Why did Dumorne put the mental whamy on when he did?

[Mira]

  Except if you look at Harry's style, he still uses rings, bracelets, firing rods etc..  It was even truer when he was younger, Justin would know that.

[The_Sibelis]

  Except if you look at Harry's style, he still uses rings, bracelets, firing rods etc..  It was even truer when he was younger, Justin would know that.

what does that have to do with Justin, who can call fire to his arm and not burn himself 🤔
And had Elaine to help, who I don't recall needing any focus for the exact same spell in SK.

[KurtinStGeorge]

  I agree that Justin was old school, but I don't think Mab is the mover and shaker here.  I also agree that there is a lot of missing information and when and if we ever find out what and why of it it will turn out to be a lot more complicated than we think.

I'm in total agreement with this statement.  I think Mab only gets personally involved when the stakes are reaching their high point.  Training Harry to be ready to take on Maeve and company.  Taking a direct role in the peace talks she knew were phony to draw out Ethniu and then taking a direct role in the battle that followed.  Mab's behavior reminds me of Julius Caesar at the Battle of Alesia, which lasted three days.  On the final day of the battle when the Gauls were launching their last desperate assault to break Roman lines, Caesar dismounted from his horse, drew his sword and took his place in one of Roman cohorts to show everyone around him that this was the make or break moment.

Mab may have been aware of Harry from a young age, but she probably kept tabs on many star-born individuals.  She might even know more about Elaine's parents than Harry or Elaine do.  Mab almost certainly knew who Margaret LeFey was, but if she ever met Harry's mother face to face, she hasn't let on this was the case.  Mab told Harry, "From the first time I laid eyes on you, I saw a being who had potential for true greatness."  I suspect that was when Harry frustrated Lea during the events in Grave Peril.  (Mab specifically mentioned seeing this event when she first met Harry in Summer Knight.)  It could have been earlier, when Harry defeated Justin, but what was most likely to impress Mab, a powerful young wizard defeating an older overconfident wizard or Harry outwitting one of the most formidable members of the Winter Court?

We don't know how Mab's intelligence network works.  Specifically, we don't know how Mab became aware of Lea's involvement with Margaret LeFay and her son.  We only know that at some point Mab became interested in seeing Harry in action, to make her own judgement about his potential.   

[Mira]

We don't know how Mab's intelligence network works.  Specifically, we don't know how Mab became aware of Lea's involvement with Margaret LeFay and her son.  We only know that at some point Mab became interested in seeing Harry in action, to make her own judgement about his potential.   

It might have been Summer Knight when Mab took on Harry's "contract" with Lea.  The three favors he owed her for the "confidence" she gave him when he was sixteen to take on Justin.  Mab knew that what Lea did was mostly song and dance and that it is no small thing that a sixteen year old apprentice can take on, defeat and kill a fully trained warden of the White Council.

[KurtinStGeorge]

My personal theory is that since we now know hhwb wasn't sent by Justin, he was sent for him.

Which meant that Justin (who had hijacked Maggie's Starborn plan for his own ends) needed Harry and Elaine ready early, which meant abandoning traditional brainwashing/conditioning in favour of Magical alternatives.

Unfortunately for him, hhwb was able to turn Justin's anti-outsider wmd against him.

This is a pretty good guess, but I also question it.  I mean, how do we know Justin didn't call up HWWB?  I like the idea, it does explain why Justin decided he needed to enthrall Harry at that particular moment rather than slowly indoctrinate or slowly enthrall him, but I don't think we have proof the Walker was called up by someone else.  Also, if Justin didn't call up the Outsider, who did?

If you follow this idea to its conclusion, it means there was another player in the game.  A person Harry currently has no clue exists.  Actually, it is possible that Harry has met this person, but he isn't aware that this person played such a significant role in his own life.  You also have to ask why this unknown party called up HWWB, because I don't think it would have been just to go after Justin.  We know that Harry meeting and defeating the Walker is what made Harry decide he had to stop running away from Justin, but did the party who called up HWWB expect that to happen?  That would mean they expected Harry to defeat the Outsider.  Perhaps they were testing Harry, to see if he was all that. 

This was also the event that gave Lea the opportunity to offer Harry a deal, power to defeat Justin in exchange for Harry's loyalty or service.  However, Lea told Harry in Ghost Story that she didn't witness his confrontation with HWWB.  That is why she wanted to hear the story of young Harry's confrontation with the Walker.  I'm going to have to reread that scene between Harry and Lea to see if that is actually what she said or if she was playing word games with him.  Even if Lea didn't witness that confrontation she could have been aware of it if she also had made a deal with this phantom person who called up HWWB.  Than again, that might have violated her agreement to protect Harry so perhaps she wasn't involved.  I suppose it depends on how her agreement with Margaret LeFay was worded.  I find it hard to believe that Lea wasn't looking for an event that would cause a break between Harry and Justin.  Therefore, it is highly likely that Lea knows more about this episode than she let on in her conversation with Harry in Ghost Story.  Of course, that last statement depends on there being another party who called up HWWB.  This is either a really great idea or a rabbit hole to nowhere.

[KurtinStGeorge]

It might have been Summer Knight when Mab took on Harry's "contract" with Lea.  The three favors he owed her for the "confidence" she gave him when he was sixteen to take on Justin.  Mab knew that what Lea did was mostly song and dance and that it is no small thing that a sixteen year old apprentice can take on, defeat and kill a fully trained warden of the White Council.

I think you are reading more significance into my statement "We don't know how Mab's intelligence network works." than is actually there.  All I am saying is we don't know if Mab had her own spies watching various starborn mortals and one of them reported to her about Harry's confrontation with Justin or if Mab had a conversation with Lea and asked her about the starborn mortal Lea was working with or if the Winter Queen has some kind of intellectus that keeps her informed about Lea's plans.  To clarify my original statement, what I am really saying is, it is not important how Mab learned about Harry, only that at some point she became interested in taking the time to watch Harry in action.

Also, I must admit my question about what would impress Mab is a bit of a trick question.  What I really should have said is, I don't think Mab would have taken the time to watch a sixteen year old Harry.  Before his confrontations with HWWB and Justin, Harry hadn't done anything that would have made it worth Mab taking the time to watch him.  Hearing that Harry defeated Justin would have drawn Mab's interest.  I think finding out that a sixteen year old Harry had banished a Walker would have been even more impressive, but Mab couldn't predict what the White Council would do with Harry.  The moment had passed when Mab could see Harry in action and make her own judgement about him.  So, Mab had to wait.  She had to wait to see if Harry would first survive the White Council and then wait for a better time, a time when unfolding events would provide Mab with the opportunity see Harry in action for herself.  I think that time was during Grave Peril.

[Mira]

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Re: Why did Dumorne put the mental whamy on when he did?
« Reply #35 on: Today at 06:15:38 PM »

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Quote from: Mira on Today at 01:00:10 PM

    It might have been Summer Knight when Mab took on Harry's "contract" with Lea.  The three favors he owed her for the "confidence" she gave him when he was sixteen to take on Justin.  Mab knew that what Lea did was mostly song and dance and that it is no small thing that a sixteen year old apprentice can take on, defeat and kill a fully trained warden of the White Council.


I think you are reading more significance into my statement "We don't know how Mab's intelligence network works." than is actually there.  All I am saying is we don't know if Mab had her own spies watching various starborn mortals and one of them reported to her about Harry's confrontation with Justin or if Mab had a conversation with Lea and asked her about the starborn mortal Lea was working with or if the Winter Queen has some kind of intellectus that keeps her informed about Lea's plans.  To simply my original statement, what I am really saying is, it is not important how Mab learned about Harry, only that at some point she became interested in taking the time to watch Harry in action.

No, I don't think I am, I'm following up on your comment that Mab waits until it's to her advantage to make her move.  I think it is important as to how Mab learned about Harry, I think she knew about him even before his actual conception, star born family planning.  However I believe she washed her hands of everything until the baby developed into a man.  Interesting don't you think that though Lea secured that bargain with sixteen year old Harry, no action was taken for repayment until Mab had need of him, then she took over the contract at the beginning of Summer Knight.  After further observing his work, which included unusually the loyalty of some of the wee Fae Folk, then she began to lean rather heavily on Harry for payment, also mentioning that she wanted him as her Winter Knight.  Note that she was also willing to go without a Knight for a number of years until she got what she wanted.  In other words Mab doesn't pick the apple off the tree until it is ripe and ready for picking..  She also is careful to look for worms in the apple..

[The_Sibelis]

🤔 Leah took what actions against him she could actually, this we already know. Constantly hounding him anytime he went to the NN, chasing him in the mortal world whenever possible. Iirc Harry had been avoiding her for years when she's introduced.
An she really couldn't have taken greater action against him, when she's already made a deal to secure his physical and spiritual well-being. Margaret knew Leah's limitations, she made sure to put him just beyond her potential wrath in the future.
Leah tried to play him per a deal, but couldn't forcibly collect without renegading on another. Mab had no such issues.