Author Topic: Fae Rankings  (Read 8261 times)

Offline Con

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Fae Rankings
« on: October 14, 2023, 11:32:19 AM »
Found this rereading Summer Knight.

"And your godmother your teacher and guide is the most vicious creature of Mabs Court more than Maeves equal second in strength only to Mab herself."

So Lea is more powerful than Maeve personally, but someone pointed out Maeve probably has the authority to boss her around.

Which got me thinking about how I'd rank the Fae

1.Mothers.
2.Queens.
3. Kringle, Erlking; Erlking has a Goblin Court, but Kringle would get more mortal worship and recognition.
4. Lea, Eldest Gruff; We hadn't met the above two when Aurora said the above quote, and Auroroa's grain of salt anyway, but neither have their own court or near the level of worship strength of Kringle.
5. Ladies; A note here to say they probably have the authority to boss, the 4's around, but would probably loose in a 1v1 duel. Doubt they could boss the 3s as semi independent Dukedomes.
6. Higher level's of Fae;  Sidhe, Elders, Trolls, Ogre's, Goblins. (Depending on their own rank)
7. Foot soldiers; Some of the same species as above but less elite. Mawks, Trolls, Goblins. Or Molly's recruits.
8. Tribes, Swarmers; Little Folk, Sprites, The Spiders or smaller animal fae.


Lemme know if you agree, disagree would reshuffle or add anything. If we get a consensus on any I'll edit the original post with notes on why and who suggested a change.

Offline Mira

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Re: Fae Rankings
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2023, 03:09:03 PM »


  I don't think it is a question so much of individual power levels, but more about the rules they have to follow.  What made Maeve so dangerous in my opinion wasn't her strength, as you point out Lea may well have been able to kick her butt, but once infected and even before, her willingness to break the rules usually governing the Fae.

Offline g33k

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Re: Fae Rankings
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2023, 04:17:29 PM »
... her willingness to break the rules ...

Not just willing, I think, but able.
I think Maeve was willing to break the rules before she got Nemfected -- probably eager, in fact! -- but she wasn't able to.

Offline g33k

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Re: Fae Rankings
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2023, 04:24:10 PM »
"Beatdown" rankings (who will win a brawl) aren't the best way to judge, in the Dresdenverse.

...1.Mothers.
2.Queens.

1.
While the Mothers have tons of power, they're very limited in how they can act.

It appears they knew what Aurora was up to with the WK mantle hidden within StatueLily... but they couldn't even drop a word in the ears of the respective Queens!  That's... kinda feeble, actually!

2.
Mab has a *LOT* more power than Titania... but most of it is tied up at the Outer Gates.

Offline Mira

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Re: Fae Rankings
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2023, 04:49:26 PM »
Not just willing, I think, but able.
I think Maeve was willing to break the rules before she got Nemfected -- probably eager, in fact! -- but she wasn't able to.

That would imply an actual physical block to them breaking the rules.. As in, "the Fae cannot lie," because there is a physical block against it in their brains.  I don't think that is so clear, because we've seen both Lea and Mab twist things so while yeah you cannot say they are lying, they aren't exactly telling the truth either. 
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1.
While the Mothers have tons of power, they're very limited in how they can act.

It appears they knew what Aurora was up to with the WK mantle hidden within StatueLily... but they couldn't even drop a word in the ears of the respective Queens!  That's... kinda feeble, actually!

Not really, I think it is more that the Mothers do have the most power, they are actual forces of nature, let's not forget that shelf of jars and their contents that Harry upset back in Summer Knight.  What was up with Aurora while something they'd notice, they leave dealing with it up to the Queens, Mothers don't have time to micromanage.
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[Mab has a *LOT* more power than Titania... but most of it is tied up at the Outer Gates.

I don't believe that is true either after seeing the both of them at work in Battle Ground.  Mab is simply more assertive than Titania and applies it differently perhaps because it is her Court's turn to guard the Gates.  However lets not forget that was the millennia roles around Titania will once again have her turn at doing the guarding. 

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Fae Rankings
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2023, 08:06:47 PM »
I think four and five mish mash a bit. It's named beings who may hold a mantle but are well known in their own identity too. Older beings. I don't think they're stronger than the lady any more than most of the senior council can absolutely trounce Harry in a fight, but are technically weaker than his brute ability.
Perhaps it's also a bit of fae semantics, the lady has her own court with her own attendants under the Queen as her vassal. Not all vassals are automatically members of the court. That usually just denotes people invited to stay in the capital as part of the courts retinue.
If threes are dukes 4-5(which only exists to represent the new ladies being underpowered compared to older fae imo) both represent Earldom.
The only proper Lady we've seen in action would be Aurora I think, Maeve couldn't even concentrate a simple binding against her own knight without leaking energy everywhere. Victim of her own sloth.

Offline g33k

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Re: Fae Rankings
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2023, 08:22:18 PM »
That would imply an actual physical block to them breaking the rules.. As in, "the Fae cannot lie," because there is a physical block against it in their brains.  I don't think that is so clear, because we've seen both Lea and Mab twist things so while yeah you cannot say they are lying, they aren't exactly telling the truth either.
@Mira -- You keep going back to this, as a thesis.  I've seen you return to it over and over.

But the Fae are entirely letter-of-the-law... there is no such thing, to them, as "the spirit of the law."   If it's not technically a lie, then (to the fae) it's not a lie ... not in any way, shape, or form.

Is it "fair"?  No.
Is it "just"?  No.
Is it "truthful"?  No.

But "cannot tell a lie" is entirely different from "must tell the truth."

Offline g33k

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Re: Fae Rankings
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2023, 08:54:09 PM »
... What was up with Aurora while something they'd notice, they leave dealing with it up to the Queens, Mothers don't have time to micromanage...
I think it goes beyond mere "micromanaging."  They said Aurora was planning something that "must not be" (n.b. "must"), and yet they let it all advance to the point of open warfare, leaving both Queens ignorant.  The Queens had summoned the Overworld above Chicago, manifested the Stone Table (a necessary step for Aurora's plan to succeed); Aurora had brought the SK-mantle to the Table, and only Harry and his "ragtag band" was in her way.

With an existential threat to the balance of the Courts, a hint to one or both of the Queens seems like it might be appropriate...?  Yet evidently they couldn't.  They spent a good long while, actually, chatting with Harry.  Faster and easier (and safer!!!) for each Mother to have let the respective Queen know the skinny, before those two threw their semiannual "turning of the seasons" shindig!

Instead, they let a crazed (& Nemfected!) Summer Lady haul the Knight-Mantle & a sacrificial knife to the Stone Table, and left it to Harry and his (admittedly clever) plans to save both courts.  That's a lot of risk to put onto Harry Dresden's shoulders... if they could have let the Queens know, they would have.

Offline Mira

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Re: Fae Rankings
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2023, 11:07:33 PM »
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But the Fae are entirely letter-of-the-law... there is no such thing, to them, as "the spirit of the law."   If it's not technically a lie, then (to the fae) it's not a lie ... not in any way, shape, or form.

Thank you for making my point!!! ;D  It is also the reason why you should never bargain with the Fae!!!! ;) It is all about their perception of what is true, not what actually is untrue, ergo a lie, but as long as they believe they are telling the truth by their lights, it isn't a lie! ::) However if you bargain with the Fae with the belief that they will be fair to you since they cannot lie, oops, you just got screwed... ::) As Harry has found out trying to deal with Mab.
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I think it goes beyond mere "micromanaging."  They said Aurora was planning something that "must not be" (n.b. "must"), and yet they let it all advance to the point of open warfare, leaving both Queens ignorant.  The Queens had summoned the Overworld above Chicago, manifested the Stone Table (a necessary step for Aurora's plan to succeed); Aurora had brought the SK-mantle to the Table, and only Harry and his "ragtag band" was in her way.

But they did have it in hand, didn't they.  Somehow Harry just happened to make his way to their cottage where he was given the unraveling... You think it an accident that Mab shows up in his office in the early chapter telling him she just took over his contract from his godmother?
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With an existential threat to the balance of the Courts, a hint to one or both of the Queens seems like it might be appropriate...?  Yet evidently they couldn't.  They spent a good long while, actually, chatting with Harry.  Faster and easier (and safer!!!) for each Mother to have let the respective Queen know the skinny, before those two threw their semiannual "turning of the seasons" shindig!

You aren't thinking big picture, it is as much a test of the star born Harry Dresden who might at the BAT be the kingpin to success over the Outside, as stopping catastrophe when the seasons turn .  The Mothers needed to get to know who this mortal is because a lot rides on him.  You will also remember on their second meeting with Harry in Cold Days, Mother Summer took him to the Outer Gates, so he may learn.
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nstead, they let a crazed (& Nemfected!) Summer Lady haul the Knight-Mantle & a sacrificial knife to the Stone Table, and left it to Harry and his (admittedly clever) plans to save both courts.  That's a lot of risk to put onto Harry Dresden's shoulders... if they could have let the Queens know, they would have.

Could they have? Really?  Lets go back to when Mab tells Harry that the Summer Knight has been murdered and the Summer Court was holding her responsible.  Why in the heck would Mab go to an obscure wizard detective in Chicago to save her hide?  Or that Titania would have believed that her infected daughter was behind it?  It wasn't obvious to her that her daughter was infected in the first place... No, it took a neutral party for all the elements of the conspiracy to be rooted out, that took detective work.  As the saying goes, "God helps those who help themselves.."  Does God not help because He is weak? Or there are things we have to work out for ourselves, with His help.  In this case the Mothers help, but only when the lessor Fae, and a certain wizard help themselves first.

Offline g33k

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Re: Fae Rankings
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2023, 03:40:09 AM »
... Mab is simply more assertive than Titania and applies it differently perhaps because it is her Court's turn to guard the Gates.
However lets not forget that was the millennia roles around Titania will once again have her turn at doing the guarding. 
I do not think Summer & Winter take turns on the Outer Gates.
Before it was the Fae, it was one of the Pagan pantheons; I'm pretty sure there's WoJ to the effect that both the Norse and the Greek pantheons had turns, and I presume an older one (Egyptian?  Sumerian?) before that.

Offline Mira

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Re: Fae Rankings
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2023, 09:59:40 AM »
I do not think Summer & Winter take turns on the Outer Gates.
Before it was the Fae, it was one of the Pagan pantheons; I'm pretty sure there's WoJ to the effect that both the Norse and the Greek pantheons had turns, and I presume an older one (Egyptian?  Sumerian?) before that.

  I think it is complicated, just checked out the chapters where Mother Summer takes Harry to the Outer Gates, she says that it is Mab's job to protect the Gates, and Titania's job to protect the rest of us from Mab.  Still at the Gates Summer supplies the medics to treat the wounded, so Winter doesn't do it alone..  It wasn't always Winter, and Winter doesn't do it alone.

Rashid says page 340 Cold Days
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"Always," he said.  "There are always Outsiders trying to tear their way in.  There are always forces in place to stop them. In our age, it is the task of Winter to defend these boundaries, with the help of certain others to support them.

Harry also comes to the conclusion that the White Council has no clue at all about most of this.

Back to the original question as to rankings of the Fae, reread chapters 31 through 34 of Cold Days, you will get a better idea of how the Mothers, Harry called Mother Winter, "a fundamental power of the world,"  rank compared to Mab and Titania and in turn to at that time to Maeve and Lilly. 
« Last Edit: October 15, 2023, 02:12:20 PM by Mira »

Offline g33k

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Re: Fae Rankings
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2023, 04:17:04 PM »
... It is all about their perception of what is true, not what actually is untrue, ergo a lie, but as long as they believe they are telling the truth by their lights, it isn't a lie! ::) ...
Note that the fae don't come anywhere close to practicing the kinds of self-deception and willful blindness that many mortals do.  If the fae "believe" something is true, it's more likely to be true than if a human believes it; but it's a highly-specific, letter-of-the-law "truth" the faeries hold to.  The fae are so literal-minded about "truth" and so specific in their language, that humans (who are used to dealing with "A implies B" as being virtually the same as "A means also-B") regularly get screwed-over in dealings with the fae.  (q.v. "legalese," which also regularly screws-over mortals).

... However if you bargain with the Fae with the belief that they will be fair to you since they cannot lie, oops, you just got screwed... ::) As Harry has found out trying to deal with Mab...
And the Leanansidhe!
But Harry knew better, knew the risks of bargaining with the Fae; he didn't go into those deals expecting the Fae to be "fair" in their dealings.

He just overestimated his own ability to avoid the traps; and of course was in desperate straits...

... But they did have it in hand, didn't they.  Somehow Harry just happened to make his way to their cottage where he was given the unraveling...
No, the Mothers were also in dire straits, here.
Nemfection, you'll remember, is both subtle and powerful; it acts on a level on-par with the Mothers.

With Aurora having knife-in-hand and Lily on the Stone Table, the world -- and both Courts -- were one slash away from disaster.  Not even the Mothers can safely plan that sort of timing, that far in advance; mortals are too random, wild, and unpredictable at the fine-detail level (even if their broader "destiny" sorts of actions largely are predictable).  I suspect the Starborn are even-less "predestined" than most.

... You think it an accident that Mab shows up in his office in the early chapter telling him she just took over his contract from his godmother?
...
Lets go back to when Mab tells Harry that the Summer Knight has been murdered and the Summer Court was holding her responsible.  Why in the heck would Mab go to an obscure wizard detective in Chicago to save her hide?
Not an accident, no...
But also, not an "obscure" wizard detective... not to Mab!!!

My own WAG is that Mab herself was the one who initiated the "Starbabe" plan; it was her intention, all along, to gain a Starborn-Wizard Winter Knight, and she laid her plans a generation in advance.

My Wild-Ass-Guess:

(click to show/hide)
So... Mab is making her plans; and they very much involve Harry, the Starborn wizard.

The Mothers' plans are even subtler than Mab's, but I don't think they wanted to let matters get to the knife-edge they got to; "it all worked out" doesn't mean that was what they had planned, wanted, or would willingly have allowed.  But, the Mothers' hands were tied in this matter; and their lips sealed, unable to give the Queens the info they needed.

... No, it took a neutral party for all the elements of the conspiracy to be rooted out, that took detective work ...
Aurora cleverly hid the truth from the Titania and from Mab.  They each had to name an Emissary, to uncover the truth.  Harry -- and the two Queens -- needed the "detective work."  But when Harry finally worked his way up to the Mothers, it was clear they were "leading the witness," helping him to formulate the right questions to ask.

The Mothers knew the right answer, they had the solution in-hand already.

As I argue above:  the situation had gotten too chancy, the issue too important.  If they could have told the Queens, they would have.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2023, 04:20:59 PM by g33k »

Offline vincentric

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Re: Fae Rankings
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2023, 06:47:23 PM »
When it comes to Aurora, I think you're slightly off.

I think it's highly likely that both Titania and Mab knew that she was Nemfected by the time of SK but were unable or unwilling to take direct action against her.

If someone as cold and calculating as Mab couldn't bring herself to directly put Maeve down, how much harder would it be for Titania, who is governed by her emotions, to destroy Aurora. I think Titania let things go so far to force Mab to stop Aurora. She couldn't face the pain herself. Mab was willing to do it, hence Harry, but she didn't want to kill her niece and further hurt her sister directly. Any future works they had to cooperate on would be more contentious and therefore risky. Plus, though she only shows it in extreme moments, Mab does care. She just won't let caring get in the way of necessity or expediency.

Offline Mira

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Re: Fae Rankings
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2023, 09:08:33 PM »
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Note that the fae don't come anywhere close to practicing the kinds of self-deception and willful blindness that many mortals do.  If the fae "believe" something is true, it's more likely to be true than if a human believes it; but it's a highly-specific, letter-of-the-law "truth" the faeries hold to.  The fae are so literal-minded about "truth" and so specific in their language, that humans (who are used to dealing with "A implies B" as being virtually the same as "A means also-B") regularly get screwed-over in dealings with the fae.  (q.v. "legalese," which also regularly screws-over mortals).

Back to the old question, "what is truth?"  Because as we have seen over and over again, what you are saying it Fae truth might not be the same as human truth, so both can be true and at the same time a lie depending on your point of view.
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But Harry knew better, knew the risks of bargaining with the Fae; he didn't go into those deals expecting the Fae to be "fair" in their dealings.

Only because he had to learn the hard way.. As a frightened sixteen year old boy he bargained with Lea to get the power to beat Justine.. She took full advantage getting three promises from him for as Jim said, "confidence.."  He already had enough power apparently, but she never told him that.
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My own WAG is that Mab herself was the one who initiated the "Starbabe" plan; it was her intention, all along, to gain a Starborn-Wizard Winter Knight, and she laid her plans a generation in advance.

Not just yours, that is easy enough to surmise, who gets a "real" fairy godmother, and a powerful one at that, unless there was a lot of planning in advance.. I also surmise that the only reason Margaret's death curse had any effect on Lord Raith is she had help from Mab or even Mother Winter in setting it up before hand, because she knew that leaving Lord Raith and having a child by Malcolm was most likely a death sentence for her.
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The Mothers knew the right answer, they had the solution in-hand already.

Did they?  Or if the solution was attained too easily it in of itself would create suspicion and make matters worse for Mab.

Offline Mira

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Re: Fae Rankings
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2023, 09:11:09 PM »
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If someone as cold and calculating as Mab couldn't bring herself to directly put Maeve down, how much harder would it be for Titania, who is governed by her emotions, to destroy Aurora. I think Titania let things go so far to force Mab to stop Aurora. She couldn't face the pain herself. Mab was willing to do it, hence Harry, but she didn't want to kill her niece and further hurt her sister directly. Any future works they had to cooperate on would be more contentious and therefore risky. Plus, though she only shows it in extreme moments, Mab does care. She just won't let caring get in the way of necessity or expediency.

I agree, Titania also carried a grudge against Harry, not for killing her daughter, which she knew had to be done, but by having Toot and Company do it with steel..