourself into them, your soul fire. It's why Molly, who's made choices as Molly that have directly effected the mantle has lost so much of herself already. There's wiggle room. But the ladies and the queens are the ghostly identities, the mantles of other being. You can only wear a mask for so long before you become it. Note, Harry has never had this issue, the mantle was refashioned through the table, cleansing it, specifically so she could remold it to Harry himself.

**Very very old theory.. but winter is the subconscious, summer the super ego, the eldest the separate parts of the soul/9 muses of the personal soul, ect.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Jim just answered a question about the Jade Court which probably applies to Mab.  Jim said that members of Jade Court behave in a manner that might appear to be autistic, but not exactly.  The reason it may apply to Mab is Jim said it's just the way that creatures who are functionally immortal keep themselves sane.  They wrap themselves in ritual, performing specific behaviors.  I think in the Jade Court's case this behavior is exacerbated by the fact that their particular culture is so insular to begin with.

This might explain why Mab told Harry that he should kill Molly if Mab died during the events in Battle Ground.  Molly doesn't perform the kind of behaviors that Mab has become accustomed to doing to function as an immortal.  However, it's possible that Mab is wrong, that Molly has just found a different way to adjust to the pressure of being immortal.  I suppose that is a question for a different thread and probably one that cannot be answered until sometime in the future. 

Here's a link to the exact quote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRcj4gvGXKI
The question starts at about 32:30 into the talk

[Mira]

Jim just answered a question about the Jade Court which probably applies to Mab.  Jim said that members of Jade Court behave in a manner that might appear to be autistic, but not exactly.  The reason it may apply to Mab is Jim said it's just the way that creatures who are functionally immortal keep themselves sane.  They wrap themselves in ritual, performing specific behaviors.  I think in the Jade Court's case this behavior is exacerbated by the fact that their particular culture is so insular to begin with.

This might explain why Mab told Harry that he should kill Molly if Mab died during the events in Battle Ground.  Molly doesn't perform the kind of behaviors that Mab has become accustomed to doing to function as an immortal.  However, it's possible that Mab is wrong, that Molly has just found a different way to adjust to the pressure of being immortal.  I suppose that is a question for a different thread and probably one that cannot be answered until sometime in the future. 

Here's a link to the exact quote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRcj4gvGXKI
The question starts at about 32:30 into the talk

It makes sense, neither the Fae or the Jade Court are human, they are not mortals even if they appear that way, thus their behavior cannot be judged as mortals judge mortal behavior.  It does get tricky in cases like Mab, because she once was a mortal.  As Mother Winter says with disgust, "she is a romantic," meaning in my opinion that she believes that Mab's judgement is sometimes influenced by what little human or mortal that is left in her.  However Mab has worn a Fae mantel for so long she is 99.999% Fae now,views the world and reacts to the world mostly as a Fae, thus to mortals her behavior appears to be autistic..

Mother Summer tries to explain what ties and the divides mortals and the Fae to Harry in Cold Days pages 326-327

" You are endlessly fascinating.  We conceive our children with mortals.  We move and sway in time to the mortal seasons.  We dance to mortal music, we make our homes like mortal dwellings, feast upon mortal foods. We find parts of ourselves becoming more like them, and yet we are not like them.  Many of the things they think and feel, and a great many of their actions, are inexplicable to us."

Harry doesn't say it, but mortals can return the favor, much of what the Fae think, feel, and actions are inexplicable to mortals... Thus while some mortals may view Mab's behavior as being autistic, in the end she is just behaving like a Fae.

[g33k]

... Nemesis, who specifically forms herself to that subconscious part and tries to trick you into thinking it's yourself ...

We've seen some other baddies with this trick.  The Whampire whispering despair in Elaine's mind... the Fallen whispering "all your fault" in Harry's.  Trying to pretend it was their own voices.

And the general "anger issues" Harry was having with the Shadow, pre-Sheila; I think that's part&parcel with the method.

Maybe Nemesis works that way; but I don't think we know, not for sure.  But... I'm slightly-inclined to think not, honestly.

We've seen the "conflicted" model, e.g. when Lea was flashing back and forth between Nemesis-dominated and her own impulses; or when Harry tried to get Cat Sith to break free.

We've seen fully-dominated, with Justine.

We don't really know what we saw with Maeve, or Aurora:  were they being "tricked into thinking it was themselves"?  Were they in the "fully-dominated" category?  Or were they actively & knowingly partnering with Nemesis?

We know Nemesis is subtle, in the "hard for an observer to detect" ways; but we don't know the details of how it approaches & interacts with hosts.

I don't think we've ever seen someone acting "puzzled" about why they did a thing, except a few times from the inside when Harry was realizing he'd had his brain bent (by Mab, or Lasciel's Shadow).

[The_Sibelis]

We've seen some other baddies with this trick.  The Whampire whispering despair in Elaine's mind... the Fallen whispering "all your fault" in Harry's.  Trying to pretend it was their own voices.

And the general "anger issues" Harry was having with the Shadow, pre-Sheila; I think that's part&parcel with the method.

Maybe Nemesis works that way; but I don't think we know, not for sure.  But... I'm slightly-inclined to think not, honestly.

mmm, why? Don't remember the original basis, but the current model is from woj about Thomas having a coin and the fact his demon would get the short end of the stick on feeding since they largely occupy the same place in him,
That place would be the mirror, which sets part of why I think the denarians are specifically designed to deny Nemesis power inside reality. The fallen hold the same mirror, representative of the the shadow/subconscious as nemesis seeks to aligned with to reach through  and use the same chaotic/apocalyptic power to feed on.

We've seen the "conflicted" model, e.g. when Lea was flashing back and forth between Nemesis-dominated and her own impulses; or when Harry tried to get Cat Sith to break free.

We've seen fully-dominated, with Justine.

We don't really know what we saw with Maeve, or Aurora:  were they being "tricked into thinking it was themselves"?  Were they in the "fully-dominated" category?  Or were they actively & knowingly partnering with Nemesis?

mmm, and I for some of this look at GP and most of the original talking head moments on possession. Lea for instance acts alot like an addict, and I think Jim mad intentional parallel to how Bilbo behaves in LotR. Drunk with power and trying to quit it.
For Aurora I suspect both,  she'd made a deal but it doesn't explain a lot about the context of it or who actually set the price. I suspect she knew the consequences of her actions but truly thought it would bring a better world by breaking the cycle. She, like Molly does later, made a promise to herself basically. But... she shouldn't have had that bit of power to change still.. It was never Nemesis she thought she was dealing with... Only Elaine and her emotions at being stranded within the fae courts rubbing off on her.  Wizard auras aren't usually strong enough, but what about prolonged exposure to a starborn aura? I think it in itself can elicit change, that Nemesis can take advantage of in creatures specifically designed not to change like the fae.
Cat Sith.. I think Harry opened him to change, and Mab already knew it would. Harry also did something Mab took a possible eternity to do with Lea in minutes.
Justine, is also explained under the lens of possession. WCV's are addicting and she not only basically overdosed but had most of her soul ripped right out with it. It left her vulnerable to possession as would be.
As far as why Justine? Nemesis has a thing for young powerful and mentally unstable(another will weakener) females. My guess is this is her truest possible mirrored form as Nemesis the Name would imply. She has seemingly gone after Lydia, Molly, Justine, Ivy and perhaps im forgetting one or two 🤔 not counting the Sidhe, most of which shes dominated more successfully than say, Sith.

We know Nemesis is subtle, in the "hard for an observer to detect" ways; but we don't know the details of how it approaches & interacts with hosts.

I don't think we've ever seen someone acting "puzzled" about why they did a thing, except a few times from the inside when Harry was realizing he'd had his brain bent (by Mab, or Lasciel's Shadow).

and I'm supplanting that my wall of weird linked together does explain this.
Fate/Soul/luck/active-creation/Wizardy is where Nemesis hangs. If something seems to be a part of yourself, of your own soul or how you've decided to change to be... You wouldn't expect it or think twice huh? We can linearly look at the parallel of how Peabody operated. It nudges you, makes certain thoughts louder. Gets you to make your own choices, Create as you act.(deep parallel here with how magic makes you "more of what you are") eventually that fundemantally changes who you are over time, and as the mirror comes more into focus they have more purchase through it. I don't think she's focusing the mirror just for herself tho, but for her cohorts to have vessels to claim.
Fae, who are Spirit and Body without soul except the bearer, any change in who they are is self apparent quicker with reflection, if caught quickly or not overpowered by change(transmogrify?!?)
Back to Lea tho, and this is the first time plotting this part together.. I account Morgana as being the Arthurian version of Nemesis, and perhaps the most recent physical one.(she's now Mavra I think, but different story)
Leah holds the mantle of the lady of the lake(citation DB summoning intentions) now,  something in some stories attributed it as Morgana..

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insert possible convergent timelines theory or light/shadow interplay of fae beings to maintain balance being upset

l think between it being Morganna's athema and her holding said mantle was enough to align the mirror for a direct take over attempt. But, like with Sith she didn't take over immediately. It wasn't until she went to confront mab that Mab forced the possession by reasoning with the real Leah still left.

[Mira]

We don't really know what we saw with Maeve, or Aurora:  were they being "tricked into thinking it was themselves"?  Were they in the "fully-dominated" category?  Or were they actively & knowingly partnering with Nemesis?

 I agree, especially in the case of Aurora, we don't really know, because we never saw her before she was infected.  Actually though we have guessed that she was, there is nothing at least in the books that confirm that she was.  Is there a WOJ out there that confirms it?  In the case of Maeve it is almost as sketchy, when we first meet her in Mac's bar I think it was in Summer Knight, she appears sane.. Or sane compared to how she acts as the series moves on.  I believe that Nemesis does take advantage of the weakness in the being it infects and is let in by that being. I also don't think there are set rules, while I find it hard to believe that Maeve was tricked, I think it very possible that Justine was.

[The_Sibelis]

I agree, especially in the case of Aurora, we don't really know, because we never saw her before she was infected.  Actually though we have guessed that she was, there is nothing at least in the books that confirm that she was.  Is there a WOJ out there that confirms it?

yep. Don't ask me to produce it. It's not pertinent to me or mine and I don't feel like the extra work.

In the case of Maeve it is almost as sketchy, when we first meet her in Mac's bar I think it was in Summer Knight, she appears sane.. Or sane compared to how she acts as the series moves on.

based on what we've learned, Maeve had been shirking her duties for centuries. it's not until Nemfection she can actively act against those duties. Before that she's simply being Fae while trying to fight the mantles duty. Coincidentally, just like Aurora she doesn't act "crazy" she acts human. Petty, selfish, jealous outpouring of emotional angst not based on the mantle but on the identity underneath.(another cluebat to be found with Molly. She still has enough of her human left[any will do] Nemesis is a very real threat to her mind)

I believe that Nemesis does take advantage of the weakness in the being it infects and is let in by that being. I also don't think there are set rules,

whew do i have news for you! Might wanna go back and reread and listen to all those interviews and pay particular attention to say, the three man panel describing how to set up magic systems. This is the same kinda thinking behind Jim's too lazy to have plotted it out. That's the exact opposite of the truth of the DF and I can prove it on any world building 👀
 

While I find it hard to believe that Maeve was tricked, I think it very possible that Justine was.

🤷‍♂️  if solving for N, repeatedly gets the same conclusion then N in the equation has a definite answer. And just like say, quantum physics and Einsteins work, if you can use that solution to consistently define things

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neat connection when yggrasil was formed out of the timeline, that's how I've already previously explained the infinite expanding dresdenverse based on choice, with Uriel as Gardener/pruner of dead timelines. Thought is it's own school you know

Y'all say you're not sure how Nemesis works or this connects or that's not aligned with DF meta rules and i say, i have invented the theory of relativity and supposite the existence of dark matter.
Now, dark matter might only BE a theory, but it's a theory that holds together through mathematical testing that readily allows physicists to computate real world math that can accurately predict planetary movements.
That's why people actually challenging my theory and not just naysaying it is so important to me. I can and have accurately described events not yet passed that have come to be and can otherwise show direct evidence for said theories coming to direct fruitation. Al la for instance, Harry killing Susan allows for a direct parallel to Nico's actions in killing his daughter so much so that going into the DF under the theory of repeating timeline/paths and shadows you can actually predict Nico's future actions based on nothing else. You can accurately make the prediction Cowl is alt Harry based on Nic being the precise inversed mirror of Harry too, because what's in direct parallel but opposite manifesting ones Denarius as a shadow blanket? Manifesting it as a fiery Phoenix like bird, such as in the wraith deeps. Coincidentally aligned with the theory of mutable time travelers..(which harkens back to a great deal of lore and connections pointed out elsewhere already such as the Phoenix firebird that Mac lets Harry drive in SF)
And ya know.. in all this time nobodies actually tested the theory properly or tried to use it to define their own pieces of the dresdenverse(which is the actual test) and that makes me sad, especially when all i usually hear are negative affirmations. I don't, I can't... as the proverb goes don't let those who can NOT stop those who are actively doing. Cause testing others theory for ourselves is what got both me and Einstein onto the same boat when it comes to peer review of our work(if you know, you know 👀 )